Shiradi Shuricannon

[Chatraz]

Just ETRed after U22 and noticed the following problem. 10k stars was not selectable as my lv 6 monk feat. I was able to take it as a normal feat but not my bonus monk feat. Wonder if anyone else is having the same issue.

[TeacherSyn]

Just ETRed after U22 and noticed the following problem. 10k stars was not selectable as my lv 6 monk feat. I was able to take it as a normal feat but not my bonus monk feat. Wonder if anyone else is having the same issue.

Sounds like a bug, based on the wiki's description that you should be able to select it as a Monk feat. Hopefully others can verify; it will be a while before I have a character to do this.

[Lerl]

I found a robe for my monk that has Destruction on it. Is this a good fit for the build?

[TeacherSyn]

I found a robe for my monk that has Destruction on it. Is this a good fit for the build?

If the robe adds the enchantment like this, it should since the robe isn't a weapon and so must add that property to whatever a character wields.

You may also want to look at the Black Dragonscale Armor, which has another property, Armor Piercing, which treats something immediately as having less fortification without waiting for a stacking bonus. Off-hand weapons such as an Envenomed Blade does this, too.

[TeacherSyn]

Has anyone seen any results with U22 and Sting of the Ninja returning to shuriken? I've noticed two poison damage applications to enemies I've hit but none have lived long enough to see if the poison vulnerability and stacks are being applied. I suspect it is still broken.

[Firewall]

@Garix: Since i have Improved Deception on my ring for ages now i cannot remember how long it has been since i tested it on an offhand weapon. I did a short test with Rebellion and Treason yesterday and did not see any procs of Deception with those weapons. Armor Piercing, Sneak Attack etc. seem to work fine. Probably it has something to do with the changes to throwers over the last updates to make the crit range work. Celestia is working as always so probably you should try to put your Deception item in another slot for now.

@-k1w1-: Great that you have so much fun with the build and thank you for sharing it. The changes with U22 now are absolutely in favor of Shuricannon builds. I hope they will fix the Ninja Poison soon too.

@HastyPudding: Yes the Ninja Spy capstone has been finally fixed and it is great fun to play. After finishing my epic completionist i'm back at lvl 27 now and tested my Life Stealing Spelltouched Shuriken yesterday against fleshies in 3BC. It tears through them like a hot knife through butter at extreme range. Can't wait to see a Thunderforged shuriken with Dragon's Edge and Mortal Fear or Crippling Flames in action.

@Chatraz: That must be a bug. Have not heard about such a problem so far. I would bug report it and send a ticket to maybe get help from a GM. If nothing else works take Combat expertise as monk lvl 6 feat and 10k stars as a normal feat.

@Lerl: Destruction is nice to have but i think there are better robes. Fortification bypass starts to be really useful at lvl 20 when you get the enhanced crit range with the Ninja Spy capstone.

@Spencerian: Sting of the Ninja unfortunately still does not work. I tested it already on Lamannia but tested it again on the life server. It does not even show the bonus in the weapon tooltip which it does with other weapons or random loot shuriken and you don't see any poison stacks on monsters.

[Wiremesh]

I had the same problem with the feat. I tried to select it for my level 6 monk bonus feat, but the UI would not allow it. The name for the feat was in white, not yellow, and I could only select it as a standard feat. I bug-reported it, and so far all I have heard is, "We have received your bug report" type of message.

Since I wanted to carry on, I dropped Quick-Draw and just took Precision for now, and will sort out my feats when the bug is fixed.

[jakeelala]

@-k1w1-: Great that you have so much fun with the build and thank you for sharing it. The changes with U22 now are absolutely in favor of Shuricannon builds. I hope they will fix the Ninja Poison soon too.
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This is not objectively true. Objectively, the Shuricannon was so far behind on DPS before that now it is finally in-line with previously much more powerful multi-class builds, from a pure DPS perspective.

Also, the fixes to Halfling, Kensei, and Divine Crusader actually make the gap quite small on a pure physical damage perspective. Real world about a 6% increase in physical damage, or around 12-13% in someone does not take a +1 Crit Range (listed above) option. Most of the other top multi-class builds were already in the 15-20% higher DPS range than the Shuricannon on a dollar for dollar comparison, excluding DPS sources that are available to both a 20Monk or a Multiclass.

The real buff here for 20 Monks is to TF shuriken on-crit effects, because they are so powerful. But again, only increasing them by about 7%.

But most importantly, The DPS was never the true gulf between a shuricannon or multiclass thrower (well, it was, but it isn't now, they're roughly equal). The gulf, nee Chasm, between the two is Defensive. You can't get Displace, Prot Evil, Haste, Epic Reflexes, 80+ Dex, etc. Properly done Multi-classes should have AT LEAST 10 more Dex than your build, because of Shadow Dodge and FT Tensers. And they throw a couple percent faster than you.

Don't give new players to throwers bad information please.

[Firewall]

This is not objectively true. Objectively, the Shuricannon was so far behind on DPS before that now it is finally in-line with previously much more powerful multi-class builds, from a pure DPS perspective.

Also, the fixes to Halfling, Kensei, and Divine Crusader actually make the gap quite small on a pure physical damage perspective. Real world about a 6% increase in physical damage, or around 12-13% in someone does not take a +1 Crit Range (listed above) option. Most of the other top multi-class builds were already in the 15-20% higher DPS range than the Shuricannon on a dollar for dollar comparison, excluding DPS sources that are available to both a 20Monk or a Multiclass.

The real buff here for 20 Monks is to TF shuriken on-crit effects, because they are so powerful. But again, only increasing them by about 7%.

But most importantly, The DPS was never the true gulf between a shuricannon or multiclass thrower (well, it was, but it isn't now, they're roughly equal). The gulf, nee Chasm, between the two is Defensive. You can't get Displace, Prot Evil, Haste, Epic Reflexes, 80+ Dex, etc. Properly done Multi-classes should have AT LEAST 10 more Dex than your build, because of Shadow Dodge and FT Tensers. And they throw a couple percent faster than you.

Don't give new players to throwers bad information please.

I'm far from giving bad information. I was only saying that the changes favor Shuricannons since they benefit the most of them (e.g. 15-20 crit range and +6 Seeker ship buff). If it was ever as far behind in DPS as you claim compared to other builds it was only due to enhancements of the shuricannon being bugged and when the Shuricannon was posted there were no other EE viable thrower builds in the first place to compare it to.

If you again want to talk about DPS i can only say you don't take a lot into account with your statement. The difference of up to 10 DEX at the moment is only due to Shadow Dodge being bugged so that probably won't last long. Technically it should only be 7 DEX or less (4 from Tensers, 3 from Shadow Dodge). I would not count on this for a long term build. Also the Shuricannon made up some of that advantage already by Xendrik Weapon Training, Venomed Blades and Vorpal (and before U21 the synergy between Sting of the Ninja and Venomed Blades). Now it gains +20% crit chance on top of it and that keeps being a big boost because even if other builds try to come close in crit range by going halfling they have to sacrifice DPS somewhere else in their enhancements and the free Shuriken Expertise feat from drow.

The big advantage of the enhanced crit range not only is in TF weapon procs but also in proccing on-crit effects like Life Stealing (which makes Life Stealing on spelltouched weapons viable in epics again), Crippling, Radiance (and faster stacking Ninja poison if they fix it again) and also in a much greater benefit of Seeker buffs at all levels. You can stack Seeker to up to 24 now (+12 Consuming Darkness, +6 Guild buff and +6 from Tier 3 Legendary Dreadnaught if you have an epic Completionist with a 4/3/1/1 Twist split) which equals an average of 24*2*0.3=14.4 damage per hit compared to 24*2*0.1=4.8 damage of a multiclass drow build which is almost a +10 damage per hit difference.

I'm also not convinced that the added damage of Dragon's Edge (20.7 damage per hit average) and Crippling Flames (60 damage per hit average) is only about 7% difference as you say especially when also taking Seeker damage and standard critical damage into account but i'm too lazy to do the math.

Also the Shuricannon still has some improvements to come when they finally fix Sting of the Ninja (and thus the synergy with doubling Venomed Blades damage too) and with BAB when the level cap is increased to 30 so the DPS part will still improve with coming updates.

Also all of that boost is working at extreme range while other builds only have mostly situational SA damage at (sometimes extended) SA range so that is also a Defensive bonus because a shuricannon can kill before mobs even can come into SA range if the surroundings permit.

Speaking of Defenses the shuricannon is built for much higher AC that is absolutely viable in EE content and will be even more viable when they lower the to-hit chances in EE as the Devs have already said they are planning. Displacement can be used from clickies with the same duration but viable AC is a non-dispellable additional layer of defense. Everybody can take Blinding Speed or Epic Reflexes and drink lvl 15 Haste pots or use clickies and you can even scroll Tensers if you have high enough UMD. With the throwing speed being almost at cap anyway the difference is not much and will be nonexistent with the cap at lvl 30.
The Shuricannon has 10% faster running speed, EE viable AC, immunity to hold person, DR10/-, high Spell Resistance, permanent Feather Fall, higher Ki regeneration, an indestructible dummy from Diversion to pull aggro, Deflect Arrows, Bulwark of Defense and lot of other stuff to boost defenses over other builds and all of that is not even dependant on spellpoints. As you said in another thread thrower builds don't usually have problems with their defenses anyway but the shuricannon can be used as a tank quite well.

I'm actually getting a bit tired of you constantly claiming my build would be so much worse than others. My build is quite viable and popular and really good at what it does as its users have confirmed many times. And it is still getting better and is absolutely at least on eye-level with other thrower builds. Other builds have other strengths and weaknesses so let's simply leave it at that.

So don't give new players to throwers bad information please.

[jakeelala]

You can lead a horse to water...and my ac is higher.

[Firewall]

You can lead a horse to water...and my ac is higher.

I sincerely doubt that but will leave it at that.

[jakeelala]

I sincerely doubt that but will leave it at that.

Its higher from my Dex, and from the EK tree. Somewhere between 15 and 20 pts higher.

[Garix]

I hit level 25 on my Drow.

Blimey its been fun

Still can't do the challenges. Managed to do enough to get the lvl 4 Frozen tunic before I wanted to remove my eyes. There was something very wrong about still wearing a lvl 4 piece of armour at level 24 but I just can't do the farming thing.

But even with nothing more than Cannith crafted shrurikens,my sincere thanks to whoever put a +1 Silver returner on the AH for 500Plat (no I didn't miss any zeros), Snowstar and Shadow Star its still been immense fun.

Celstia (thanks Raiders box) has added to the smile factor

Don't get me wrong I' not going to be soloing EE any time soon (read that as ever) so part of the design idea of this build is somewhat wasted on me but still...

Took my pure Elf ranged Ranger out today to try and get him back to 20 (3rd life all purely ranged) and the difference is chalk and cheese.

Everything is so much sloooooooooowwwwwwwweeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr, its untrue. Manage to get half way round Meridia before I binned it in depression.

So you've ruined my Elf and got me playing a Drow.

Thanks

[Firewall]

Its higher from my Dex, and from the EK tree. Somewhere between 15 and 20 pts higher.

Wrong information again.

The only thing that the EK tree gives in terms of AC is Improved Mage Armor which gives +10% bonus to existing AC which equals the Combat Expertise Feat that a Shuricannon takes. Since Shuricannon can also scroll Tensers with some UMD investment (which indeed became easier with the new +3 UMD ship buff with this update) the only AC you get more than a Shuricannon is from the bugged Shadow Dodge which should be 1 or 2 but is actually 3 AC from DEX as it is now. And that's all.

The Shuricannon gets +6 AC from 20 lvl monk vs. 12 lvl monk (or +9 AC vs. 9 or less monk levels), gets another +4 AC from Bulwark of Defense, takes the Epic Mage Armor Feat which is another +9 AC if you already wear +11 robes which adds up to +19 AC. Since a Shuricannon would already have Armor Piercing from Dragon's Edge on the TF shuriken it can even take Rebellion in the offhand for another +20 armor piercing and can still keep wearing the Flawless White Dragonscale Robe that i suggested so far (where your build would wear black dragonscale for the Armor Piercing because of SA damage) which gives a permanent +6 Shield bonus (in addition to +7 Protection for which you would have to invest another slot) that is already better than a Shield spell (which you can otherwise use from clickies or CL10 wands) which nets another +2 AC bonus multiplied by Combat Expertise so the Shuricannon is at least at +23 or +24 AC.

So to sum it all up the Shuricannon is more than 20 points of AC ahead of your build (about 30+ if you don't slot Protection somewhere) which is quite a lot and that is because it was built for AC in the first place. If you switch to Mountain Stance in tank mode those 20+ more points give you at least an additional +4 AC due to the Ultimate Mountain Stance +20% AC multiplier.

(If you check your screenshot in your thread you have an AC of 138 fully buffed and with pots and a completionist feat which is a lot less than anything a basic Shuricannon can achieve.)

[Firewall]

I hit level 25 on my Drow.

Blimey its been fun

Still can't do the challenges. Managed to do enough to get the lvl 4 Frozen tunic before I wanted to remove my eyes. There was something very wrong about still wearing a lvl 4 piece of armour at level 24 but I just can't do the farming thing.

But even with nothing more than Cannith crafted shrurikens,my sincere thanks to whoever put a +1 Silver returner on the AH for 500Plat (no I didn't miss any zeros), Snowstar and Shadow Star its still been immense fun.

Celstia (thanks Raiders box) has added to the smile factor

Don't get me wrong I' not going to be soloing EE any time soon (read that as ever) so part of the design idea of this build is somewhat wasted on me but still...

Took my pure Elf ranged Ranger out today to try and get him back to 20 (3rd life all purely ranged) and the difference is chalk and cheese.

Everything is so much sloooooooooowwwwwwwweeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr, its untrue. Manage to get half way round Meridia before I binned it in depression.

So you've ruined my Elf and got me playing a Drow.

Thanks

Hehe i think i can live with ruining your elf. Gratz to level 25 and i hope you have even more fun with the build in the future.

[jakeelala]

Wrong information again.

The only thing that the EK tree gives in terms of AC is Improved Mage Armor which gives +10% bonus to existing AC which equals the Combat Expertise Feat that a Shuricannon takes. Since Shuricannon can also scroll Tensers with some UMD investment (which indeed became easier with the new +3 UMD ship buff with this update) the only AC you get more than a Shuricannon is from the bugged Shadow Dodge which should be 1 or 2 but is actually 3 AC from DEX as it is now. And that's all.

The Shuricannon gets +6 AC from 20 lvl monk vs. 12 lvl monk (or +9 AC vs. 9 or less monk levels), gets another +4 AC from Bulwark of Defense, takes the Epic Mage Armor Feat which is another +9 AC if you already wear +11 robes which adds up to +19 AC. Since a Shuricannon would already have Armor Piercing from Dragon's Edge on the TF shuriken it can even take Rebellion in the offhand for another +20 armor piercing and can still keep wearing the Flawless White Dragonscale Robe that i suggested so far (where your build would wear black dragonscale for the Armor Piercing because of SA damage) which gives a permanent +6 Shield bonus (in addition to +7 Protection for which you would have to invest another slot) that is already better than a Shield spell (which you can otherwise use from clickies or CL10 wands) which nets another +2 AC bonus multiplied by Combat Expertise so the Shuricannon is at least at +23 or +24 AC.

So to sum it all up the Shuricannon is more than 20 points of AC ahead of your build (about 30+ if you don't slot Protection somewhere) which is quite a lot and that is because it was built for AC in the first place. If you switch to Mountain Stance in tank mode those 20+ more points give you at least an additional +4 AC due to the Ultimate Mountain Stance +20% AC multiplier.

(If you check your screenshot in your thread you have an AC of 138 fully buffed and with pots and a completionist feat which is a lot less than anything a basic Shuricannon can achieve.)

You take CE? Groan.

I also have Earth Stance.

I'm done arguing with you, you just don't seem to understand math.

[Firewall]

You take CE? Groan.

I also have Earth Stance.

I'm done arguing with you, you just don't seem to understand math.

You may also have Earth Stance but 20+ more AC means 4+ more AC benefit you gain from it. So higher AC builds naturally get a higher advantage from the percentage bonus.
CE and Bulwark of Defense were feats of the Shuricannon from day one. I thought you had at least read the build before starting to claim you had better defenses and AC.

At least i'm glad you decided to stop arguing with me. That was what i proposed at the end of post #549 already that we simply leave it at that.

[Lerl]

I just got my first life SS to level 20 and am trying to claim Shiradi for my ED. I am only able to claim GMoF. I don't WANT GMoF, so I am not claiming it. HOW do I claim Shiradi? (Let the lols begin)

[Firewall]

I just got my first life SS to level 20 and am trying to claim Shiradi for my ED. I am only able to claim GMoF. I don't WANT GMoF, so I am not claiming it. HOW do I claim Shiradi? (Let the lols begin)

As a monk you can only start with an epic destiny in the Martial Tree so the closest you can come to taking Shiradi is to select Legendary Dreadnaught and level it for four levels before you can change into Shiradi. The only other option is to select Legendary Dreadnaught and then buy a Key of Destiny from the store for Turbine Points to switch directly to Shiradi.

[Nodoze]

I just got my first life SS to level 20 and am trying to claim Shiradi for my ED. I am only able to claim GMoF. I don't WANT GMoF, so I am not claiming it. HOW do I claim Shiradi? (Let the lols begin)

As a monk you can only start with an epic destiny in the Martial Tree so the closest you can come to taking Shiradi is to select Legendary Dreadnaught and level it for four levels before you can change into Shiradi. The only other option is to select Legendary Dreadnaught and then buy a Key of Destiny from the store for Turbine Points to switch directly to Shiradi.

Firewall, as usual, is giving great info in a charitable manner. I don't have as many lives as many folk on the forums but, from painful lessons learned, there a couple of things I would want to be aware of regarding Epic Destinies (EDs) if I was fairly new to them... Sorry in advance if you already knew all of this but in case you don't I wanted to share some observations (and pain points I hit):

• - EDs are often a huge part of the power of builds and often a large part of EDs come from twists;
• - Twists are unlocked by fate points & 1 fate point is received for every 3 ED levels you grind in any ED;
• - Each higher ED level in a given ED tree needs more XP to unlock it so fate-point-wise* it is faster to grind out through level 3 in every ED in a sphere then take the bridge ED in that sphere to level 4 to do each ED in the next sphere to level 3 but that can cause problems depending on your goals (for example if you want to Epic Reincarnate).
• - Another part of a character's power is getting prior lives through Reincarnation and some planning can help you there. Epic Reincarnation (ER) becomes available at level 28 AND 6 million Karma in a single sphere and this is where the rub is... If you want to be able to ER you need 6 million Karma (which is earned while you earn XP) in a given sphere and it takes 6.6 million Epic XP to hit 20 so that means that if you spend more than 600K in another sphere during your first Epic life you will have to stay at 28 and grind out Karma in one sphere to 6 million before you can ER...

The above being said, if you think you may want to do some ERs on your character, my recommendation would be to do as Firewall said and jump to Shiradi as fast as you can and then either stay in Shiradi till 28 (if you don't care about fate points that much) or at least stay in the Primal sphere and max all those EDs on the way to 28. That way right at 28 or ASAP after you can ER. On the next epic life, if you are going for fate points, you could do the same thing on the martial sphere (getting the feel of Shadow Dancer). Another thing you can do is level to 28, do an ER from 28->20, then immediately do a TR from 20->1 and get the following:
- Epic Past Life Feat;
- Heroic Past Life Feat;
- go from 32 point to 34 point build;
- and other misc benefits...

Anyway, those are some lessons learned... ERs are pretty cool as they only reset you from 28 to 20 and you keep all Heroic Levels and EDs you unlocked along the way and the ride from 20 to 28 is pretty fun. I have multiple characters on which, before ERs came out, I did the old method of level 3 in every sphere and now they cannot ER at 28...

Without using a Key of Destiny, even if you spend every drop of XP you can in the Primal tree, I think you will be stuck at level 28 for about 480K Karma (with 480K "wasted" XP) due to having to grind to Legendary Dreadnaught to 1,080,000 XP to get to level 4 to open the bridge to the Primal Sphere.

For more information I would read the following DDO Wiki articles:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Reincarnation

Anyway I hope that helps. If you find anything in there incorrect or confusing and feel it can be worded better let me know and I will update the WIKI (or you can if you want to also volunteer to update the wiki).