Having Trouble with Sacred Defender Tree

[FranOhmsford]

Second I see no aura under the SD line that increases strength.

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

[Krelar]

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

That's not an aura, that is a stance improvement.
The aura's are the +to AC, saves and spell resistance.

If it was an aura then 1 Paladin would be in high demand for a lot of groups. "Quick get a pally so we all get +6 to STR"

[Lorianna]

-Spellshield Aura: Are you using a spell resistance item? Is the bonus making a noticeable difference for you? I'm in the middle of a TR, so I haven't had a chance to test this yet at high level. I'm intrigued to see if you can get spell resistance to a noticeable level, but still a bit skeptical.

Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes.

[Ralmeth]

Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes.

Thanks for the feedback! That's very interesting This could make going Drow more attractive for Paladins overall. When you get up to even higher level, I would be interested to hear how well your SR does for you

[bsquishwizzy]

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

First, as someone noted, that’s not an aura.

Secondly, I took and maxed that enhancement by lvl 19.

Third, I was able to do that, and most of the SD tree, AND a good chunk of the Human racial tree to get almost exactly what I wanted…which was my 20% healing amp.

Did I get my smites back? No. Am I bummed about it? Kinda. Did I take a loss on my build? Absolutely not. I got extended PRR, extended HP, some protection when I am tripped, the elimination of the speed deduction when I am in stance (and in many cases, that is something very nice to have), and a couple of other things.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am in no way an expert on paladins, but I do know what I need for my tank toon, and I wasn’t exactly disappointed with what I got.

The only major complaint that I’ve seen about the paladin SD tree is the shield requirement for a lot of these bonuses. It basically killed the part-time DPS and part-time shield tank focus that a lot of paladin players had. And the criticism on sticking to straight S&B for SD killing viable DPS for a pally is completely understandable.

However, given my poking around in the class and some of the benefits I’ve noticed from the past enhancements to the new ones, I do not see where your criticism of maxing the SD tree is valid. It sounds to me like even if you could max the tree, you wouldn’t want to anyways because you want the smites in the KotC / HotD tree. So you have no intention of maxing the tree in the first place. Hence, I don’t see where your complaint is justified.

I can see why people would want more powerful smites incorporated into SD, but then they’d have to remove some of the other nice things you get in SD to balance the PrE.

[Ralmeth]

First, as someone noted, that’s not an aura.

Secondly, I took and maxed that enhancement by lvl 19.

Third, I was able to do that, and most of the SD tree, AND a good chunk of the Human racial tree to get almost exactly what I wanted…which was my 20% healing amp.

Did I get my smites back? No. Am I bummed about it? Kinda. Did I take a loss on my build? Absolutely not. I got extended PRR, extended HP, some protection when I am tripped, the elimination of the speed deduction when I am in stance (and in many cases, that is something very nice to have), and a couple of other things.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am in no way an expert on paladins, but I do know what I need for my tank toon, and I wasn’t exactly disappointed with what I got.

The only major complaint that I’ve seen about the paladin SD tree is the shield requirement for a lot of these bonuses. It basically killed the part-time DPS and part-time shield tank focus that a lot of paladin players had. And the criticism on sticking to straight S&B for SD killing viable DPS for a pally is completely understandable.

However, given my poking around in the class and some of the benefits I’ve noticed from the past enhancements to the new ones, I do not see where your criticism of maxing the SD tree is valid. It sounds to me like even if you could max the tree, you wouldn’t want to anyways because you want the smites in the KotC / HotD tree. So you have no intention of maxing the tree in the first place. Hence, I don’t see where your complaint is justified.

I can see why people would want more powerful smites incorporated into SD, but then they’d have to remove some of the other nice things you get in SD to balance the PrE.

It still seems weird, by design, that there are lots of goodies in the Defender tree, but as you're going to want some DPS from the Knight tree, you are left needing to pick and choose which of the goodies in the Defender tree to go with, but whatever. It is what it is, and I don't really mind.

To the OP, and everyone else out there, IMHO below are the base set of enhancements to take from the Knight and Defender tree. This is based on my play-testing to date, as well as my experience in playing Paladin tanks for over 7 years now. These represent the minimum I would spend in each tree.

Knight Tree
-Slayer of Evil I and II - 2 APs - Core
-Courage of Heave & Improved Courage of Heaven - 2 APs - Core
-Extra Turns - 2 APs - level 1 (this is just for prereq for level 2, any other 2 APs would work at level 1)
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 1
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 2
-Divine Might - 6 APs - level 2
-Exhalted Smite - 6 APs - level 3
-Divine Sacrifice - 3 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 4
------------------------------------
29 APs

Defender Tree
-Holy Bastion through Glorious Stand - 5 APs - Core
-Extra Lay on Hands - 3 APs - level 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / PRR - 3 APs - level 1
-Bulwark Aura / Sacred Armor Mastery (at low levels, Bulwark Aura will be better, but once you get a good dodge item and/or you can fill out the max dex. bonus at higher levels, switch to Sacred Armor Mastery) - 3 APs - level 2 or 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / Hate - 3 APs - level 2
-Greater Sacred Defense / Strength - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Hit Points - 3 APs - level 4 (Note: this is bugged at the moment and you will temporarily lose the bonus hit points when you swap weapons, even with a shield equipped)
-Swift Defense - 1 AP - level 4
-Reinforced Defense / Armor - 6 APs - level 4
--------------------------------------------------------
30 APs

So in total, that's 59 total APs, leaving 21 more to spend in a different class or racial tree, or more in the defender or knight tree. There are a lot of other good choices. Personally, I am leaning away from the aura enhancements (Bulwark, Resistance and Spellshield) because 1) a Paladin's aura is primarily for the benefit of the Paladin, and 2) I think you get a better bang for your buck/AP elsewhere, such as tier 5 defender stuff, or perhaps more in the Knight tree. Also, if you're going to use a tower shield you'll want Sacred Shield Mastery maxed. I just don't see having room for the aura enhancements, unless based on Lorianna's feedback, you go Drow and max out spell resistance, which sounds like an intriguing idea

*Edit: I've removed Improved Sacred Defense / Saves - 3 APs - level 3, from the list of required enhancements. After play testing, this is a nice to have for a Pally tank, but not required.

In any event, I hope this helps.

[Whitering]

Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes.

It's not everyday you see someone born yesterday that can actually write

Just be happy.

I find all of this illuminating because I was going to TR into a Pally next, and I still might because I only have to hit 20 until I am finished TRing, so I don't have to worry too much about Epic Elite, just farming enough tokens for the TR, which can be done in a few easy challenges with the right clickies.

[ReaperAlexEU]

It still seems weird, by design, that there are lots of goodies in the Defender tree, but as you're going to want some DPS from the Knight tree, you are left needing to pick and choose which of the goodies in the Defender tree to go with, but whatever. It is what it is, and I don't really mind.

To the OP, and everyone else out there, IMHO below are the base set of enhancements to take from the Knight and Defender tree. This is based on my play-testing to date, as well as my experience in playing Paladin tanks for over 7 years now. These represent the minimum I would spend in each tree.

Knight Tree
-Slayer of Evil I and II - 2 APs - Core
-Courage of Heave & Improved Courage of Heaven - 2 APs - Core
-Extra Turns - 2 APs - level 1 (this is just for prereq for level 2, any other 2 APs would work at level 1)
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 1
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 2
-Divine Might - 6 APs - level 2
-Exhalted Smite - 6 APs - level 3
-Divine Sacrifice - 3 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 4
------------------------------------
29 APs

Defender Tree
-Holy Bastion through Glorious Stand - 5 APs - Core
-Extra Lay on Hands - 3 APs - level 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / PRR - 3 APs - level 1
-Bulwark Aura / Sacred Armor Mastery (at low levels, Bulwark Aura will be better, but once you get a good dodge item and/or you can fill out the max dex. bonus at higher levels, switch to Sacred Armor Mastery) - 3 APs - level 2 or 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / Hate - 3 APs - level 2
-Improved Sacred Defense / Saves - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Strength - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Hit Points - 3 APs - level 4 (Note: this is bugged at the moment and you will temporarily lose the bonus hit points when you swap weapons, even with a shield equipped)
-Swift Defense - 1 AP - level 4
-Reinforced Defense / Armor - 6 APs - level 4
--------------------------------------------------------
33 APs

So in total, that's 62 total APs, leaving 18 more to spend in a different class or racial tree, or more in the defender or knight tree. There are a lot of other good choices. Personally, I am leaning away from the aura enhancements (Bulwark, Resistance and Spellshield) because 1) a Paladin's aura is primarily for the benefit of the Paladin, and 2) I think you get a better bang for your buck/AP elsewhere, such as tier 5 defender stuff, or perhaps more in the Knight tree. Also, if you're going to use a tower shield you'll want Sacred Shield Mastery maxed. I just don't see having room for the aura enhancements, unless based on Lorianna's feedback, you go Drow and max out spell resistance, which sounds like an intriguing idea

In any event, I hope this helps.

interesting point about aura vs mastery. i do want the saves from the aura but when it came to buying back points in AC i was trying to be careful to get bang for buck. looks like i missed a trick as mastery lets me make more use from my DEX compared to aura which i took in a no-brainer way.

i took the 50% AC bonus to armour and ignored the shield as it represented less bang per buck.

i realised the human healing AMP was worse than the knight healing amp, due to the smites i already had knight unlocked saving me 1 point for the 1st tier and god knows how many for the 2nd tier compared to human. in the end i took human tier 1 for 3 points total cost with my spare AP's.

i also maxed out the tier 5 PRR enhancement, tier 2 matching my pre-update stats and tier 3 for a nice boost.

after matching stats from before the update i had 13 AP free to spend, so i got a few luxury items like the -50 incap +250 auto-heal and a 2 min divine might. my first run through on lama left me feeling very much like the OP. my frugal run through on live left me with 13 AP spare and an "ooh-shiney" moment as i picked up some treats .

i think the key for me was not trying to max the SD tree but trying to match my old stats.

for reference here are my current enhancements:

human core 1 [3AP total]
human spell power boost
healing amp

knight core 4 [28AP total]
extra turn 2
extra smite 3
divine might 3
divine sacrifice 3
vigor healing amp 2
exalted smite 3

defender core 6 [49AP total]
LoH 3
durable defence 3
bulwark aura 3
resilience defence 3
resistance aura 3
inciting defence 3
strong defence 3
char 2
reinforced armour 3
tenacious defence 3
harboured by light 3
hardy defence 3

and for comparison this is my layout under the old system:

paladin armour class boost
paladin weapons of good
silver flame exorcism
follower of the silver flame
human adaptability char
human improved recovery II
paladin courage of good
paladin bulwark of good IV
paladin focus of good
paladin resistance of good III
paladin divine might III
paladin divine righteousness
paladin divine sacrifice II
paladin exalted smite II
paladin extra lay on hands III
paladin extra smite evil III
paladin defenders of siberys III
racial toughness II
improved intimidate I
paladin devotion II
paladin charisma I
paladin toughness II

i've not LRed yet as i plan to fiddle with the new system some more before working out how to optimise my whole build around it. skills will be the biggest pain as they are already tight and now heal is looking like a nice boost.