Shiradi Shuricannon

[Scrag]

As i posted earlier, even a mediocre wisdom score gives >50% double shot for 30sec, and lose all other doubleshot for 45 sec. Then you'd need at least 2/3 of what you'd get from 10k stars for dps to be comparable. So, with a wis of 24, you'd need at least 34% double shot.
as to how high it can get, 6% item, 9% past lives, 10% doubleshot feat for 25% with significant investment. Ranger levels can increase this, but only with short term buffs.


So basically, no. You can't beat 10k stars.

You can get 15% from grandmaster of wind stance. Thats 34% right there. 9 from lives, 15 from stance, 10 from feat.
Moreover, drow get shuriken expertise for free. With 40 dex, thats 40% chance to throw an extra shuriken. Yes, it is totally possible to compete with 10k without needing 10k.

10k is useful only when in water stance.

[DethTrip]

You can get 15% from grandmaster of wind stance. Thats 34% right there. 9 from lives, 15 from stance, 10 from feat.
Moreover, drow get shuriken expertise for free. With 40 dex, thats 40% chance to throw an extra shuriken. Yes, it is totally possible to compete with 10k without needing 10k.

10k is useful only when in water stance.

Oh wow, you're right. Forgot about the thrown attack speed part of GM wind. So if master of imbuement works on shurikens (and stacks of course), you could possibly get up to 50% doubleshot?!? I bet that would be amazing on this build. I wonder how 50% doubleshot would fare against 10k when you consider the cool down and everything?

[DethTrip]

You can get 15% from grandmaster of wind stance. Thats 34% right there. 9 from lives, 15 from stance, 10 from feat.
Moreover, drow get shuriken expertise for free. With 40 dex, thats 40% chance to throw an extra shuriken. Yes, it is totally possible to compete with 10k without needing 10k.

10k is useful only when in water stance.

Can't edit my other post for some reason. I replied a little too quickly it seems. Anyway, the 15% from gm air is to attack speed and also gives 10% melee doublestrike. Are you saying gm wind is giving 15% doubleshot to thrown weapons even though it is not in the description?

Also, 10k is still useful even when not in gm water. Of course the chance of extra projectiles is based off your wisdom score and gm water can help this but 10k can work in other stances as well just fine.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

You can get 15% from grandmaster of wind stance. Thats 34% right there. 9 from lives, 15 from stance, 10 from feat.
Moreover, drow get shuriken expertise for free. With 40 dex, thats 40% chance to throw an extra shuriken. Yes, it is totally possible to compete with 10k without needing 10k.

10k is useful only when in water stance.

this is so wrong i'm not even sure where to begin...

Grandmaster of wind stance offers throwing attack speed, not doublestrike.

from http://ddowiki.com/page/Grandmaster_of_Forms

Grandmaster of Wind: Wind Stance now grants +4 Dexterity, a 15% Enhancement bonus to melee and thrown attack speed, and grants a 10% chance to doublestrike with melee weapons, at the cost of -2 Constitution.

Next, neither shuriken expertise nor the effect of Advance ninja training affect your double shot. Double shot is completely and totally separate. These two effects offer a % chance based on your dex score to throw an extra shuriken.

Next 10k stars STACKS!!!!! with shuriken expertise AND the ninja spy extra shuriken chance. The only thing it doesn't stack with is double shot.

[Firewall]

Thanks for your nice posts guys! Great that you are enjoying this build.

@Moonhaven2: Lighting the candle is a nice one if you can squeeze the AP's in to get it. As is Venomed Blades. Venomed blades has the little advantage if giving you 1d4 poison damage for 2 action points already (the higher tiers give less damage per AP) and it is also affected by the poison vulnerability that the Sting of the Ninja provides but of course some mobs are immune to it - which is also true for fire damage.

I for myself tried to max out the additional DEX bonuses and got 7 from enhancements and since you are kind of fixed at 41 points in the ninja spy tree if you want to have the capstone that does not leave much to spend points on. I preferred to go a bit deeper into the shintao tree to get the full bonus of the Conditioning enhancement but as i said earlier personal preference might be different and this build leaves some space for customization.

@Scrag: Not sure where you take your numbers from but i have to agree fully with ArcaneArcher in this case. You can't beat 10k stars with Doubleshot, you can't get Doubleshot from Wind Stance. And Shuriken Expertise or Ninja Training don't have anything to do with it either.

[trapbait]

Thanks for your nice posts guys! Great that you are enjoying this build.

@Moonhaven2: Lighting the candle is a nice one if you can squeeze the AP's in to get it. As is Venomed Blades. Venomed blades has the little advantage if giving you 1d4 poison damage for 2 action points already (the higher tiers give less damage per AP) and it is also affected by the poison vulnerability that the Sting of the Ninja provides but of course some mobs are immune to it - which is also true for fire damage.

I for myself tried to max out the additional DEX bonuses and got 7 from enhancements and since you are kind of fixed at 41 points in the ninja spy tree if you want to have the capstone that does not leave much to spend points on. I preferred to go a bit deeper into the shintao tree to get the full bonus of the Conditioning enhancement but as i said earlier personal preference might be different and this build leaves some space for customization.

@Scrag: Not sure where you take your numbers from but i have to agree fully with ArcaneArcher in this case. You can't beat 10k stars with Doubleshot, you can't get Doubleshot from Wind Stance. And Shuriken Expertise or Ninja Training don't have anything to do with it either.

Absolutely,

In fact I have stopped chasing the "doubleshot" period. The way I look at it my Dex gives me a standing 56% chance to "doubleshot" that works constantly, so why wast point, and items trying to get it? Further my DEX focus allows me to add that to my chosen melee weapons to hit, and above all it adds to my damage, so a big phooey to ye ol doubleshot.

As I said before, the 10k star is nice with expertise and a very high dex as the numbers I put up previously show.

One disclaimer though, as I went with the ranger/monk version that is 14 levels of ranger my AC and and ability to live through a butt kicking at close range are not anywhere near the OP's version, granted I do have a really high dex and hitting power, but in all honesty Im just a step above a glass canon. Very tricky to solo at low mid levs, especially prior to U19.

[Cyr]

@Scrag: Not sure where you take your numbers from but i have to agree fully with ArcaneArcher in this case. You can't beat 10k stars with Doubleshot, you can't get Doubleshot from Wind Stance. And Shuriken Expertise or Ninja Training don't have anything to do with it either.

Agrred that wind stance != doubleshot. However , I am surprised that no one mentioned killer considering lots of these builds splash rogue anyways. Not much use in single boss fights, but lots of uptime otherwise and brings doubleshot well over the mediocrewisdom threshold.

[Firewall]

Agrred that wind stance != doubleshot. However , I am surprised that no one mentioned killer considering lots of these builds splash rogue anyways. Not much use in single boss fights, but lots of uptime otherwise and brings doubleshot well over the mediocrewisdom threshold.

Noone mentioned Killer because - at least as far as i'm concerned - we were still talking about the shuricannon build with 20 levels of monk.

Killer is neither permanent nor reliable especially if you are running with a group of players and is only sustainable with groups of trash mobs but not against bosses so it is a very situational buff. Not sure if the AP you have to spend on it are worth it since it is a tier 4 enhancement. But you don't have it on a monk anyway so no need to discuss it here.

Since WIS is the 2nd most valuable attribute in this build you usually have better than mediocre WIS (depending on what you call mediocre). My char is at 60 DEX and 34 WIS right now with ship buffs only and not optimally geared (+9 Epic Normal Shadowsight, +1 Except. WIS, no insightful WIS, +4 tome). So with a yugoloth Pot, better gear and a bard buff you can achieve more than 40. The 24 WIS that ArcaneArcher used as example is way too low compared to what this build will usually run with at level cap. That means that even with only 34 WIS you already have a 66% chance for a 4th shuriken and a 16% chance for a 5th every time you use 10k stars (reliable even against bosses) which is impossible to beat on a pure monk with doubleshot alone especially since Doubleshot is not found on spelltouched shuriken.

[Firewall]

I'm still not really happy with my epic destiny feats. Guardian Angel seems to be a very weak one and i rarely get that low on HP that it procs. And when i get that low it mostly does not help much either because usually it is spells like polar ray and such with high damage and no save that bring me low. I will try and switch that out against Epic Mage Armor when next i Epic TR since it gives me another 10 AC which would bring me above 130 AC for 5 spellpoints for 10 minutes and i can even buff friends with it. This could be a more permanent benefit.

Since Doubleshot is not really that useful at level 28 with the 10k stars debuff most of the time i will probably switch that out against +20 positive spellpower since because i use Celestia i don't have a red augment slot to put in devotion spellpower in mid-fight which makes my cocoon heals quite weak. I hope this will help a bit.
For heals between fights you can switch in a weapon with a red augment slot with devotion spellpower slotted of course but usually you can simply use Wholeness of Body for free healing without spending spellpoints.

Changes will be in effect earliest mid to end of december. I just wanted to let you know for anyone that wants to try the changes already and write down what they think about it.

If anyone is interested: Since Doublestrike is weak i'm still debating if i take Fast Healing or Colors of the Queen as an Epic Past Life Feat. Right now i'm tending towards Fast Healing since the build is still weak on heals and when level 30 will be cap that will be 105 points of healing (maybe affected by Heal Amp) every minute and you don't need any spellpoints for it which is good in situations like CitW where Lolth drains you of SP or as an emergency heal when you are busy kiting mobs. Also Colors of the Queen will only have a 7% chance to proc every 10 seconds at best (with 3 epic past life feats) which is not that much since it doesn't take advantage of the high attack speed of my shuriken. Any opinions on this?

[ArcaneArcher52689]

If anyone is interested: Since Doublestrike is weak i'm still debating if i take Fast Healing or Colors of the Queen as an Epic Past Life Feat. Right now i'm tending towards Fast Healing since the build is still weak on heals and when level 30 will be cap that will be 105 points of healing (maybe affected by Heal Amp) every minute and you don't need any spellpoints for it which is good in situations like CitW where Lolth drains you of SP or as an emergency heal when you are busy kiting mobs. Also Colors of the Queen will only have a 7% chance to proc every 10 seconds at best (with 3 epic past life feats) which is not that much since it doesn't take advantage of the high attack speed of my shuriken. Any opinions on this?

I'd lean more towards colors of the queen. with such a high rate of attack speed, it's very likely that you'll proc it once every 15-20 seconds(including cooldown). Also, if you ever HTR again, colors works in low level content, basically letting you be shiradi the entire time. Also, I just don't like HoT's with that long of an interval.

[Raliar]

Definately go with colors of the queen in my opinion it doesn't even require thought after looking at it. Colors of the queen has a stronger more limited spell list so it doesn't proc things like grease and fast healing is well not fast and barely worth it.

Also the life stealing effect you say that has been nerfed I think this is not the case for "life stealing weapons" like obscenity and life stealing but the effect on named items. I think this is a huge misconception that people are confusing themselves with. I have used my obscenity khopesh before and after these changes and it seems to proc the same.

I went with your build out of haste but was curious with those who have tried the more sneak attack centric one to talk about damage. They creator of that build does seem to be more experienced. Either way both builds seem fine but I think, I could be wrong, the other build might out dps this one.

[Firewall]

Definately go with colors of the queen in my opinion it doesn't even require thought after looking at it. Colors of the queen has a stronger more limited spell list so it doesn't proc things like grease and fast healing is well not fast and barely worth it.

Also the life stealing effect you say that has been nerfed I think this is not the case for "life stealing weapons" like obscenity and life stealing but the effect on named items. I think this is a huge misconception that people are confusing themselves with. I have used my obscenity khopesh before and after these changes and it seems to proc the same.

I went with your build out of haste but was curious with those who have tried the more sneak attack centric one to talk about damage. They creator of that build does seem to be more experienced. Either way both builds seem fine but I think, I could be wrong, the other build might out dps this one.

I haven't had the option to try CotQ yet and still have not found a source on what it procs and what it doesn't proc. I expect it to be as random as Double Rainbow is (which doesn't proc Level Drain and grease anymore either) if it's not entirely the same. And i also expect it to change with updates as double rainbow does so usefulness may vary especially with more debuffs after the last update.

Of course i am talking about the Life Stealing effect on named weapons like everybody else: http://ddowiki.com/page/Life_Stealing which was changed in the last update and which also effects Eveningstar Challenge weapons and thus spelltouched shuriken. I'm not talking about level draining in general which you might have misunderstood. Things like the new Mabar Augment (which procs on every vorpal) or the Soul Eating effect on Grave Wrappings are still as good as they were before. But for spelltouched shuriken (with a bugged improved critical range as of now) the effect is much worse than proccing on every vorpal for many reasons.

If you are talking about the pew-pew build my shuricannon was posted three month ahead of it and i fully expected someone to come up with something related but different sooner or later based on the discussions and improvements that were going on in the thrower threads on the forums since my build was posted. I even posted in other shuriken threads suggestions for a sneak attack build but if you read this thread here carefully you might have found my arguments why i didn't go that way. I even added to the discussion to help improve the pew-pew build and congratulated the designer on it since i think it is a great build but it is a lot different than the shuricannon even if it is based on the same basics.

The pew-pew build sacrifices a lot of the defensive capability of the shuricannon for burst damage and more damage at sneak attack range.

Namely the shuricannon has better Saves, way more than double the AC (way above 130), highest possible Spell Resistance, Vorpal and damage at extreme range (without counting bursts), higher running speed, +10% Heal Amp from Shintao, DR/Epic and higher WIS for 10k stars (the pew-pew starts with 4 less WIS, which comes down to less attacks per minute than the shuricannon). I think the shuricannon even has a higher standing DEX because the pew-pew build misses the +2 DEX from the ninja spy capstone and the shuricannon also might have more hitpoints due to gear and enhancement choices (GH Flawless white dragon set bonus, Conditioning from Shintao).
The shuricannon has the potential of a standing BAB of 25 when the cap is raised to 30 (and thus the next step in attack animation speed) while the pew-pew can only reach that during Tenser's and the shuricannon will have a higher crit range - when they hopefully finally fix it somewhen (the pew-pew even completely ignores the - so far not working - extended crit range to put AP elsewhere).

Against red nameds with high fortification and without bursts they do about the same base physical damage per hit.

The pew-pew build excels at burst damage (because of Tenser's scrolls and a limited number of 20 second Assassin Damage Boosts (+30%)), UMD, positive Spellpower, more Sneak Attack and Trapskills but unfolds its power of course mostly during bursts and at (extended) sneak attack range which is a really great concept.

So finally - as always - it comes down to personal preference what you like best.

[Raliar]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I also wanted to possibly throw an idea I read on another forum, if possibly ditching 10k stars and stacking double shot could possibly yeild more throwing shurikens then coupled with 10k. I haven't mathed this at myself but if you stack rogue mech with the epic destiny feat doubleshot and killer that could potentially yield 40% double shot with 20% always active. I tried this on my rogue life and it worked quite well. I think this might go awesome with shurikens to yield the most possible sharadi procs.

I checked the build I discussed earlier and his dodge is 26% and saves are around 5070/50 ish so defensively they're very similar. Your build has some very obvious advantages that only 20 monk would yield.

[Firewall]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

I also wanted to possibly throw an idea I read on another forum, if possibly ditching 10k stars and stacking double shot could possibly yeild more throwing shurikens then coupled with 10k. I haven't mathed this at myself but if you stack rogue mech with the epic destiny feat doubleshot and killer that could potentially yield 40% double shot with 20% always active. I tried this on my rogue life and it worked quite well. I think this might go awesome with shurikens to yield the most possible sharadi procs.

I checked the build I discussed earlier and his dodge is 26% and saves are around 5070/50 ish so defensively they're very similar. Your build has some very obvious advantages that only 20 monk would yield.

Don't forget that all the numbers you see there are from a triple completionist (so LOTS of past life feat bonuses!) and including the completionist feat (+2 to all stats and +2 to all skills) and also including top-notch gear, all ship buffs and GH. Due to that you might be far behind the numbers you see there if you want to reproduce the build on a toon with no completionist or even as a first life or second life character if it is possible at all (you might not be able to have high enough skills and UMD for example but i did not check it).

My build is the more convenient one i would say - which is my personal preference - since you don't have to watch boost timers, crucial buffs and special attacks, switch gear for traps and scroll usage, watch for staying in sneak attack range and be dependant on scroll buffs.

I don't want to start a competition here since the builds have a different concept and are really good in what they do. Just to explain my arguments and what i meant with better defenses:

Saves might be not be that much ahead. My reference was based on the fact that i already reach the values that he gave without a completionist feat and past lives and i still have some things left to improve mine. I was too lazy to crunch the numbers but basically 20 levels of monk has already the best basis for saves from all classes, i start with 4 more WIS, i have Conditioning and the tier 2 core enhancement from shintao which give me +3 to fort saves and +1 save against tainted creatures and have the bulwark of defense feat for +2 to all saves (which he overcompensates a little with the three halfling core enhancements). I think i am marginally better in DEX so that might make a difference too.

Anyway...What i meant with better defenses does not come down to only saves and 2% better dodge like you make it sound. The shuricannon is way ahead in AC and spell resistance (44 due to drow core enhancements - where the pew-pew has none), has 10 DR/Epic, more HP, +10% Heal Amp. and is immune to Hold Person due to 20 monk making you a lawful outsider. And because it is a ranged build where kiting is bread and butter i even count the 10% faster running speed as being a defensive as well as a convenience bonus.

Considering the Doubleshot discussion: we just had it a few posts earlier in this thread and the conclusion is that you cannot be better with doubleshot because this build has enough WIS to overcompensate it with 10k stars by far.

[Firewall]

Another change for endgame characters:

Since i am already two points above the dodge cap with a +9% dodge item i decided to take two points away from the Improved Dodge Enhancement in the Drow racial enhancement tree and put them into the first tiers of Venom Lore and Venomed Blades which boosts my damage a bit more. I will change that in the AP distribution in the OP.

[TeacherSyn]

Still haven't played almost anything in my collection of characters but this one: It's that fun. Once I crafted a Green Steel Triple Positive Disruptor, I owned the Subterrane and did something I've never done before: Explore the entire thing. Even took out Garamol for a chance at some Icy Raiments; only my tanker Light Monk's been able to do this before, and with far more healing options. Healing was a problem but one Epic Hard trip through VoN3 with Primal Avatar newly activated gave me 4 DP immediately for Rejuvination Cocoon, which works great with a Devotion item and the PDK Gauntlets for better battle healing. Noted some endgame thoughts of my own build on my blog.

Do strive to get an L20 or better Improved Paralyzing spelltouched star. Next to a Life Stealing one (not yet in my possession) this thing is powerful enough to paralyze enemies even in EE (much to the chagrin of mobs in "Bargain of Blood" last night).

Update 20.1 is arriving this morning, and with it comes back many of the interesting combined weapon effects lost to past updates.

So I'm hoping to see many more returned and diverse off-hand weapons we can hold to give things that otherwise took some grinding to find. I think the "Frozen" prefix is what I'd love to have, since completing Cannith challenges in comparison to Eveningstar challenges (for spelltouched shuriken) is a PITA for getting any kind of Frozen Tunic built. Still, unless this update changes what is noted on the DDO Wiki, it's still a L21 prefix on weapons, which doesn't help Heroic play at all. I'm still working on getting some knowledgeable guildies to help here.

Any personal favorites (aside from Seeker and Deception) should we all look forward to finding on the returning prefixes and suffixes that augment our shuriken for Heroic play?

[nat_1]

@Spencerian: First, "thanks" doesn't cut it for all you've done for monk and D&D lore. It will have to do, I guess, so thanks. Just wanted to point out that the Frozen Tunic is a 5% proc no matter the level or tier, so you might consider your level of willingness to farm and really look at how much a few points of armor bonus, a cold shield proc, or augments are worth to you.

@Firewall, thank you as well for a well crafted and thought out build. This is one that will define a period of DDO for me when I look back.

Is there any reason to run as a Dark Monk? Am I missing a prerequisite somewhere? Because it seems like all the dark finisher stuff requires melee while the light monk buffs could be used before a fight given the high level of passive ki regen.

Shadow Star got a minor buff at some point from +1 to +2, not sure when but I noticed it when running STK with an old version. How crazy is that base damage? Higher than Greensteel! You have to go up to the lvl 25 Morningstar to get higher. So, if to-hit isn't an issue, and you are up against something that resists whatever effects you have available in your shuriken collection am I right that the best fall back is the min lvl 2?

Did you guys notice the last part of the description of the Shadow Cookie from 20.1: "...as well as letting you deal strength damage on melee and ranged critical hits." One more proc to tack on.

[TeacherSyn]

@Spencerian: First, "thanks" doesn't cut it for all you've done for monk and D&D lore. It will have to do, I guess, so thanks. Just wanted to point out that the Frozen Tunic is a 5% proc no matter the level or tier, so you might consider your level of willingness to farm and really look at how much a few points of armor bonus, a cold shield proc, or augments are worth to you.

@Firewall, thank you as well for a well crafted and thought out build. This is one that will define a period of DDO for me when I look back.

Is there any reason to run as a Dark Monk? Am I missing a prerequisite somewhere? Because it seems like all the dark finisher stuff requires melee while the light monk buffs could be used before a fight given the high level of passive ki regen.

Shadow Star got a minor buff at some point from +1 to +2, not sure when but I noticed it when running STK with an old version. How crazy is that base damage? Higher than Greensteel! You have to go up to the lvl 25 Morningstar to get higher. So, if to-hit isn't an issue, and you are up against something that resists whatever effects you have available in your shuriken collection am I right that the best fall back is the min lvl 2?

Did you guys notice the last part of the description of the Shadow Cookie from 20.1: "...as well as letting you deal strength damage on melee and ranged critical hits." One more proc to tack on.

Thanks for the comments on the Monk guide and blog. It's not so much that I'm "all knowledgeable" or anything but that I'm pretty good in compiling separated pieces of information into something useful for a specific thing. In this case, Monks.

Going Dark Monk is required since they gain increasing bonuses to any weapons with piercing/slashing damage, in this case, throwing stars. By 20, only the Ninja Spy offers Ninja Master and its vorpals. No word yet on if we'll get that crit modifier as well that's been bugged out for some time. The Sneak Attack and Ninja Poison are also great additions.

[nat_1]

Thanks for the comments on the Monk guide and blog. It's not so much that I'm "all knowledgeable" or anything but that I'm pretty good in compiling separated pieces of information into something useful for a specific thing. In this case, Monks.

Going Dark Monk is required since they gain increasing bonuses to any weapons with piercing/slashing damage, in this case, throwing stars. By 20, only the Ninja Spy offers Ninja Master and its vorpals. No word yet on if we'll get that crit modifier as well that's been bugged out for some time. The Sneak Attack and Ninja Poison are also great additions.

Is Ninja Spy still tied to Path of Inevitable Dominion? Or would it only lock out the Touch of Despair modifier tree and Touch of Death? If I can I'd rather be a Light Monk if I can still get what I need out of Ninja Spy since the dark finishers are basically unused.

[TeacherSyn]

Is Ninja Spy still tied to Path of Inevitable Dominion? Or would it only lock out the Touch of Despair modifier tree and Touch of Death? If I can I'd rather be a Light Monk if I can still get what I need out of Ninja Spy since the dark finishers are basically unused.

Ninja Spy is still primarily locked with the Dark path. Anyone of any philosophy can choose many of the Ninja skills (which means a Shintao can gain shortsword proficiency and train up to gain incorporeality and invisibility without affecting their overall Shintao training). But to use things such as Touch of Death and Despair require choosing the Fists of Darkness.

To make the most of the build, you must go Ninja Spy. By level 20. you vorpal with stars, the lowest base damage weapon in-game, and it is a marvel to behold.

Once you choose any one Tier 5 ability in any tree, you lock out any other Tier 5 abilities in other trees. Going Drow gives you the free feat Shuriken Expertise as a racial bonus and natural racial shuriken proficiencies and abilities to make them superior in star usage than any other race, even halflings.

Not sure if you were asking that question in general, but the Shuricannon build is specifically designed to use shurikens as their sole weapon. Since ki attacks (save Ten Thousand Stars) cannot be used with ranged/thrown attacks, you won't be using any ki attacks them in this build (including Touch of Death) and will not go unarmed unless strictly necessary, such as bashing down doors. However, the very low STR often prohibits even doing this at lower levels until you can paste in some STR to get sufficient levels to open doors. Your defenses will be great with evasion and other miss-chance effects but your behavior will be more of an archer than a Monk. All weapon damage is created by enhancements, ability scores and the stars themselves, not ki itself. You'd waste points placed in ToD for this build and should allocate them to improving weapon damage or defenses.

WIS is still important for reasons said in recent posts but, using a star, you don't factor in the usual DCs for stunning and such.