What do you NEED to be a successful rogue? (Please critique my build plan?)

[mna]

Hi all,

I keep wanting to try stealth and "rogue" tactics, but am not really willing to completely forgo self-sufficiency and tactical options - so what do I actually need to be able to function as a rogue, through to hopefully at least Epic Hard some day? (If I ever get that far...)

I'm sure I can't get Assassinate DC high enough if I bring in "enough" self-healing, so I won't even try.
Going dex-based halfling would reduce the number of stats to keep high, and help with AC... but I could get headshot and

So, with that in mind, with 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 wizard I apparently could use dex for to-hit and damage with light weapons and scimitars, dex to hit / int to damage with crossbows, plenty of self-healing if halfling, and access to wizard wands without UMD. I can keep sneak, trap and lock skills maxed, but how much saves do I need?


Current plan is:

Halfling, 13 rogue / 6 ranger / 1 wizard
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 16
wis&cha 8
level ups into dex and a +2 int tome (unopened birthday box).


Feats chosen:
Point Blank Shot (1), FE undead (ranger), Weapon Finesse/Dodge (swap when no longer needing Finesse), Least Dragonmark, Maximize (wizard bonus, for the dragonmark), Sap, FE construct (ranger), Imp Crit slashing (main melee weapon being scimitar), GTWF, Slippery Mind, Imp Crit ranged, Improved Evasion.

Would it work better if I'd fit in, say, Precision instead of... Sap or Dodge? Something else?

Enhancements planned would end up as,

Deepwood Stalker 32 ap:

1 Far Shot 1 ap
3 Increased Empathy 3*1 ap
2 Versatile Empathy 2*1 ap
1 Sneak Attack 1 ap
(1 Improved Weapon Finesse 1 ap // drop when we take Graceful Death and replace Finesse with Dodge)
1 Called Shot 1 ap
2 Aimed Shot 2 ap

4 Empathic Healing 2*2 ap // Lesser Vigor SLA
6 Stealthy 3*2 ap

2 Leg Shot 2 ap
6 Faster Sneaking 3*2 ap
2 Skill boost 1*2 ap

2 Head Shot 2 ap



Tempest 11 ap:
1 Shield of Whirling Steel 1 ap
2 Whirling Blades 2 ap
2 Improved Reaction 2*1 ap
1 Tempest 1 ap
1 Improved Reaction 1*1 ap
2 Improved Parry/Dodge 2*1 / 1*2 ap

1 Graceful Death 1 ap // should allow dex to-hit AND to-dam in melee without Finesse


Halfling 13 ap:

1 Halfling Luck 1 1 ap
3 Dragonmark Focus 3*1 ap
3 Halfling Cunning 3*1 ap
2 Lesser Dragonmarks 2 ap
2 Halfling Dexterity 1 2 ap

2 Greater Dragonmarks 2 ap

Wizard 1 ap:

1 Archmage, SLA: Invisibility


Mechanic 23 ap:

1 Arbalester 1 ap
3 Mechanics 3*1 ap
3 Awareness 3*1 ap
2 Crossbow Training 1 2 ap
1 Tanglefoot 1 ap

1 Targeting Sights 1 ap
2 Crossbow Training 2 2 ap
2 Crossbow Training 3 2 ap
3 UMD 3*1 ap
2 +1 int/dex 2 ap

1 Improved Detection 1 ap
2 Crossbow Training 4 2 ap

== 80 ap total.


Any suggestions on whether this could be improved, or is it just too gimp for words?

[MalarKan]

it looks like you have plenty of it already figured out nice

Altho, i would sugest you dont forget to put points into Heal skill as you level up. I might sound like a broken record, but probably taking cleric instead of wizard would be better, since with one leve of cleric you can take the 'Empower Heal spell' feat (+75 spellpower); also, clerics currently have Wand/Scroll mastery in tier1 enhancements tree. Since you are aiming towards survivability on epic hard/elite high/end game content, you should consider investing in 2 things,, other than just dps: avoidance and damage mitigation.

Due the kind of build you are making, the only feat that would help you with damage mitigation is Combat Expertice (2nd tier of L'dreadnought, gives you +20 prr while C.E. is active). Since 13 rog levels, you will have improved uncanny dodge bonuses, so dodge should be fine. For the rest, if you spend skill points wisely, its all about gaming skills and gathering apropiate gear. full ranks in search, spot, dd, heal, bluff, is not hard to attain, but without apropiate gear and bonuses it will be impossible to reach a 65 search for example.

One more thing, for avoidance, either buy displacement scrolls or make greensteel clickies. Some people might suggest you taking monk levels instead (dark monk incoporeal thingies)

but i like how you have your build figured out and oyu know what you want

Take advantage that there is no longer THE optimal builds anymore... posibilities are limitless now

cheers!

[mna]

it looks like you have plenty of it already figured out nice

Altho, i would sugest you dont forget to put points into Heal skill as you level up. I might sound like a broken record, but probably taking cleric instead of wizard would be better, since with one leve of cleric you can take the 'Empower Heal spell' feat (+75 spellpower); also, clerics currently have Wand/Scroll mastery in tier1 enhancements tree. Since you are aiming towards survivability on epic hard/elite high/end game content, you should consider investing in 2 things,, other than just dps: avoidance and damage mitigation.

Yes, I know Emp Heal would be nice. However, that cleric level would mean at least a net loss of one feat - what would you suggest I drop, and then which one should I switch to Emp Heal?

(Maximize on the other two Dmarks and the SLA gets twice the benefit of Emp Heal, and I do get the DWS extra devotion + maxed Heal. But, sure, Maximize wouldn't help at all with the Greater Dmark or, say, Rejuvenation Cocoon, and this plan does have the 6 levels of ranger to start in Primal Avatar...)

Enhancements are also fairly tight, not much to drop from there I think...? I need to use exactly 30+2 in DWS to get headshot, exactly 10+1 in Tempest to not need Finesse, ... sure, I could drop 1 from Halfling Cunning and 2 from Crossbow Training 4, but those do come straight from abilities I'd consider "core" for this kind of a build... well, actually, those and the Archmage Invisibility do add up to the 4 I'd need to take all the W&S mastery from Radiant Servant.


That'd mean then... drop Sap/Precision (I was beginning to lean more in the direction of the latter in that slot), switch Maximize to Emp Heal, and...?

That'd be a bit more away from core "sniper" and towards medic, then...

Due the kind of build you are making, the only feat that would help you with damage mitigation is Combat Expertice (2nd tier of L'dreadnought, gives you +20 prr while C.E. is active). Since 13 rog levels, you will have improved uncanny dodge bonuses, so dodge should be fine. For the rest, if you spend skill points wisely, its all about gaming skills and gathering apropiate gear. full ranks in search, spot, dd, heal, bluff, is not hard to attain, but without apropiate gear and bonuses it will be impossible to reach a 65 search for example.

Combat Expertise, would that be instead of one of the other feats (do you mean, instead of Dodge as the one to replace Finesse?), or as a post-20 feat?

That'd be before or after Improved Sneak Attack in the latter case? Hm. CE, Imp SA, and... Precision if I don't take it earlier?

One more thing, for avoidance, either buy displacement scrolls or make greensteel clickies. Some people might suggest you taking monk levels instead (dark monk incoporeal thingies)

Don't have monk yet. Actually, don't have GS either but that's the next pack I plan on getting... hey, my highest level toon is level 14, I'm still sort of a newbie.

Avoidance and mitigation from clickies is where that one level of Wizard should get handy, anyway. (Wands...)

[mna]

Yes, I know Emp Heal would be nice. However, that cleric level would mean at least a net loss of one feat - what would you suggest I drop, and then which one should I switch to Emp Heal?

(Maximize on the other two Dmarks and the SLA gets twice the benefit of Emp Heal, and I do get the DWS extra devotion + maxed Heal. But, sure, Maximize wouldn't help at all with the Greater Dmark or, say, Rejuvenation Cocoon, and this plan does have the 6 levels of ranger to start in Primal Avatar...)

Enhancements are also fairly tight, not much to drop from there I think...? I need to use exactly 30+2 in DWS to get headshot, exactly 10+1 in Tempest to not need Finesse, ... sure, I could drop 1 from Halfling Cunning and 2 from Crossbow Training 4, but those do come straight from abilities I'd consider "core" for this kind of a build... well, actually, those and the Archmage Invisibility do add up to the 4 I'd need to take all the W&S mastery from Radiant Servant.


That'd mean then... drop Sap/Precision (I was beginning to lean more in the direction of the latter in that slot), switch Maximize to Emp Heal, and...?

Now, this is what I think it'd look like with cleric instead of wizard, with the changes to enhancements mentioned above:

(Note, hp will not be accurate, this is the old planner.)

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger \ 1 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 194
Spell Points: 180 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 20
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            17                    22
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         16                    18
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     9
Bluff                 3                    22
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device        7                    27
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  1                    27
Hide                  7                    33
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  4                    12
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         7                    31
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                3                     4
Search                7                    27
Spot                  3                    22
Swim                  0                     3
Tumble                7                    10
Use Magic Device      3                    22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 10 (Ranger)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 11 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Swim (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion

...hm, did I still leave Imp Crit pierce there? Pretty sure there aren't many named light picks in the game... and rapiers in the general case are out of the question as they aren't "light" despite being Finesse weapons, right?

[Dmnqwk]

From a neutral standpoint, you don't seem to be making a Rogue.

You mention you're after a stealth-like character, but you admit You won't be able to assassinate.
You want self-healing abilities coupled with a ranged class who can dual-wield in melee... you're basically making a Ranger.

Consider looking into being a Ranger instead of a Rogue, and seeing what benefits you'd get there.
Alternatively, if you're after doing traps too consider an Artificer build.

The concept is absolutely fine, but why do you wish to be a Rogue to achieve it? It definitely feels like you're making a Ranger.

[mna]

From a neutral standpoint, you don't seem to be making a Rogue.

You mention you're after a stealth-like character, but you admit You won't be able to assassinate.
You want self-healing abilities coupled with a ranged class who can dual-wield in melee... you're basically making a Ranger.

Well, it is sort of close to a Ranger, yes... but then, I plan to get a lot of my DPS from sneak attack, and also do traps and locks. And I mean about all the locks, not just the "most" locks that can be had with 10 ranks, +5 tools and a high dex.

Still, this kind of thing means I only have to keep 3 stats "high" for the core abilities - dex, con, int.

Pretty much had to choose TWF because I don't think I can get useful melee DPS against SA-resistant mobs without it.

How would you get assassinate DCs into some useful range with also getting metamagics to boost the dragonmark? Because, if you have a better way, I'm all ears. Nothing much is fixed yet except that I'm doing this as the LR+20 from an existing halfling rogue (I have several of those, between levels 3 and 7 - most have an unopened birthday box still, and I am going to keep at least one as a pure rogue anyway).

See, the concept is,
1) experiment with the dragonmark, and as self-sufficient as possible. (Positive spellpower from somewhere.)
2) Do traps and locks, all the way.
3) stat-to-damage and useful to-hit for both ranged and melee - special attacks too if possible.
4) Sneaky tactics.

... I pretty much ran out of stat points after that, going dex-based for melee is a much better alternative for this kind of thing than str-based, especially on a halfling. Could still change it into dex to thrown, though. (Or go all int-based but, I thought I just read in another thread that you'd have to go pure for Assassinate DCs to be good enough, and that'd be less survivability from AC and reflex... so what with wanting to have Emp Heal or at the very least Maximize...)

Consider looking into being a Ranger instead of a Rogue, and seeing what benefits you'd get there.
Alternatively, if you're after doing traps too consider an Artificer build.
The concept is absolutely fine, but why do you wish to be a Rogue to achieve it? It definitely feels like you're making a Ranger.

Because I actually tried several different alternatives in the old planner, and the other class combinations seem to be inferior for what I want to do with it. I could post the build planner output for the mostly-ranger version if you like, anyway? It was much better than the bard one... and the rest of the classes would be even worse.

I suppose Artificer could be made to work, probably... especially with a rogue or monk splash... but I'm f2p and don't plan to get Arti (or Monk) until at some point after EDs.

[Dmnqwk]

If you're looking into being a halfling assassin, I'd suggest going pure Rogue then.
Assuming a 32 point build:
Str 6
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 8
Cha 8

Putting level ups into int, and assuming you can snag a +3 dex tome, this'll let you take the epic sneak attack while still focusing on assassinate dc's.

Featwise you'd be looking at:
TWF line (3 feats)
Precision
Dragonmark
Empower Heal
Magical Training.

Then for Epic you've got improved sneak attack and two others of your choosing. Note improved critical is not in the heroic list, so it's a consideration (but since you're going for 20 odd sneak dice it's a much lower percentage of your output)

For Special Rogue feats, Improved Evasion, Opportunist, Slippery Mind and then whatever for the final one.

When it comes to Enhancements, you'll focus on assassinate and such but you'll want to be stingy in that tree to afford both halfling heal AND you need to reach as far into the Mechanic tree as possible (you may only be able to use light repeaters if you can't go deep enough in).

Hopefully this will give you some food for thought in your goal to be a halfling sneaky git.

[mna]

If you're looking into being a halfling assassin, I'd suggest going pure Rogue then.
Assuming a 32 point build:

...I don't have those. Actually I'm not sure if I even have enough adventure packs to be able to get 1750 favor yet.

Featwise you'd be looking at:
TWF line (3 feats)
Precision
Dragonmark
Empower Heal
Magical Training.

Um. How would I qualify for Emp Heal? Or is the wiki wrong and the Least DM of Healing actually does suffice for that? (The wiki lists prerequisites as, Cleric/FvS/Bard/Druid 1, Paladin 4, or Ranger 8 - notably not the DM.)

If it's that easy, I'll just feel stupid for a while.

Hopefully this will give you some food for thought in your goal to be a halfling sneaky git.

Oh well, if I'm spending AP in the halfling tree anyway, I can get dex to damage for thrown fairly easily...


In any case I am planning to leave at least one of them as a pure assassin, and without the DM too... I thought that part was simple enough to figure out on my own. (Not like we wouldn't have someone playing a pure assassin in the house already... my son's even currently online with his, level 17 or so elf. Dragonmarked too, heh.)



THIS build, though, I was going for maximal tactical flexibility within the sneaky category.