Shiradi Shuricannon

[Luskacik]

so I tried a swashbuckler (my PDK/barbarian past life couldnt have monk anyway :-)) and one big disappointment is that the enhanced crit multiplier is bugged and my shuriken is still x2 when swashbuckling. I crit a **** lot, but it sure would've been a lot nicer if it was x3... also halfling is absolutely necessary or you won't get DEX damage mod. If they fix the crit multiplier, SB will actually be a viable thrower build, since the insane swashbuckling crit profile actually makes up for the ninja extra shuriken chance and 10K stars, but as said, only if they fix it, with 2x the crits don't have as much bang and you lose DPS against a double shuriken expertise... I went for ravager with the +2 crit range so critting on 13-20 but the rage is so bad I dropped it after a few hours of playing, how can anyone play barbs and not even be able to use clickies :-D when I get to cap I will see if kensai threat extension stack, I think it does, so I will have 13-20 anyway without the horrible rage :-D

[Firewall]

so I tried a swashbuckler (my PDK/barbarian past life couldnt have monk anyway :-)) and one big disappointment is that the enhanced crit multiplier is bugged and my shuriken is still x2 when swashbuckling. I crit a **** lot, but it sure would've been a lot nicer if it was x3... also halfling is absolutely necessary or you won't get DEX damage mod. If they fix the crit multiplier, SB will actually be a viable thrower build, since the insane swashbuckling crit profile actually makes up for the ninja extra shuriken chance and 10K stars, but as said, only if they fix it, with 2x the crits don't have as much bang and you lose DPS against a double shuriken expertise... I went for ravager with the +2 crit range so critting on 13-20 but the rage is so bad I dropped it after a few hours of playing, how can anyone play barbs and not even be able to use clickies :-D when I get to cap I will see if kensai threat extension stack, I think it does, so I will have 13-20 anyway without the horrible rage :-D

It might be viable but it won't come close to the damage a Shuricannon can do. Leaving all other damage bonuses of a monk or SB aside the Shuricannon has the same crit range that a SB has with shuriken. The extra multiplier is far less damage than the extra attacks you do with Ninja II and 10k stars because the crit multiplier only multiplies base damage whereas extra attacks are full damage with all weapon effects, shiradi damage and have another chance to be a critical. If you use a Tier 3 TF shuriken thats an insane additional amount of damage. Already Mortal Fear does thousands of damage if it procs and with 10k stars and Ninja II that is a lot more attacks to proc bonus damage. Also to get the bonus damage from the multiplier you have to confirm the crit and bypass the fortification which is not necessary for the damage from extra attacks. Having Coup de Grace will be nice against trash if they can get it fixed though.

I have played a bit in Divine Crusader lately because i needed Karma in the Divine Tree and it is quite nice if you have on-crit effects on your TF shuriken. The crit range expands to 13-20 too and Zeal of the Righteous gives some nice damage boost for bosses. Shiradi is still better though.

Kensai should not stack with SB since they are both competence bonuses. The same is true for the halfling crit range enhancement and Ninja Master. They all are not supposed to stack because they all originate from enhancements and have the same bonus type. People already confirmed that for Halfling and SB and i confirmed it for Halfling and Ninja Master. If Kensai would stack anyway that would be a bug.

[Luskacik]

I was comparing SB to my splash since it would be similar level split and have similar sneak damage capabilities, not to a pure monk who falls behind on DPS a bit (and I believe that's a conversation you don't want opened here again ) so only to a hafling with +1 threat range, not ninja capstone, and there the difference is more pronounced and actually comes out almost the same as that extra shuriken, of course more shuriken spawn more shiradi procs and venom and stuff, and there run speed and abundant step, I am not gonna change my final life plans, I just wanted to warn people before they roll a shuriken SB that it's bugged.

[Firewall]

Yes it's really sad that there are still so many bugs with throwers. On the other hand the Devs already said on Lamannia that Single Weapon Fighting (and thus Swift Strikes and all that is connected) was not meant to work with thrown weapons. Still i think there should be more options for DEX to damage than only taking halfling as a race.

[Luskacik]

Agreed, maybe a feat for DEX to dmg with finessable or thrown weapons... That SWF doesn't work is OK I think, it wasn't meant for that, though again at least swashbuckler shoudl have an option for DEX to dmg with throwers, not only with SWF...

And you're right with the kensai, the threat range won't stack, I was hopeful as the ravager threat range increase stacks... but rage is just so unbearable :-D

[Nodoze]

Yes it's really sad that there are still so many bugs with throwers. On the other hand the Devs already said on Lamannia that Single Weapon Fighting (and thus Swift Strikes and all that is connected) was not meant to work with thrown weapons. Still i think there should be more options for DEX to damage than only taking halfling as a race.

Agreed, maybe a feat for DEX to dmg with finessable or thrown weapons... That SWF doesn't work is OK I think, it wasn't meant for that, though again at least swashbuckler shoudl have an option for DEX to dmg with throwers, not only with SWF...

And you're right with the kensai, the threat range won't stack, I was hopeful as the ravager threat range increase stacks... but rage is just so unbearable :-D

Elves get Dex to damage with Elven weapons so there are other races who can get Dex to damage at range (just not shuriken unless monk). I kind of like that races excel at some things others can't though sometimes more options are better... Hard choices...

Regarding the barb splashes & crit ranges/multipliers, there was a thread a while back that showed you could get quite a bit of Barbarian healing if running in Divine Crusader:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...aged-epic-barb

May not be ideal but maybe could make the Barb life more bearable.

[Caprice]

The other racial choices have their uses for other builds but they are not great for throwers:
- Elves and Morninglords can get DEX to damage but not with any throwing weapons, although they can increase PBS & SA range
- Dwarves can get CON to damage to either throwing axes or throwing hammers, but there is no way at all to get CON to attack
- PDKs can get CHA to attack & damage, but not with any throwing weapons
- Drows can get flat attack & damage bonuses to shuriken
- Halflings can get DEX to damage with thrown weapons, Crit Threat increased with all throwing weapons, and +1[W] when throwing while sneaking

Anyone can pick up the Brutal Throw feat to get STR to attack with throwing weapons, but there's no synergy with other throwing abilities otherwise (e.g. no double/triple throwing % chance based on STR).

I really wish that the Swashbuckler "Different Tack" enhancement worked while Swashbuckling instead of just for Single Weapon Fighting. I had a crazy INT-based Swashbuckling Artificer thrower flavor build in mind.

[TeacherSyn]

While the Sting of the Ninja isn't applying, things have gotten worse based on testing with my shortsword-wielding ninja.

I'm not seeing Ninja Poison itself applying from anything except the Poisoned Darts. Neither critical hits that apply the Sting nor the Poisoned Soul ninjutsu effect are applying.

I've added a bug report, so please add your own on both Sting as well as Ninja Poison itself when you can so that we get the dev's attention.

[RumbIe]

Hadn't seen a FOT in ages and then finally 2 in a row and have enough COH for Dragonscale. (Rebellion and Celestial will likely never happen given my luck and the times I see an LFM up).

In any case to make sure I put my precious 4 COH to the best use what is the better armor, black or white, if I am only crafting one and it likely won't be upgraded for some time?

Thanks

[Firewall]

Hadn't seen a FOT in ages and then finally 2 in a row and have enough COH for Dragonscale. (Rebellion and Celestial will likely never happen given my luck and the times I see an LFM up).

In any case to make sure I put my precious 4 COH to the best use what is the better armor, black or white, if I am only crafting one and it likely won't be upgraded for some time?

Thanks

Depends a bit on your gear and playstyle.

I recommend the white robe if you want to reach EE viable AC (which will be even more valuable in the future since the Devs are planning to lower the to-hit values of EE mobs). You can upgrade it to have +11 armor, +8 protection, +8 shield bonus (which you can get from nowhere else) and it has +100 fortification. Along with a +1 armor ritual from the stone of change that is a lot of AC from one item. Also the set bonus gives you a nice +50 HP if you wear a white dragon helm.

The problem with the black armor is that you can have 20 armor piercing from upgraded Rebellion if you use it so those would not stack. If you use Celestia the set bonus does not stack with the planar focus set since both are the same type of bonus and +2 to attack and damage is not much anyway vs. the +4 of the planar focus set. Also the Haste Guard does not stack with the Blinding Speed feat and is rather unreliable. When the level cap reaches 30 you will be at throwing speed cap anyway and the Haste Guard will become even less useful. Relentless Fury is not worth it in my eyes if you also play lower epics for epic TRing or Sagas most trash mobs below your level will count as 'weaker opponent' and thus proc it at a lower chance or not at all.

[jakeelala]

If BaB 30 gives the same boosts as all other 5-BaB increments give, this is inaccurate. You would need 30 BaB to cap thrown speed as the cap would be higher. Effectively it might only be 5-7% increase in thrown speed, but there isn't much else that will increase your TOTAL DPS by 5-7% across the board (base damage, procs, and SA) all at once.

Based on the breakdown of damage on TF weapons for a thrower build, that's equivalent to roughly 10-14% increase in base damage (vs say, 20%base damage increase represented by +2 Crit threat from Ninja Spy capstone, plus a little bit of extra damage from on crit effects, but not on hit effects). If your damage is split evenly between procs (50% of total is physical, 50% of total is from procs), then that's really only a 10% increase in total damage. 20% vs 5-7% is a lot better than the reality of the Ninja Spy capstone which is really more like:

45% Base Damage
45% Proc
10% SA
For a 20 Monk Ninja Spy build.

So 20% more physical damage is .2*.45 = 9% increase in total DPS. Which isn't much more than the increase in damage from increased throwing speed with Full BaB vs. being below the highest BaB for thrown speed.

The point is, thrown attack speed increases proc, SA, and base damage equivalently. Many things that increase DPS only increase 1 of those 3 sources of thrown damage (proc, SA, or base damage) unilaterally. That means 1% of thrown attack speed is worth between 2-3% increase in only one of the 3 damage sources independently.

Not having full BaB and Ninja Spy capstone is about roughly equivalent to difference between having full BaB attack bonus and only having Halfling Crit Threat +1.

Of course, the halfing has +1W when sneak throwing and 3 more SA dice. But that's another topic.

[RumbIe]

Thank you as always Firewall. COH have been hard to come by for me so I wanted to be triple sure of the best route with new updates and all. It's your build and playstyle and I've followed it and enjoyed it so far so I'll keep along that path. White robes it is. I'm only at 102 AC in water stance right now with spiderspun, but I know there's more gear I could tinker with to bump it up and twist in the improved CE feat too. For instance I think I only have +7 natural armor protection from an item and I could get +9 at level 27. Plus a couple more small things that will add up.

[DethTrip]

You can lead a horse to water...and my ac is higher.

What's up with the arrogance here? All you're doing at this point is being a troll. Certainly makes you sound like a 12 year old that thinks playing a game makes him special. Grow up a little kid.

@Firewall, is there anything that changed about this build since U22 came out from the OP? You haven't updated it since May I see.

[Firewall]

If BaB 30 gives the same boosts as all other 5-BaB increments give, this is inaccurate. (...)

I have no idea why you always come here to try to convince people that i give wrong information whereas it is you that proves to be more than inaccurate just to prove your point. You said you had decided not to argue with me again so i thought you would stop trolling or keep it to your own thread.

But maybe i just missed the part in your post where you wanted to help Rumble decide which robe to select by listing pros and cons which is what my post was all about.

To pick some of your points:

For all we know and for all you yourself have tested there is a current hardcap to throwing speed which cannot be overcome regardless of what type of speed boosts you put into play. And also according to your own tests that speed cap is basically already achieved with only BAB 25 and Whirling Wrists. The Shuricannon so far even uses Blinding Speed so it compensates for not having BAB 25 just yet. There is no indication whatsoever that a BAB of 30 will be able to overcome the existing hardcap where all other sources of attack speed can not so there is absolutely no need to make a whole post splitting hairs about it.

Your damage calculation is also not accurate. I won't go into detail since i'm tired of your DPS discussions but as you yourself should know for example 'the little bit of extra damage' of the on-crit effects of TF weapons are basically on-every-crit effects since all on-crit effects do not need to bypass fortification to do damage which has been that way for ages (otherwise good burst and good blast on triple positive ML12 greensteel weapons would have been useless against undead at that level when there was no way to bypass fortification in the early DDO days). The effects only have to hit and confirm the crit which is basically 95% of the time because the attack values are over the top already and they are even boosted some more by Seeker items for crits. This is why crit range is much more valuable than crit multipliers.

That's just one example so please just stop nitpicking on DPS stuff and keep your trolling to other threads.

[Firewall]

What's up with the arrogance here? All you're doing at this point is being a troll. Certainly makes you sound like a 12 year old that thinks playing a game makes him special. Grow up a little kid.

@Firewall, is there anything that changed about this build since U22 came out from the OP? You haven't updated it since May I see.

Since i was busy finishing my epic completionist i have not farmed the new endgame items from Haunted Halls and the Dragon Raids yet which means the gear layout is a bit outdated. Also Seeker items have become more valuable with the extended crit range now than they were when i posted the gear layout. When i have all the stuff and found a perfect layout for me i will post it here.

You could change Blinding Speed for Epic Reflexes if you tank the dragons in the Fire dragon raid a lot but i have done it without epic reflexes quite good since my epic completionist and the new ship buffs give me enough elemental absorption and resistance (and there is also the new boots with fire absorption in 3BC) that even if i fail the reflex save on a 1 my Improved Evasion is enough to not get me killed on the lower difficulties. But i have not tested it in the EE raid so far.

With the new ship buff giving another +3 to UMD it should be easier to achieve a working UMD value.

People who have the extra Twist slot from the Epic Completionist could either use it for an attribute to make it even or think about adding Purge the Wicked from the Divine Crusader or if you can reach a 4/3/1/1 split add the LD Tier 3 ability Critical Damage. You can also add Unearthly Reactions, Impregnable Mind or Dragonhide if you are more into boosting your saves or Lithe (Tier 2) for AC and reflex saves.

All the other stuff basically stayed the same.

[DethTrip]

Since i was busy finishing my epic completionist i have not farmed the new endgame items from Haunted Halls and the Dragon Raids yet which means the gear layout is a bit outdated. Also Seeker items have become more valuable with the extended crit range now than they were when i posted the gear layout. When i have all the stuff and found a perfect layout for me i will post it here.

You could change Blinding Speed for Epic Reflexes if you tank the dragons in the Fire dragon raid a lot but i have done it without epic reflexes quite good since my epic completionist and the new ship buffs give me enough elemental absorption and resistance (and there is also the new boots with fire absorption in 3BC) that even if i fail the reflex save on a 1 my Improved Evasion is enough to not get me killed on the lower difficulties. But i have not tested it in the EE raid so far.

With the new ship buff giving another +3 to UMD it should be easier to achieve a working UMD value.

People who have the extra Twist slot from the Epic Completionist could either use it for an attribute to make it even or think about adding Purge the Wicked from the Divine Crusader or if you can reach a 4/3/1/1 split add the LD Tier 3 ability Critical Damage. You can also add Unearthly Reactions, Impregnable Mind or Dragonhide if you are more into boosting your saves or Lithe (Tier 2) for AC and reflex saves.

All the other stuff basically stayed the same.

Thank you for the reply. I have a couple other questions. Please forgive me if these have already been answered as there are a ton of replies in this thread to sort through. I was considering replacing the level 2 feat with precision. Does precision work with shuriken and if so, why do you not use it? Also, have you tested with and without blinding speed? Does anyone know if it actually helps this build at all? Is there any noticeable difference? I may consider something else if not.

[RumbIe]

Thanks again. Forged my White Dragonscale robes, tinkered a bit, twisted in Lithe and now my AC is 117 in water stance. Not ee ready yet, but on my way. I'm also in Fury ED right now to level it some so no extra dex from an ED. I'm loathing the thought of having to do fatesinger to get Mage Armor (I have silver bypass now, but will switch) that should make my AC respectable and nearing 150. I just hate Fatesinger so much as I've had to go through it on so many toons and never once do I really use much from it.

[RumbIe]

To jakeelala - You have a great build too. I have it saved in my subscriptions and I will give it a shot. I like deep splashes a lot and have made TWF fighting wiz/ranger/monks that are great survivability, self healing machines even on first lives and not great gear. Geared out that style of build (like yours) will be great. Firewall is proposing a different style and approach to get to similar ends so no need to trash his (or her sorry Firewall no idea) work.

Back on track. So I know my AC goal and my reflexes are about 70 right now (again will eek them a bit higher soon) however what type of damage should i be seeing here? Anyone have a video of them chucking stars in Shuri and in SD? No TF yet for me. Just a Life Stealing Spell touched, but I'm curious if I'm even close to what you guys are dishing out or if I need to be working on that aspect now.

Lastly I see Nerve Venom often referenced as a good reason to not get Pin or Whistler. I have all 3 of Nerve Venom, but I find it rarely proc's. Maybe it's just me or that fact I have been running a lot of undead content lately, but even when not in HH or TF I don't think it goes often that often while ottos used to hit a lot.

Sorry - Last Lastly. I did try executioners shot while leveling SD and it was pretty cool. Line em up and fire and Ding Ding Ding. Made me miss my assassin. Too bad it's such a high level feat else it woudl be cool to twist in.

[Firewall]

@DethTrip: Yes Precision works with shuriken. The reason i did not choose it is that you cannot have Combat Expertise and Precision active at the same time and Precision does not work with Bulwark of Defense (which gives more AC and saves) since it does not count as defensive stance. The Shuricannon was built for defense and tanking from the beginning because of the synergy of high WIS and DEX and all the inherent monk bonuses to AC and because of Ki Shout and high damage for Intimidate or Hate tanking.

Most mobs even in epics don't have much fortification (except for undead and constructs) and since in endgame you will have Dragon's Edge on your TF shuriken anyway and on-crit damage applies regardless of fortification you only miss 15% of base damage criticals and sneak attack damage (but still apply all proc damage) on mobs with fortification higher than 40% (higher than 60% if you also use upgraded Rebellion in your offhand) and the Shuricannon does not rely much on SA damage anyway.
If you still want to go more into DPS you can drop AC altogether (because you won't be able to go above the threshold of viable EE AC anymore) and switch CE and Bulwark of Defense for Precision and something else.

Regarding Blinding Speed i see an increase in attack speed when taking it and so far i would also take it for convenience with running speed, dodge and reflex save increase but of course Epic Reflexes is a good alternative and you can still use Haste pots or clickies and UMD Tenser's scrolls for max BAB if you want.

@Rumble: Nerve Venom is a 7% proc so it is directly dependant on the number of attacks per timeframe and thus on high DEX, high WIS with 10k stars and high attack speed (and a bit of Doubleshot) to proc reliably and often. If you are far from endgame values in those aspects it probably won't hit as often as you would like. In that case Pin or Whistler might be a better and more reliable choice. Just test what layout in shiradi works best for you. It is easy to shift some points around. I personally prefer to have Double Rainbow and high DEX so i usually drop Pin and Whistler also for convenience since i don't like button smashing but for your character that might be different. Of course in undead or construct heavy content it won't proc anyway.

[jakeelala]

I didn't trash anything.

I explained why someone might want to have full BaB mathematically.

If that equals an attack then this means this thread is more about blind faith than good sense. People think that crit threat range from NS capstone is ore powerful than it actually is. I feel that people should understand exactly how powerful it is or isn't.

The Shuriken is an extremely low damage dice weapon with a x2 crit multiplier. That means crit threat range increases are the LEAST valuable to that weapon compared to say, a Khopesh or even just something with a higher base [W].

Everyone making shuriken builds needs to understand that. Even Firewall.

Moreover, if BaB at 30 follows the trend of BaB 1-25, then you will not have a capped throw rate at lvl 30 without 30 BaB. This is another important point Firewall just decided to tell people which was false. Also regarding On-Crit effects, Even with a 15-20 Crit range, the difference in DPS between that threat range with a TF weapon and 17-20 and a TF weapon is about 9-10% more proc damage, not total damage. So if that proc is giving you ~225 dmg on a crit, and you get it ~27% (you can always roll a 1 on crit confirm) of the time with 15-20 crit range, with 17-20 you get ~18% of the time. So

225x.27= 60.75 Average damage/Shuriken @Zero Fort
225x.18= 40.5 Average damage/Shuriken @Zero Fort

20 Damage a star seems significant at first glance. But the only place to get that kind of on-crit damage is in the form of Fire, which is highly resisted in game by many mobs. More importantly, it's only available as a Tier 3, which means no Mortal Fear. On trash, Mortal fear is VASTLY superior to any amount of damage you can do with an On-Crit proc effect, regularly going off for thousands of unresistable damage. Against bosses, many are fire immune. Even the ones that are not, the average damage of Mortal fear of ~32 Damage/Shuriken (largely unresistable Force typed) is roughly even. The level drain is nice, but many things resist level drain or are blanket immune.

"On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels." (~225 Damage) [Tier 3 TF]

He should have just said "thanks for the correction". I'm sorry for people who are scared by math.