Shiradi Shuricannon

[Chatraz]

How good is crippling strike in this build? I have a 11Rang/6Monk/3Rog version of this build which I love and have taken crippling strike but am wondering on how useful it is. Even with a high rate of fire mobs just seem to die to fast for it to come into play, only orange nameds seem to enough hp for it to matter on and since they can be paralzyed it still seems of limited use.

[Firewall]

How good is crippling strike in this build? I have a 11Rang/6Monk/3Rog version of this build which I love and have taken crippling strike but am wondering on how useful it is. Even with a high rate of fire mobs just seem to die to fast for it to come into play, only orange nameds seem to enough hp for it to matter on and since they can be paralzyed it still seems of limited use.

Yes it is of limited use i would say. Higher EE monsters will even be outright immune to the stat loss. The Shuricannon has to spend 40 AP in the Ninja Spy tree though to be able to take the capstone enhancement and this is something that adds to throwing weapons that's why i took it. For a multiclass build i would not recommend it. There is probably better things you can spend your AP on.

[kgoodson3]

... I don't think pin is so great for the 2 points, so I'm only losing 1 dex from the maximum possible in the shiradi tree when I have double rainbow, and I do believe it is well worth it, but I don't really have data, so I was interested what is your opinion, if you just go for stay frosty too or stick with double rainbow?

Pin is very much worth it if you have additional sources of stacking helpless damage (for ex. "No Mercy" and "Sense Weakness"). If you do not have these in your ED's or Enhancements, it very well might not be worth it.

[Firewall]

Also I have seen you debate this in another thread, what do you think of double rainbow? Jakeelala dismisses it as not worth the 6 ED points because it is unpredictable, but I feel it does a good deal of DPS even though you can't quantify it, and not just the instakills, it procs AOEs etc. I have estimated it at ~ 20 proc damage per hit in the past though that is obviously a wild guess, instakills are worth more on EEs etc. and it has changed so many times... I don't think pin is so great for the 2 points, so I'm only losing 1 dex from the maximum possible in the shiradi tree when I have double rainbow, and I do believe it is well worth it, but I don't really have data, so I was interested what is your opinion, if you just go for stay frosty too or stick with double rainbow?

I still go with Double Rainbow and i feel it is absolutely worth the effort. It is damage at full range and often procs AOE, instakill and DOTs and those are especially good against bosses. I'd gladly sacrifice 1 DEX anytime for it since i could show that 1 DEX at endgame is only about 0.5-0.7% overall DPS. Nerve Venom procs often enough with the high number of attacks in my experience that you don't necessarily need Pin or Whistler and i don't like additional button smashing anyway but that is personal preference.

[elcagador]

From this post someone claims that Double Rainbow could buff enemies with adrenaline as Colors of the queen does. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5343097

I personally haven't seen adrenaline hits from enemies while using double rainbow but I haven't played much lately, I also don't have colors of the queen yet, in part because of that. How is your experience with that, have you seen arenaline hits from enemies with just double rainbow (not colors) ?

Is still worth the risk if that is true? (For the moment Im playing just with stay frosty to see if 2 pt of dex and movement cc is worth, but on bosses I would like to have double rainbow as long as don't risk others to get adrenalized.)

Thx.

[Firewall]

I have monitored this over the last two weeks and have not had any Adrenaline proc yet. Of course i only have checked on bosses and not every trash mob. The thing with Double Rainbow is that they change the procs with every patch and update so it is always a surprise what you get and it could already be removed just like the physical damage shield that used to proc since last update. I'm not concerned with adrenaline since when i solo quests i'm attacking from a distance anyway so only melees are at risk there and trash mobs are helpless very quick so this is not an issue. I run raids but havent seen it proc there either but even if it would you can switch off Double Rainbow or change to Stay Frosty (instead of taking 2 points in Healing Spring on Tier 1) in a boss fight and still have the benefits of Shiradi procs all the way to the boss. Some people prefer to change to Shadowdancer ED but i like to have full range damage.

[TeacherSyn]

Two notes:

Anyone notice that your shuriken's crit ranges are properly showing on LIVE with the latest maintenance updates? I see 15-20 for mine and the effects seem to be working.

And, my star-thrower scored her first EE solo victory. And my build is a bit gimpy compared to what others I've read. Still, it was a dominating win and very fun. I can't express enough thanks for this build.

[jakeelala]

Two notes:

Anyone notice that your shuriken's crit ranges are properly showing on LIVE with the latest maintenance updates? I see 15-20 for mine and the effects seem to be working.

And, my star-thrower scored her first EE solo victory. And my build is a bit gimpy compared to what others I've read. Still, it was a dominating win and very fun. I can't express enough thanks for this build.

Lol you should see what a properly built and equipped thrower build can do. 60 Dex is extremely low

Congrats nonetheless on your EE solo

[RumbIe]

Is there an updated gear list for this build. I'm level 14 now and working towards what's on the first page, but some of it is vague. Thunderforged SS or shuriken. What TF are people going with nowadays for each? I have a riposte kama in my offhand and a spelltouched shuriken in my main with life stealing.

Got a bunch of ingots from some of my alts running solo in the wilderness area and want to start crafting. Tier 2 is unbound so is there value in a T2 thrower or SS beyond a spell touched or riposte offhand or should I stick with what I have until I can get a higher tier TF?

Thanks

[TeacherSyn]

Lol you should see what a properly built and equipped thrower build can do. 60 Dex is extremely low

Congrats nonetheless on your EE solo

"Properly built and equipped?"

I might be a little soft-skinned here, but keep in mind that not everyone pours in time for racking up past lives, Completionist, raids, a boatload of Epic gear, or other things to go l33t on everything. I am not a power-gamer.

Even with the fundamental gear with good gameplay, I would think you'd agree that the weakest 'Cannon is quite a formidable foe.

I don't think I want to ask what DEX would not be considered "extremely low" and how one gets there.

[Firewall]

@Spencerian: Congratulations! It really shows that the build works great even with a second life toon as a non-power gamer at level 24. I really like reading your blog. Keep up the good work. You make lots of people see things from a different perspective with your build tests and videos. Not every player is a powergamer and everybody should play the game as he or she likes. Gear comes with time so don't worry about that. The ultimate goal in the game is to have fun and not to grind gear if you are not into powergaming. Nice work!

@Rumble: I didn't post an updated gearlist since i have been working on my epic completionist and not doing endgame raids and quests to farm the newest items. Things i would try to include are obviously the upgraded Necklace of Mystic Eidolons for +4 Insightful DEX and CON, the Dragon Masque for the added damage, the Battlerager's Harness for damage and the Dumathoin's bracers for +11 DEX, PRR and such. I have not worked on a complete layout though. With the next update when the shuriken crit range will be fixed to crit between 15-20 for this build even the EE Consuming Darkness ring with Seeker XII is a big source of DPS.

Thunderforged shuriken have better DPS than spelltouched shuriken so it is worth to craft even lower tiers. With the expanded crit range next update there might also be more value to the Life Stealing spelltouched shuriken because that procs on a crit and will do that three times as often as it does now but that is a bit hard to quantify in DPS.

For a Thunderforged shortsword i would go for positive spellpower for Tier 1, Dragon's Edge at Tier 2 and Healing Lore at Tier 3.
For a shuriken you can go either First Degree Burns (bosses) or Touch of Flames (or Touch of Shadows vs. fire immune enemies) for Tier 1, whatever you like on Tier 2 (i prefer Paralyzing Fear) and Mortal Fear or Crippling Flames for Tier 3.

If you only craft one shuriken i would go for Mortal Fear for the last tier since it is an allround weapon and does incredible damage to EE trashmobs. With the high crit range coming and against non-fireimmune bosses you will do more damage with Crippling Flames.

[Nodoze]

@Spencerian: Congratulations! ... Keep up the good work. You make lots of people see things from a different perspective with your build tests and videos. Not every player is a powergamer ... Nice work!

@Rumble: ... updated gearlist ...For a Thunderforged shortsword i would go for positive spellpower for Tier 1, Dragon's Edge at Tier 2 and Healing Lore at Tier 3. ...

echos on kudos to Spencerian and power-gaming isn't the focus of many folk so don't let folk get under your skin...

Regarding the offhand, is Celestia still BiS or at least competitive? I have one and I really like the procs but haven't tried anything else so don't have anything to compare to.

[Firewall]

echos on kudos to Spencerian and power-gaming isn't the focus of many folk so don't let folk get under your skin...

Regarding the offhand, is Celestia still BiS or at least competitive? I have one and I really like the procs but haven't tried anything else so don't have anything to compare to.

Yes Celestia is still a good choice. Especially with the Planar Focus set bonus. It also has the advantage of a Green Augment slot where you can slot something like a Golem's Heart if you happen to have one. Red slots on other offhand weapons have no real benefit except maybe slotting colorless augments. Thunderforged weapons have orange slots which are slightly more useful than red ones.

[jakeelala]

"Properly built and equipped?"

I might be a little soft-skinned here, but keep in mind that not everyone pours in time for racking up past lives, Completionist, raids, a boatload of Epic gear, or other things to go l33t on everything. I am not a power-gamer.

Even with the fundamental gear with good gameplay, I would think you'd agree that the weakest 'Cannon is quite a formidable foe.

I don't think I want to ask what DEX would not be considered "extremely low" and how one gets there.

You should shoot for a full time Dex of 76-80. I'ts not easy but you can do it. More importantly, you can DEFINITELY get above 60. Esp. with monk capstone. You should have 6 trained in Shiradi (or 5 if that makes it an odd number). 4 or 5 tome, 10-11 item, 3 Insight, globe or +1 from colorless 12 Augment. Rest is enhancements and level up's. You would need to start with 20. If you can scroll Tensors do that, if you can't, then you lose the 4 Alchemical. But you can get the rest of the stuff without killing yourself. 10 Stats are almost free, the insightful comes from a lot of places now. You can even get insightful 4 from HH upgraded necklace.

Are you running in Wind or Water?

And I meant grats on your EE. It's even more impressive if you're not PL'd and geared out. My guess is your biggest problem is ED/Enhancement Dex, though I don't know your starting stats.

Everyone needs to take a Xanax in this thread.

[jakeelala]

Red slots on other offhand weapons have no real benefit except maybe slotting colorless augments. Thunderforged weapons have orange slots which are slightly more useful than red ones.

Incorrect. Red is for Devotion which is very useful if you're twisting Cocoon. There are other places to get deovtion, but then your stuck on the gear slot.

Highest DPS offhand for non level drain immune would be Epic Envenomed for Enervation on your Shuriken, +Armor Peircing +Red Slot for Devotion. Also excellent is a Seeker X of Deception (5-7) but those are hard to find since they're lootgen. Especially with crit threat changes Seeker X is basically mandatory on 20 Monk thrower after U22. Deception proc is awesome as well. Celestia is fine for leveling, but as far as adding damage goes it's not a good choice. The set bonus is nice, but there are better sets out there like Claw + eGem which nets you flexibility on your offhand which is very nice. At the very least you should aim for having both to switch, if possible. Once I had claw/gem set, I've never gone back to celestia.

[Firewall]

I would take the Thunderforged SS in your offhand with higher armor piercing and better healing power if you take the healing crit into account and then use a Seeker XII EE Consuming Darkness. I have tested the Epic Envenomed Blade with a guildie and the Enervation never procced with a random lootgen shuriken and double rainbow switched off which would fit to the fact that Tier 2 GS low-proc high-damage effects don't work with shuriken on offhand weapons. Epic Claw sets and an Epic Envenomed Blade are hard to come by in any case and i don't think it is worth the grind if you have other viable options.

For lower levels if you want to have Deception, Sneak Attack and Armor Piercing a fully upgraded Rebellion is a good offhand weapon and relatively easy to come by.
I personally prefer the Celestia Planar Focus set since you have two AOE damage procs, the set bonus damage and PRR and the blinding CC from greater sunburst and you can switch in a yellow planar focus easily if you need true seeing. That combo fits well with the Gauntlets of Immortality for Healing with Cocoon. With higher crit range i will consider Rebellion as an alternative though depending on the effective damage.

Those gear layouts make red augment slots for devotion not very useful in my eyes. If you have a different layout things may be different but there is only a limited number of useful offhand weapons.

[jakeelala]

I would take the Thunderforged SS in your offhand with higher armor piercing and better healing power if you take the healing crit into account and then use a Seeker XII EE Consuming Darkness. I have tested the Epic Envenomed Blade with a guildie and the Enervation never procced with a random lootgen shuriken and double rainbow switched off which would fit to the fact that Tier 2 GS low-proc high-damage effects don't work with shuriken on offhand weapons. Epic Claw sets and an Epic Envenomed Blade are hard to come by in any case and i don't think it is worth the grind if you have other viable options.

For lower levels if you want to have Deception, Sneak Attack and Armor Piercing a fully upgraded Rebellion is a good offhand weapon and relatively easy to come by.
I personally prefer the Celestia Planar Focus set since you have two AOE damage procs, the set bonus damage and PRR and the blinding CC from greater sunburst and you can switch in a yellow planar focus if you need true seeing. That combo fits well with the Gauntlets of Immortality for Healing with Cocoon. With higher crit range i will consider Rebellion as an alternative though.

Those gear layouts make red augment slots for devotion not very useful in my eyes. If you have a different layout things may be different but there is only a limited number of useful offhand weapons.

I dont like losing a whole ring slot for seeker 12. Theres hetter things for that slot.
Enervation 100% procs off hand from epic envenomed, unless it changed in the month ive been gone.

Tf healing off hand with DE fine if you have it on your weapon, but its not really dps against things without high fort, and in those cases you should be using a envenomed or something useful of deception. The SA damage is excellent. Seeker of deception is about the highest off hand damge youre going to find for now. You can keep arguing with me, but its still the most concentrated off hand dps i know of.

[Firewall]

I'm not arguing. I just can say Enervation from the Envenomed Blade did not work in the extensive test i made with my guildie. Could have been very bad luck but so far noone has convinced me with some proof otherwise. So if you (or anyone else) had a screenshot of a level drain which does not originate from a spelltouched shuriken or double rainbow with the Epic Envenomed Blade equipped i would not argue against that.
It would surely be a nice addition to offhand weapons but so far i have to rely on my own experiences and would not advise anyone to grind out the ingredients for that weapon only to be dissappointed. But i would happily be convinced otherwise.

[Firewall]

(...)Seeker of deception is about the highest off hand damge youre going to find for now. You can keep arguing with me, but its still the most concentrated off hand dps i know of.

You know i'm of the opinion that DPS is not everything and the PRR bonus, Blindness CC and the ability to switch in True Seeing is of great value in my eyes (and Blindness can add to damage too since it makes vulnerable to SA damage).
Since you can have Deception on a Dragon Masque or other items or you might already have a seeker item somewhere else Seeker X on an offhand weapon is not necessarily better damage than all the benefits and damage you can get from Celestia and a Planar Focus set because those benefits stack with all other items. Even with the new crit range Seeker X equals only 6 damage per hit and the Planar Focus set already gives you +4 plus the two AOEs and the other benefits. The value depends much on which items you have elsewhere in your gear slots. That is also true for the ring slot with Consuming Darkness depending on what else you put in that slot. The items i suggest are mostly things that one should consider using if they are available. Discussing the overall usefulness of single items is not really fruitful when the rest of the gear layout is missing other crucial effects so finally it depends on the individual gear layout which items have the most benefit to DPS or defense.

[RumbIe]

I'm trying to wrap my head around easy to get above 60 dex.

Pretty sure I started with 20 Dex if i recall as I followed build advice. I'm level 25 now with all level ups into dex and I'm showing my base as 26.

So 26 base + 2 dex from drow tree +1 dex from henshin mystic + 2 dex from ninja spy + 2 ninja spy cap + 4 tome = 37 dex

Gear I have right now +8 dex bracers and + 2 insightful = 10 dex from gear. At level 25 I could play around with my gear allotment. I have a +9 dex prisoners manacles I could switch in, but it woudl cost me 35 HP from the item I have now (+8 dex of FL +35). Say I do and I find a +3 insightful item that combines give +2 more dex for a +10 gear bump

Now I'm at 47 dex with enhancements, tomes and gear.

Shiradi ED. I'm working on getting more twists, but cocoon is a must. In Shiradi the build says CC and I believe it. Pin and Whistler are nice. Do I give up Nerve Venom? I saw a post saying can't live without. So those CC, plus I assume Tea with the Queen and double rainbow don't leave a lot. I only have 1 dex point in that tree. Let's say I drop some cc and tea, that would get me 3 dex points, but I'm losing CC.

So now I'm at 50, but no CC. Shippies at 52. Granted I have 3 levels to go and better dex gear as I go up, but that's 8 points missing just to get to 60. 18 points missing to get to 70. Yugo pots? Sure I guess, but do you really count those now for sustainable stats? Heck I might really could shippies towards that number to be honest.

What am I missing? I mean I love my thrower. Does fantastic, good cc, survivable, can't see other guys numbers in a group, but I'm sure I'm laying down some damage. Wouldn't mind doing more though as I feel I'm not soloing an EE without a hire just yet. Maybe low level EEs, but not Storm.