Why no Earth end-game?

[CaptEHCJ]

First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[Neoxxz]

First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Earth and Air are mutually exclusive.

Air gives you Knockdown Immunity and Wind Dance, which are enormously powerful, especially if you plan on running EE content.

[red_cardinal]

First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Why would 'so many mobs' be immune to fire? Which are those mobs? If you're thinking endgame to be a few devils in the Vale and Shavarath pack, then you're stuck in 2010. End game is mostly living things and none of it as of now is immune to fire. Maybe here and there there's a fire elemental.

Fire is viable for epic content. You just need your Evocation DCs high enough so that mobs don't save and you don't get half of damage.

[darthhento]

I'm using mine as a Water Savant with secondary in Acid. Polar Ray, Otiluke's, Cone, Black Dragon Bolt as main nukes, Acid Rain and Ice Storm as AoE's, Niac's, Eldar's and BDB as dots.

Air is very nice in terms of survivability but with smart gameplay you don't need knockdown immunity; if you're standing still in EE, you're dead.

[Sokól]

First, I'm quite new to DDO and the Forums. But, in reading forums, it seems folks talk about Air and Water for end-game Sorcs. Never Earth. I know that Fire is mostly not viable due to so many mobs being immune. But.. does earth have that same problem? Why no earth recommendations. Note, also admittedly, most of this was from before the new enhancement system but still....

Any thoughts or illumination from folks further down the sorc path than myself would be much appreciated. Thanks!

It all depends on your playstyle earth is a more dmg over time and cc with good webs and earth grab not as good in direct dmg. I duo sometimes with an earth savant and I play usually air or water and we compensate each other I might have more kills but he pins them down for me.

[Neoxxz]

Air is very nice in terms of survivability but with smart gameplay you don't need knockdown immunity; if you're standing still in EE, you're dead.

You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

You don't NEED Displacement.

You don't NEED Dodge.

You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.

[thesnoman]

Earth Savant is very fun to play in end game - Before going Air Savant/Shiradi with my Sorc I was pure Earth Savant.

Love it - different style of play - very difficult to solo EE content, but if you're playing in a group, it's a blast (web everything and let the DPS go to town)

When Epic GH was released, it was the death of my Earth Savant - MOB saves were too high and my web couldn't hold anything. Acid blast was hitting for half damage due to reflex saves, and my best option was to kite mobs through Acid Fog/Acid Rain - and many times die in the process.

Earth is fun to play - it's just not as survivable as Air and doesn't do as much instant DPS as Ice/Fire.

[Wizza]

You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

You don't NEED Displacement.

You don't NEED Dodge.

You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.

This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.

[AtomicMew]

This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. They are dead wrong.

Text is singular.

[Neoxxz]

This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. They are dead wrong.

You evidently didn't understand my post.

[Vallar]

Air gives you Knockdown Immunity

Disclaimer: All the below are from personal experience and the few chats I had with other Sorcs or watched them as they play.

I don't think that Air holds that much upper hand in terms of survivability anymore. My main is a 27 Sorc Water Sav (was second air and now second Acid).

If you want knockdown immunity stay in elemental form; Water Elemental form gives you immunity to knockdown, I bet the Air Elemental does the same. I know the description on the spell itself doesn't say ANYTHING related to that; however this comes from playing quests in the MoTUD pack where every single Acolyte or female caster spams Comet Fall to knockdown your brains. When I am out of form, I ALWAYS fall and get damage, once I swap into form, no more falling and a nice "Immune" floats over my head with a "Reflex Save"x3 hovering next to it (might be due to my reflex saves that I don't get the damage). But I am 100% sure about the immunity thing.

Now to the original question of why there aren't Earth end game (and I was this close |-| from respecing to acid fully) my guess:

Multiple times I end up in a quest where mobs are either resistant or immune to cold in which case I have to switch to acid. The problem with acid is the damage is based on DoTs and as we all know time is of essence; the sooner the mob dies, the sooner you are safe. Sorcs (or at least mine with Blur, 6% dodge, Stoneskin and Displacement) are squichy so it is not ideal that you keep running/jumping around like a mad rabbit until the 10-25K HP of the mob to drop.

On the other hand with all other elements; the damage is instant. You hit the spell, the mob gets damage, if he still walking, you move on to the next spell on your bar and the mob is dead (or continue doing so until dead).

You may however come to the conclusion in the end that in EE or some EH your damage may come close to acid's DoT effect. In EE if you get a Polar Ray with all Metamigcs your can do anything between 800-2.2K (depends on your gear and enhancements of course) which would still leave the mob with about 55-70% HP so you have to keep nuking; essentially mimicing acid's DoT. Unfortunately, the tick goes every second, where the spells you can unleash is only limited by how fast you can press the buttons and how fast the server/game would respond.

Another thing, I didn't like and I am sure other people might share my opinion, Earth's last SLA; Earthgrab. It is a DC of 10+Constitution Modifier+Sorc level as far as I know (and someone can correct me if I am wrong please) if you fail the DC NOTHING happens to the mob; just like you when you save against the Earth Elemental's Earthgrab.

Now compare that to Icy Prison (essentially the same SLA level for Water Savant); regardless of what it originally does, if they save, they get 250 damage. So, yeah, when you cast it, you know it is a win/(1/2)win situation. Specially when it has a bit of a few seconds of casting time and it isn't affected by meta magics.

One more reason, stacking Nukes from Acid doesn't behave the same way as Niac's Biting Cold or Electric Surge. If you stack Melf's Acid Arrow, it will lower the DC of the mob (and I think a max of 5 stack, but I am not sure about that), on the other hand, you can't stack Black Dragon Breath for example. So you have to resist the urge of spamming such nukes because it adds little and drains SP.

Others might have other reasons, but these are mine.

Aside from all of that, it is actually fun to just throw a few DoTs and walk away as the mobs die slowly while your team is bashing on them (to tend to other mobs perhaps or have a moment of respite) -- when you get a good team that can handle themselves and don't die if the the mob doesn't die ASAP.

Nonetheless, why not try it? Get a Sorc up to 20 with Earth Savant and see how it plays, if it is viable for you, you can share the experience, maybe I would change to Earth

Hope that helps.

[Wizza]

Text is singular.

Oooops. Late night post.

You evidently didn't understand my post.

You evidently didn't understand the benefits of the things you quoted in game. Saying to a caster "You don't need displacement" is as bad as saying to a fighter "You don't need a weapon, you can fight with your hands".

Just no.

[Neoxxz]

Oooops. Late night post.



You evidently didn't understand the benefits of the things you quoted in game. Saying to a caster "You don't need displacement" is as bad as saying to a fighter "You don't need a weapon, you can fight with your hands".

Just no.

I was saying that all those things (e.g. Displacement, Dodge etc) are REALLY GOOD.

Hence you didn't understand my post.

Read it in the context of the post I quoted and maybe it will make sense to you. Maybe even read it out loud, emphasising the capitalised words.

[Wizza]

I was saying that all those things (e.g. Displacement, Dodge etc) are REALLY GOOD.

Hence you didn't understand my post.

Read it in the context of the post I quoted and maybe it will make sense to you. Maybe even read it out loud, emphasising the capitalised words.

I read it. I understand your point. But your "don't NEED but are REALLY GOOD hence take them" is wrong. The truth is that, as a caster, you NEED displacement. You also NEED a ton of hit points, specially if we are talking of the harder epics. In fact, I will get Epic Toughness on my Air savant because I need those HP.

[Wizza]

If you want knockdown immunity stay in elemental form; Water Elemental form gives you immunity to knockdown, I bet the Air Elemental does the same. I know the description on the spell itself doesn't say ANYTHING related to that; however this comes from playing quests in the MoTUD pack where every single Acolyte or female caster spams Comet Fall to knockdown your brains. When I am out of form, I ALWAYS fall and get damage, once I swap into form, no more falling and a nice "Immune" floats over my head with a "Reflex Save"x3 hovering next to it (might be due to my reflex saves that I don't get the damage). But I am 100% sure about the immunity thing.

Turn off Water Elemental Form.
Open combat log.
Turn on form again.

Copy here what it says. Interested in this.

[Neoxxz]

I read it. I understand your point. But your "don't NEED but are REALLY GOOD hence take them" is wrong. The truth is that, as a caster, you NEED displacement. You also NEED a ton of hit points, specially if we are talking of the harder epics. In fact, I will get Epic Toughness on my Air savant because I need those HP.

Semantic difference between vital and optimal. Signing out.

[Vallar]

Turn off Water Elemental Form.
Open combat log.
Turn on form again.

Copy here what it says. Interested in this.

OK, the window doesn't copy more than one line, may I ask if you know how to copy multiple lines from that window?

Meanwhile, the combat log doesn't have any information or mention to immunity towards knockdown or anything. It simply states what is in the description in "summary". If that is what you are after.

[Wizza]

OK, the window doesn't copy more than one line, may I ask if you know how to copy multiple lines from that window?

Meanwhile, the combat log doesn't have any information or mention to immunity towards knockdown or anything. It simply states what is in the description in "summary". If that is what you are after.

Weird. Other Elemental forms states some buffs not stated in the summary.

Anyway, I don't really know how to explain how to copy more than one line so I suggest you just open wide the Chat and take a SS to post here.

[Vallar]

Here is the screenshot of the chat:



Anything below the last line in the chat window is just what I have on items. Hope that helps

[Wizza]

Here is the screenshot of the chat:



Anything below the last line in the chat window is just what I have on items. Hope that helps

This is not what I was asking for thou

I'd like the entire description from the Combat log: deactivate temporarily the "Incoming: Effects" from your combat chat and then SS again. At the left of the description there shouldn't be the tag "Effects" but rather it should be "(Combat)" .