Raid Completion Counters

[airbornerangers]

was thinking of a comeback to what should be the greatest mmo on the web!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you for making that decision easy turbine, as a former fanboi you sure do make me cringe at your decisions, hehehe





oh and ibtl

[EllisDee37]

JIt sounds to me like a lot more Epic runs will be done with the new system instead of gaming it by running 19 heroic 1 epic for final reward. Makes sense to me.

Uh, no. First off, nobody ever did that. The reason nobody ever did that is because the 20th lists aren't "Epic" or "Heroic." They have always been the same regardless of what difficulty you ran the 20 completions on. And that's STILL the case. The devs have no plan to implement epic 20th lists.

Sounds to me like you truly do not understand the change. It is nothing but pure nerf to pretty much everybody's raid counters (those who don't raid at all are of course immune) with literally zero benefit for anyone.

And worse, because they have no plans to implement epic 20th lists this change serves no purpose whatsoever.

[EllisDee37]

Devs, you can make it right if you do the following:

First, fix the actual counters
Second, globally apply "total raid completions" (regardless of difficulty) to both the heroic and epic counters for everyone.

So if someone had 18 VONs before the change, and now shows 17/1, set them to 18/18.

[WanderingGrump]

The GMs are working to help Caught in the Web runners who are in this predicament between now and when the patch is applied so that you get the list, and then when patch comes it goes to the right total number to avoid getting "skipped".

Are we supposed to contact a GM before the raid, while still in the raid at completion or just after it's completion?

[Armus]

I'm looking at the timers for Vault of Night - I've never done this on heroic in yet the timers are 6H/1E. Failing to correct this is like highway robbery. Please tell me someone will get this straight. If you are going to err, you should err on the side of the player. Or have you forgotten who pays the bills?

[djl]

I'm looking at the timers for Vault of Night - I've never done this on heroic in yet the timers are 6H/1E. Failing to correct this is like highway robbery. Please tell me someone will get this straight. If you are going to err, you should err on the side of the player. Or have you forgotten who pays the bills?

Seems like they just don't care anymore. :\

[Sorffe]

UPDATE: We have investigated the raid and quest completion counts and have identified the following regarding the counts:

- The number of heroic completion and epic completions for the Caught in the Web raid are both incorrectly showing as completions from Fall of Truth. We will address this error in an upcoming patch.
- Completions of Epic difficulty that occurred prior to Menace of the Underdark (Update 14) cannot be distinguished from heroic and are treated as heroic completions. You are most likely to experience this if you had played "epic" difficulty from the original Epic system back before the quest entrance UI was split into Epic/Heroic tabs, and Epic Character levels were introduced (suspects include: Vault of Night, Demon Queen, Chronoscope). Epic runs that occurred between MOTU and Shadowfell should properly show in the Epic side of the count. This will not be corrected.
- Completions of Epic difficulty non-raid quests that occurred prior to Update 19 Patch 1 are listed as heroic in the completion counts (e.g. Phiarlan Carnival). Completions after U19 Patch 1 will appear in the correct column. This will not be corrected.

We apologize for the confusion this causes to our raiders.

This sounds like some halfway explanation, which may or may not suffice, but for one glaring problem. I began playing DDO AFTER the Menace expansion, and all my raid completions are in the "new" raid system, yet all of my raid completions are all messed up. This explanation does NOT explain why my raid completions are being reported incorrectly.

[Anthorin1]

If I am reading this correctly, it says that my count should be correct for any VON raids I've run since MOTU came out? If that's so, then I respectfully disagree. My count after the patch showed VON Heroic 9 / EPIC 1, but I have definitely run more than 1 epic VON this year, so well after MOTU came out (not sure when I ran the heroic completion/s)

Agreed. Mine shows: "The Vault of Night : Heroic: 23 / Epic : 2" And I dont think I have ever done it on Heroic.

[bazooka99]

Just a thought, instead of just berrating the gms and game designers, why not try making constructive remarks instead. Yes some people are gonna lose some work with the new system. O well, it happens with every patch. there is gear that changed with the new patch, my old unique loot with deathward isnt as effective as new DW. new DW is still cool though. It would be nice if they could track perfectly what everyone ran, but the system was not designed to do that yet. Since i could claim all my runs were epic elite, and they cant prove they weren't, they are doing the best they can with the data they have.

It sounds to me like a lot more Epic runs will be done with the new system instead of gaming it by running 19 heroic 1 epic for final reward. Makes sense to me. It also lets them add cool new Epic end rewards knowing that those that get them will have earned them. So I'm gonna be the only one to say, nice work on the new system, it sounds like it has potential. hope you put in some cool Epic 20th runs rewards too, since it will be far harder to get them.

There's a difference between adding gear/rewards that are better than older gear/rewards, and taking away what someone has worked toward/spent Turbine points on. Suppose a capped toon has been working on getting an SoS before he TR's. He's run, say, a dozen epic VoN raids and spent 1000 TP on raid timer bypasses, not to mention a month of time. Now, thanks to this patch, he'll have to find 8 heroic VoN raids that are willing to accept a capped toon, and he'll be running a raid that (apart from a chance at an SoS) is useless to him. So what good did those 1000 TP and weeks of waiting to TR do him?

What I would suggest is using raid completion tokens (much like the tokens of the twelve) that are awarded upon a successful raid completion. Epic raid completion tokens may be traded for heroic completion tokens of the same type, but not vice-versa. They can be turned in individually to count as an epic or heroic completion (depending on which type was turned in). This system would allow the toon in the above example to continue running Epic VoN while still working toward the 20th he'd been aiming for in the first place.

What I would like is for everyone to be given a heroic raid completion token for each of their completions made prior to the patch. This avoids the problem of removing people's progress toward their 20th, and it also avoids the problem of giving epic completions to those who've never earned them. Everyone gets exactly what they thought they were getting when they ran those epic raids before the patch: progress toward a heroic 20th list.

[Flavilandile]

UPDATE: We have investigated the raid and quest completion counts and have identified the following regarding the counts:

- Completions of Epic difficulty that occurred prior to Menace of the Underdark (Update 14) cannot be distinguished from heroic and are treated as heroic completions. You are most likely to experience this if you had played "epic" difficulty from the original Epic system back before the quest entrance UI was split into Epic/Heroic tabs, and Epic Character levels were introduced (suspects include: Vault of Night, Demon Queen, Chronoscope). Epic runs that occurred between MOTU and Shadowfell should properly show in the Epic side of the count. This will not be corrected.

This is plainly wrong.

I have a character that shows 43 Heroic and 1 Epic VON6.

He definitely did more than 1 single VON 6 since last year. ( I'm fairly sure he did at least 8 )

Edit for details : he did one single VON6 at level in 2010, when we were waiting for our European Characters to be dumped on G-Land, all his other VON6 were done at Epic Level, both before MOTU and after MOTU... So maybe you have mixed up your counters and inverted them.

It's also valid ( at a lesser extend ) for Chronoscope... I can't say for ADQ, as I won't do that raid unless I'm roaring drunk as I despise the stupid DQ Part 1 in two parties mechanism.

And that's for only one character... I haven't checked the others yet.

[EllisDee37]

it also avoids the problem of giving epic completions to those who've never earned them

That's not a problem to avoid. There is no benefit for epic completions over heroic completions when it comes to 20th lists. There is only one 20th list per raid, and it's wholly irrelevant whether your 20 completions were all heroic, all epic, or some combination. No matter what you still get the same 20th list.

There is no possible benefit from a heroic-only player getting credit for epic runs. None.

This change just cost everyone who raids some of their completions toward their next 20th list. For no reason whatsoever, it turns out, because the 20th lists haven't changed.

The appropriate remedy is to give us our completion counters for both heroic and epic so that we can continue on toward our 20ths whichever way we prefer. I know I for one can't imagine running heroic VON5/6 when epic gives you all that tasty xp, so I'd hate to see all the credit given to heroic instead of epic. By the same token, someone else who could only handle heroic shouldn't be forced to run epic.

Give us both. Start us off with out current actual counter applied to both heroic and epic. The worst that happens is somebody gets an easier shot at a second 20th list. So what? That's the price you pay for poorly thought out systems changes during a rushed-out patch.

EDIT: I think what really bothers me about this is that U19 doesn't even have a raid. Not only did we not get new raids, now they're borking the 20th list counters for every raid still in the game. I mean, seriously, what the heck are they thinking? Why was it so important to change raid mechanics when we haven't gotten a new raid in like 6 months?

[BOgre]

EDIT: I think what really bothers me about this is that U19 doesn't even have a raid. Not only did we not get new raids, now they're borking the 20th list counters for every raid still in the game. I mean, seriously, what the heck are they thinking? Why was it so important to change raid mechanics when we haven't gotten a new raid in like 6 months?

Valid question.

[djl]

That's not a problem to avoid. There is no benefit for epic completions over heroic completions when it comes to 20th lists. There is only one 20th list per raid, and it's wholly irrelevant whether your 20 completions were all heroic, all epic, or some combination. No matter what you still get the same 20th list.

There is no possible benefit from a heroic-only player getting credit for epic runs. None.

This change just cost everyone who raids some of their completions toward their next 20th list. For no reason whatsoever, it turns out, because the 20th lists haven't changed.

The appropriate remedy is to give us our completion counters for both heroic and epic so that we can continue on toward our 20ths whichever way we prefer. I know I for one can't imagine running heroic VON5/6 when epic gives you all that tasty xp, so I'd hate to see all the credit given to heroic instead of epic. By the same token, someone else who could only handle heroic shouldn't be forced to run epic.

Give us both. Start us off with out current actual counter applied to both heroic and epic. The worst that happens is somebody gets an easier shot at a second 20th list. So what? That's the price you pay for poorly thought out systems changes during a rushed-out patch.

EDIT: I think what really bothers me about this is that U19 doesn't even have a raid. Not only did we not get new raids, now they're borking the 20th list counters for every raid still in the game. I mean, seriously, what the heck are they thinking? Why was it so important to change raid mechanics when we haven't gotten a new raid in like 6 months?

Quoted for Truth.

I can honestly see people quitting over this if it is not resolved in a timely manner. Most of the people who do raids focus on their completions, and sometimes even buy bypasses to get to that magic number more quickly.

A lot of people postpone TRs when they are close to a list so they don't miss out, and now those people will have to wait an indefinite amount of time to even do their TRs, unless they want to lose out on all the work they put in for 20th lists. So, what is there to do other than take a break from the game until it's fixed?

Then there are players like me, who were 5 or less completions away from a list who have been searching for a particular piece of loot for a very long time. To us, suddenly having almost all of that work taken away for no apparent reason other than incredibly short-sighted project management, it is incredibly disheartening. It makes me question why I continue to play a game where the devs decide on a whim to push out an unnecessary half-finished new system as part of a PATCH.

As several people have said, the best solution... the ONLY solution is to add together heroic/epic raids and then set the sum to be equal for both. This way, people's work is restored. Time is of the essence-- this can't be another "soon" fix. The longer it drags out, the less faith your customers will have in you and the more likely it is they will abandon you.

[Hakushi]

While you're working on a fix for the list, it might be the time to split the list, raids and non-raids: /quests completions and /raid completions. The list is very long.

[snakelord2]

This is flat out WRONG, you need a better QA team. I have been TRing for the past 2.5 years, and didn't even play MOTU when it came out. I finally did my last TR at the beginning of this year and starting running raids with my current TR a few months ago. ALL my ADQ runs have been on EN/EH/EE yet my counter says the following:
Against the Demon Queen : Heroic: 16 / Epic : 0
All these runs were done in between the MOTU and Shadowfell packs on epic yet are reported as heroic, so your statement above is false. Checked with my brother last night who is in my same shoes, has been TRing until early this year and ran all the Epic DQ raids with me. His counter shows Heroic 19 / Epic 0, and he was waiting to run his 20th epic run until this 20th raid loot issue got fixed. He ran the raid last night for his 20th time on epic and got ZERO named items. To add insult to injury I ran EH CITW with him after that and he pulled the Twilight staff which wasn't even upgraded even though it was an EH run.

Way to break something that wasn't broken, and way to misdiagnose the problem and offer no fix.

EDIT ONE: same problem with VON which shows The Vault of Night : Heroic: 3 / Epic : 1. I started running that only in the last two months and I have never run it on heroic.

EDIT TWO: your system is still borked, since I ran ADQ EH last night and it was counted as a heroic run.

sounds like you need to run it as EE not EH

[visibleman]

This will not be corrected as there is no way for us or the system to distinguish whether those pre-MOTU runs were Epic or not (back then everything in the back end was just marking off as the same thing in the data).

I think you will find that the vast majority of players will run a quest/raid on Heroic Elite no more than a few times (if there are items they) need or possible only ONCE (for the favour). After that it will only run be on EPIC because we are trying to get the **** seals and shards (and Epic Tokens)!

And back the reward list was the same for Epic and Heroic... Oh wait a minute, its STILL the same. You haven't actually changed that yet.

I am absolutely 100% certain that you would not get a single complaint if you credited all the completions against the Epic side.

"its too hard for us to fix" really is a feeble excuse.

Completions of Epic difficulty that occurred prior to Menace of the Underdark (Update 14) cannot be distinguished from heroic and are treated as heroic completions.

I had 57 completions of CITW, now its is split 26/31. Are you are saying that I somehow managed to do 26 of those completions BEFORE the raid ever existed on Live??

If this is Turbines level of Maths ability, no wonder there are so many bugs.

I'll say it again FEEBLE EXCUSE.

I have however used a lot of timer bypasses. Perhaps it is counting runs that were done on a bypass as heroic??

BTW, FoT hasn't affected this total for me. My FoT completions are showing correctly as 0/31.

The GMs are working to help Caught in the Web runners who are in this predicament between now and when the patch is applied so that you get the list, and then when patch comes it goes to the right total number to avoid getting "skipped".

Do your GM's work round the clock? Otherwise this won't help players in Europe or on the other side of the world.



If you are going to implement EPIC rewards lists, I would like to see a wall of Seals and Shards to choose from - absolutely NO random junk items in the list. Or better still Pre-Epic'd item (Yes, give me Epic Time-Sensing Goggles on my 20th EPIC Chronoscope). Only this will make people forgive you for this disaster.

[Target-Practice100]

Seems like they just don't care anymore. :\

The simple answer is they don't. Not about the players and not about the game. Its now just about the money. This has become very clear in the past few months, and especially from the carnage to player's toons from the new enhancement system, which is why some of my friends have given up and gone over to Guild Wars 2. And the way things are now I won't be far behind them, because I am seriously fed up with Turbine's attitude to the game and it's treatment of the players. A group of us have suspected for some time now they have been secretly inserting and testing new things in the game, and this shows how right we were. Question now is, what else have they put in to screw up our game that they have not told us about? I suspect any number of things to screw us over and ruin our game. For myself, I see things very simply and clearly - the only people who do not understand the game are the developers and Turbine management. It is they who are ruining our game and driving players out. I have decided not to spend any more money on DDO, until Turbine shows they are taking the game and players seriously again by fixing up the mess they have made with the game. When its only about money for them, that's the only way to make them understand a very simple fact - WE ARE NOT HAPPY TURBINE, NOT HAPPY AT ALL! Enough is enough Turbine, and I have just about had enough, and I know for a fact I am not the only one.

[PurpleTimb]

While you're working on a fix for the list, it might be the time to split the list, raids and non-raids: /quests completions and /raid completions. The list is very long.

This is the kind of fix that should be getting developer time. How about developing a graphic in game window that shows quest completions, with tabs for raids vs. quests and is searchable and sortable. If that's too much work, then just give us separate commands to show the raids and quests and put them in some kind of order that makes them more readable.

Instead, what we got was a 'fix' that breaks raid completions, invalidates countless hours of players' efforts and makes a large percentage of the player base avoid running raids simply so that if some time in the future the devs decide to implement a new feature we may have some of the tools needed for it already in the game (assuming we can get them working correctly by then).

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. I don't understand how 'fixes' are prioritized to be worked on for this game. It often seems that top priority is always given to random things that serve only to make the game less fun and less rewarding to play. I love this game, but for the last year I've felt like someone at Turbine is going out of their way to try to convince me not to.

[Stoner81]

There's a difference between adding gear/rewards that are better than older gear/rewards, and taking away what someone has worked toward/spent Turbine points on.

*cough*

Guild decay.

*cough*

Stoner81.

[Qaliya]

I can honestly see people quitting over this if it is not resolved in a timely manner. Most of the people who do raids focus on their completions, and sometimes even buy bypasses to get to that magic number more quickly.

I'm generally very much an anti-doomer around here, but I can see it as well. Heck, if I was an end-game player and I was on the fence about continuing to play DDO, this might well have pushed me over it.

Then there are players like me, who were 5 or less completions away from a list who have been searching for a particular piece of loot for a very long time. To us, suddenly having almost all of that work taken away for no apparent reason other than incredibly short-sighted project management, it is incredibly disheartening. It makes me question why I continue to play a game where the devs decide on a whim to push out an unnecessary half-finished new system as part of a PATCH.

I started programming in the early 1980s and have degrees in both the computer field and management, and I'm utterly baffled at the decision-making that happened here. It's pretty much a no-brainer that you don't try to roll out new features in patches. If you're going to violate that maxim, you certainly don't do it unless they are extremely simple and extremely well-tested, and this was neither. To do it in a rush patch before a holiday weekend is well beyond my understanding.