Shiradi Shuricannon

[Ivan_Milic]

I do have one more question, in fact. I'm about to epic, then true, reincarnate, and I happen to have a LR+20. Is there any past life for a shuricannon more beneficial than just keeping my monk? (And which martial epic past life would you go for? Skills, fortification or double strike?)

Monk is good for pl.
I would go for colors of queen first, but from martial, skills.
Doublestrike is for melee.

[GrantAnderson]

Monk is good for pl.
I would go for colors of queen first, but from martial, skills.
Doublestrike is for melee.

I figured doublestrike was probably least likely, but I have no idea how much fortification is good these days. I've seen items giving over 100% fort, so I assume that is at least situationally useful.

[Luskacik]

I do have one more question, in fact. I'm about to epic, then true, reincarnate, and I happen to have a LR+20. Is there any past life for a shuricannon more beneficial than just keeping my monk? (And which martial epic past life would you go for? Skills, fortification or double strike?)

I would go for primal sphere doubleshot, as was said here it's still the best even when working only 25% of the time. If you must take martial sphere for some reason, it depends on your future plans, if you will likely return to melee, doublestrike is best by far and ETR is no joke so I would invest in the future and take it. If it's not likely, take fortification, epic mobs often have some degrees of armor piercing, so 100% fort is not enough anymore, and 900 crits are not fun.

And for heroic past life, on a fleshie paladin is actually best unless you already have 3 of those, heal amp sources are limited and rare and you can never have enough, no other past life can even compare and no other is worth spending a 20 LR just to get, the 2nd best is monk's +1 dmg and that is a a joke in comparison. But again if you ever plan completionist and there is a class you dread, might wanan keep that heart, monk is a good PL and you already have that class, it's all about future plans, but pally PL is best and actually leveling a pally is dreadful enough :-D

[GrantAnderson]

Well, mainly it's the Karma aspect. I believe it's six million required for an ER, and I currently have 5.5 million in Martial (thanks to GMoF, Shadowdancer, and enough Dreadnought to get me over to Fury for Sense Weakness), but only 1.9 million in Primal. Now that I'm 28, some of my favourite high-xp quests have dried up a bit in terms of xp due to the level gap, so my xp gain has also slowed down, and I'd rather crank out 500k than 4 million.

I guess maybe one day I might go for completionist (and if I'm planning to shuricannon my next life, I guess I should transform this monk life into something else). It's a bit sad that the Ranger +2 damage with ranged weapons doesn't apply to thrown weapons!

[Luskacik]

Well, mainly it's the Karma aspect. I believe it's six million required for an ER, and I currently have 5.5 million in Martial (thanks to GMoF, Shadowdancer, and enough Dreadnought to get me over to Fury for Sense Weakness), but only 1.9 million in Primal. Now that I'm 28, some of my favourite high-xp quests have dried up a bit in terms of xp due to the level gap, so my xp gain has also slowed down, and I'd rather crank out 500k than 4 million.

I guess maybe one day I might go for completionist (and if I'm planning to shuricannon my next life, I guess I should transform this monk life into something else). It's a bit sad that the Ranger +2 damage with ranged weapons doesn't apply to thrown weapons!

Yeah thought so :-) 6 mil karma XP is a bit much imo, they shoudl've kept 3 mil but oh well, anyway if shuricannon is just one life and you will be melee again I would definitely go for doublestrike EPL, and yes as you will be monk again, I'd go ahead and take a pally life for the heal amp, ranger doesn't work yes, it's too bad but it's strong enough as it is :-) imo despite the abysmal dmg and crits of shuriken and a lack of a good named one, shuriken throwers are the best ranged DPS now, you're throwing average of over 3 shuriken per throw, and your attacks are faster than with a bow, I've ran with archers and they paled in comparison, heck, anything except blitzing dreadnoughts paled...

[Luskacik]

Curiously I wonder how the extra shuriken chances stack, does anyone know that? Says i have 5% average doublestrike (10K factored in), a 44 WIS so about 53% average extra shuriken from 10K, and 70 DEX so 140% extra from expertise + ninja, do those bonuses jsut add or multiply? Double shot should multiply since it's a genuine extra attack with everything (and this is why doubleshot is great even if, but I have no idea how the 10K and expertise works, if say the 3 shuriken from expertise each can trigger extra shuriken through 10K... I'm guessing no since they way it's written is still just one throw but with more than one shuriken, plus I don't think I've ever seen over 6 shuriken per attack, but I didn't really test it, think I will do that, actually, but if anyone knows...

And even more curiously, this could put a dent into the claim that 10K stars beats doubleshot every time... Say I have 27% doubleshot (10 epic feat, 9 epic past lives, 8 item) don't think more is possible on a monk atm, if I'm wrong, by all means, correct me. With 74 dex (in windstance, if i don't care about 10K so i dont care about ki), 2.48 shuriken per attack, with that double shot that is ~ 3.15 shuriken on average. Compared to that the earlier example with 70 dex in water stance and 44 wis so ~ 53.3% (using formula from wiki) extra shuriken on average counting 10K active 50% of the time. With double expertise thats 1.4 + 0.533 + 1 = 2.933 shuriken per attack, with 6.75% average doubleshot that's ~ 3.13 shuriken per attack. This would mean 10K loses the DPS race, and you have to jump through hoops generating ki, even taking a twist for that. Also getting 44 wis is not that easy, so the diference will ususally be higher (ok 74 dex is also pretty max). But I bet there will be a possibility to get higher than 27% doubleshot on a pure monk, maybe there even is, if someone knows, weigh in

I must say it sucks that 10K does give that long double shot debuff, it should only debuff for 30 sec imo, this really makes the feat garbage at higher doubleshot levels and makes it work opposite to doubleshot as if one has to pick, kinda wasted potential imo. But potentially ditching 10K would save a feat and worrying about ki and WIS score. Also this puts the Rogue splashes in a VERY different light, I wasn't convinced at all with a few sneak dice, but the 10% double shot from mechanic and killer from assassin, you could reach over 50% doubleshot without much problems, and that's a very different story, shooting 3.8 shuriken per average throw :-) When I consider that the ninja capstone is broken anyway, I urge you to consider something like 12 monk 8 rogue. I know you didn't want this discussion here, but it can still be shuricannon, who says it can't evolve into a splash? :-) Consider what you lose, defense wise as that's your priority: 6 AC from monk and 10% move speed. But you gain improved uncanny dodge, that's 3% stable and a huge 50% boost when trouble arrives. You don't lose any dex, you will still have 7 from APs. You gain a LOT of sneak dice, damage boost, doubleshot. You lose 2 from fort and will but gain 2 in reflex and 5 against traps. Plus you get trap skills, and effective scroll healing, perhaps enough to ditch cocoon even... Granted mechanic and assassin tree would eat 60 AP, with 13 in ninja leaving 7 AP, so probably 1 core shintao and 6 core drow, no big loss, HeM was only about ki gen for 10K, the 4 damage from drow is more than outweighed by sneak dice and dmg boost, not even talking about double shot. The 1 core lost from shintao, oh well. I dare say this build would be much more potent in offense, while retaining pretty much the same defensive ability, uncanny dodge is pretty amazing when push comes to shove.

I can't wait to come home and test on my Shuribarbie (get it? ) if double shot works the way i think, spawning those extra shuriken :-) And if yes I'll feel better for not ending up with a complete copy of the Shuricannon (scarily I even have the bullwark feat now, it all snowballs after one takes CE :-D)

[Firewall]

@Luskacik: Looks like you didn't read this whole thread. We already had the Doubleshot vs. 10k stars discussion and the conclusion is that you cannot beat 10k stars. Why? In short: With the 44 WIS you propose 10k stars gives you a chance to throw up to THREE additional shuriken whereas Doubleshot only gives you a chance to throw ONE. Read the description of 10k stars in DDOWiki thoroughly. With less than 42 WIS you have a chance to throw up to TWO additional shuriken but still with a way higher combined chance than you can get your doubleshot at. Killer from rogue is too unreliable and you will never get the full stack while in a group.

Doubleshot shuriken definately do not proc extra shuriken from other effects. Neither do Shuriken Expertise nor Ninja Training II or 10k stars. All are separate chances that are calculated in addition to the first attack. Sorry to disappoint you there.

Also there are already at least two builds with rogue and/or ranger levels that have a higher burst damage than the shuricannon but they loose in other aspects as i also have already discussed here. This build has no reason to splash any other class so far and it will only get better when the crit range is fixed and when the level cap is raised to 30 (because as a pure monk you will be able to reach BAB 25 then and thus the next step in attack animation speed which raises every 5 BAB).

To your earlier question: Yes Sense Weakness stacks with everything else but only the 30% damage bonus while helpless does and not the extra damage dice while a monster is low on health. That said i still prefer Ancestors Shadowdancer simply because the +1 DEX and 1d6 Sneak Attack work also against bosses. Trash mobs are usually just a nuisance because they are helpless or paralyzed or blind all the time that i don't care about taking them down two seconds faster but bosses are a different thing and you cannot make a red named boss helpless at all and thus Sense Weakness is useless against them - or only useful if you like seeing big numbers on trash.

[Firewall]

I do have one more question, in fact. I'm about to epic, then true, reincarnate, and I happen to have a LR+20. Is there any past life for a shuricannon more beneficial than just keeping my monk? (And which martial epic past life would you go for? Skills, fortification or double strike?)

From the Martial Tree i would take Fortification because when the level is raised to 30 i don't want to imagine what kind of crits the monsters in those high-level quests will do. But just if you stay shuricannon. For a melee build of course Doublestrike is definately worth taking too. Perhaps even better than Fort.

[Firewall]

@Luskacik:

Just to clarify - i have already posted this in another thrower thread already - the chances work like this:

Per attack animation you get

1 attack always
+1 attack if Shuriken Expertise procs
+1 attack if Ninja Spy II procs
+1 attack if Doubleshot procs
+1-3 more attacks with ten thousand stars depending on WIS (WIS below 24 = 0-1 attack, WIS below 42 = 0-2 attacks, WIS above 42 = 0-3 attacks) but while active Doubleshot does not proc for 45 seconds

So up to four attacks without ten thousand stars and up to six attacks with ten thousand stars depending on your WIS. The chances for the additional attacks are calculated separately so they cannot proc each other an additional time.

[Luskacik]

I assure you I have read the thread, don't know how you read my post though... I am very clear that 10K at 44 WIS gives me a 53.3% extra shuriken on average which is more than I can stably get my doubleshot to atm. And I read the 10K description multiple times, do you think I pulled my numbers out of thin air? What I was referring to is this sentence on Wiki: "Doubleshot grants a character a chance to make an additional attack roll with their ranged weapon any time they make a ranged attack."
I understand that as an additional separate attack with an attack roll and everything, whereas the extra shuriken from expertise don't have a roll, combat log shows that clearly. This is why I was hoping double shot would work as 2 complete attacks with chances to proc extra shuriken, in which case double shot could beat 10K even at those 27%, I hope you can at least agree to that. If doubleshot indeed works the same as just an extra shuriken in adittion to being hosed by MS and 10K, then I must say it's utter garbage and I don't understand why devs made it so and waste our and their time with it... But at least from description it could work differently, I couldn't test it right yesterday, I need to get to lvl 28 and get the feat and bracers, you might be right which is sad for doubleshot imo, but I will test it anyway :-)

Sense weaknes vs shadowdancer ancestor comes down to if your dex is odd or even imo, if the ancestor will make it even it's probably better, if not I'd still pick sense weakness, it works on orange named too and bosses are usually not my problem, can be kited easier than tons of mobs, also I spend more time in a quest killing trash than boss (with exceptions as EE outbreak etc.). So with your owns words, thrash is usually helpless, and if you save 2 sec on each trash group on EE that's probably more than you will save on boss with the shadowdancer ancestor, it's just a point of view thing

And for the rogue splash, I guess we have different opinion's on what you lose and gain. Level cap is not yet at 30 and capstone is still bugged so I'm talking about here and now, not future, other things will change till then anyway that's why builds evolve(plus I use tenser's most of the time anyway, +4 dex is just too good). Offense wise you gain tons of sneak dice and doubleshot, and even if doubleshot can't proc additional shuriken, I believe you can hold killer stacks up while you fight, my relentless fury is up non stop even when running with blitzers. In which case I can get to 57% doubleshot which is better even than 10K, it won't be up there all the time ofc but combined with sneak damage and damage boost from assassin, I claim you will have higher AVERAGE DPS, not talking burst dps here, but overall dps.

Defense wise, as I said before:
-you don't lose any dex, same +7 from AP
-you don't lose SR, drow SR beats monk SR anyway

-you lose 6 AC
-you lose 10% movespeed
-you lose 10 positive spellpower and 5% heal amp
-you lose 20 HP from tortoise
-you lose 2 from will and fort save
-you lose DR 10/epic (imo totally negligible now)

-you gain 3% dodge and a 50% stacking dodge boost
-you gain 75% heal scroll effectiveness, possibly even ditching cocoon for a free twist slot
-you gain 2 reflex save and 5 to all saves against traps
-you free up the enlightement twist slot, taking say improved CE for 20 PRR, or 30 positive spellpower

Now you can repeat that it has been discussed before (I even went through the thread again and didn't find these arguments) in which case I will stop wasting both our time as that leads nowhere.
Or you can really think about it and discuss it with me, as I don't think it's as clear, in fact your defense could be even better. The movespeed loss is unarguable but with 20% you still should kite just fine, the other things are quite trivial, and in turn you get 1 or even 2 twist slots, and uncanny dodge active which can really save your life when in a pinch. It's not a clear win either way and can't be summed up to an equation, but I also don't think it's a clear loss for the rogue splash. Question is of course if you think the rogue splash won't have better DPS, then there is no reason to do it. once capstone is fixed and cap raised to 30 that indeed would make it unclear, but right now, would you say you disagree that a 8 lvl rogue splash would have better overall dps? Also, rogue skills are not a bad thing to have :-) Oh I wish doubleshot would proc additional shuriken, then this wouldn't even be a question, but even if it doesn't, I think both alternatives are very close with pros and cons...

[Firewall]

@Luskacik:

I'm not sure but probably i misunderstood you in your earlier post. I didn't want to offend you but the Doubleshot discussion has been in many of the thrower threads and it is quite known how it works and the numbers have been crunched all over so i just wanted to point you to where the info is and that the discussion has been made many times even in this thread (starting with thread #98 i think) and describe how it works thinking you might have misunderstood something about it. I'm not sure why you don't believe that info is true.

Sense Weakness of course comes down to personal preference like most of the Twists, ED and Enhancement layout.

As for the rogue splash:

What you also loose is Vorpal!

I haven't crunched all the numbers you posted but as i said there are already two pretty good thrower builds that make use of exactly the things that you list here.

I will repeat what i already posted in Post #5 and Post #114 as well as some others:

- I don't want to rely on Sneak attack damage (else i would not go drow but halfling in the first place) because when you solo you have to make a mob vulnerable, have enough armor piercing and have to always be in sneak attack range to do full damage. I have been down that road already with an earlier build and didnt like it. Yes you do more damage but it does not feel like a ranged build in my opinion when you have to watch sneak attack range all the time. I want to have maximum benefits at full range.
- I don't want scroll healing because i find it unpractical to say the least in the mid of combat. In emergencies i prefer to drink a silver flame potion and between fights i have enough other options to heal myself.
- I don't like temporary action boosts, unreliable bonuses, activating short term buffs like Tensers, switching gear around in the mid of combat or during quest and have tons of buttons to smash or cooldowns to manage just for a bit more DPS. Other people might feel different and can of course build one of the other throwers. I like that my build only has to watch the timer of 10k stars and Shadow Veil (and maybe abundant step) and that i can use them any time i like because i always have enough Ki. I want all the buffs all the time.
- I want to tank if necessary so every bit of AC and defense is needed. If i loose 6 AC i actually loose more if you take CE and Mountain Stance into account. And on EE as i calculated in the earlier post with the AC breakdown you have to overcome a certain threshhold in AC to even make it worth it the higher the CR of mobs get. And after overcoming that threshhold you get more Miss Chance for every point of AC than in lower levels. So you really need every point of AC if you want to make use of it in EE.
- I find 10% more running speed quite essential for this build and since i am running 100% of the time in DDO and i am kiting mobs almost 100% of the time i think it is worth it. I have been backwards kiting bosses in EE quests without them ever coming close and i'm not sure you can do it with less running speed. Also this is again a convenience issue for me.
- I'm the convenient type of player as you might have already found out and to me a good build is not always measured in numbers but in feeling and fun factor and with the shuricannon i have that pretty much maxed out for me.

All of this is of course subject to personal preference but if you disagree with the above points then maybe one of the other builds is better suited for you. There already are thrower builds on the forums with the things that you propose and i don't want to compete with those since it is a different concept.

The build you suggest is a complete different build with complete different focus and if you want to discuss it please post it so that we can compare the numbers and see if you really can achieve all that you propose in terms of DEX Enhancements and all that other stuff Action Point wise and if you can get all skills high enough for trapskills, UMD and all that stuff. Maybe you can and maybe you can not but that might also be a different perspective from someone with a completionist feat and someone who is on his fourth life with so far quite useless past life feats for a thrower. Also my build is even first-life friendly. I never wanted or claimed that the build is overpowered. I just wanted to post a fun build that happened to be quite viable in EE.

That said i always appreciate new insights into thrower game mechanics and things that benefit thrower builds if you find out anything new.

[Luskacik]

Well the sneak attack damage was mainly like icing on the cake, my main point was getting rid of 10K and obsessing about ki regen (i wish crane worked on ranged, it's kinda unfair to ranged monks that none of the combat ki regen works) and still getting the same attack speed/shuriken proc with the rogue doubleshot enhancements, so even at full range you would have roughly the same dps, depending on killer stacks. That you lose the avg 5 from vorpal that is true. But in sneak mode your dps would be highly increased, especially on bosses it could be nice.

I have to agree scroll healing sucks :-D also use cocoon with silver flame pots if I'm about to die. The movespeed loss is sad and I get that even that 6 AC (8 in stance and CE) hurts if you wanna tank (wait, a ranged tank? :-D), improved uncanny dodge is awesome I stand by that, but I have to agree if you only gain situational sneak damage and otherwise not much, it's probably not worth it. I just wanted to find some usefulness in doubleshot, it really seems like a stupid wasted game mechanic under these circumstances... I didn't say I don't believe it works that way, I only could rely on Wiki description that implies doubleshot means 2 separat attacks, you know how it is, we usually don't have much information about how exactly these things work in ddo, and I think I am a lot worse at searching the forums as I couldn't find anything even close to a definitive answer on this (neither a 12 monk/8 rogue build ). I will test it anyway once I'm 28 again just to be 100% sure but I do believe it works that way, too bad cos that doubleshot rogue splash would be awesome ;-)
And I really don't think it would be a differently focused build, it's very similar, with same stats just different enhancements and 8 rogue levels (tbh I dont use char generators, have it in excel and to post it here it would be unreadable, doesn't matter). I just tried to improve yours, but it seems you can't atm and I will have an exact **** copy just in black armor :-D

[TeacherSyn]

@Luskacik:

Just to clarify - i have already posted this in another thrower thread already - the chances work like this:

Per attack animation you get

1 attack always
+1 attack if Shuriken Expertise procs
+1 attack if Ninja Spy II procs
+1 attack if Doubleshot procs
+1-3 more attacks with ten thousand stars depending on WIS (WIS below 24 = 0-1 attack, WIS below 42 = 0-2 attacks, WIS above 42 = 0-3 attacks) but while active Doubleshot does not proc for 45 seconds

So up to four attacks without ten thousand stars and up to six attacks with ten thousand stars depending on your WIS. The chances for the additional attacks are calculated separately so they cannot proc each other an additional time.

I'll look back in the thread, but getting a higher WIS was the biggest challenge in the first life. Getting to 42 seems incredibly challenging; taking any points from DEX to make this happen seems to decrease the overall stars per attack without 10K Stars, not increase it. I think the best I had before the first TR was 30 or so.

[jakeelala]

@Luskacik:

I'm not sure but probably i misunderstood you in your earlier post. I didn't want to offend you but the Doubleshot discussion has been in many of the thrower threads and it is quite known how it works and the numbers have been crunched all over so i just wanted to point you to where the info is and that the discussion has been made many times even in this thread (starting with thread #98 i think) and describe how it works thinking you might have misunderstood something about it. I'm not sure why you don't believe that info is true.

Sense Weakness of course comes down to personal preference like most of the Twists, ED and Enhancement layout.

As for the rogue splash:

What you also loose is Vorpal!

I haven't crunched all the numbers you posted but as i said there are already two pretty good thrower builds that make use of exactly the things that you list here.

I will repeat what i already posted in Post #5 and Post #114 as well as some others:

- I don't want to rely on Sneak attack damage (else i would not go drow but halfling in the first place) because when you solo you have to make a mob vulnerable, have enough armor piercing and have to always be in sneak attack range to do full damage. I have been down that road already with an earlier build and didnt like it. Yes you do more damage but it does not feel like a ranged build in my opinion when you have to watch sneak attack range all the time. I want to have maximum benefits at full range.
- I don't want scroll healing because i find it unpractical to say the least in the mid of combat. In emergencies i prefer to drink a silver flame potion and between fights i have enough other options to heal myself.
- I don't like temporary action boosts, unreliable bonuses, activating short term buffs like Tensers, switching gear around in the mid of combat or during quest and have tons of buttons to smash or cooldowns to manage just for a bit more DPS. Other people might feel different and can of course build one of the other throwers. I like that my build only has to watch the timer of 10k stars and Shadow Veil (and maybe abundant step) and that i can use them any time i like because i always have enough Ki. I want all the buffs all the time.
- I want to tank if necessary so every bit of AC and defense is needed. If i loose 6 AC i actually loose more if you take CE and Mountain Stance into account. And on EE as i calculated in the earlier post with the AC breakdown you have to overcome a certain threshhold in AC to even make it worth it the higher the CR of mobs get. And after overcoming that threshhold you get more Miss Chance for every point of AC than in lower levels. So you really need every point of AC if you want to make use of it in EE.
- I find 10% more running speed quite essential for this build and since i am running 100% of the time in DDO and i am kiting mobs almost 100% of the time i think it is worth it. I have been backwards kiting bosses in EE quests without them ever coming close and i'm not sure you can do it with less running speed. Also this is again a convenience issue for me.
- I'm the convenient type of player as you might have already found out and to me a good build is not always measured in numbers but in feeling and fun factor and with the shuricannon i have that pretty much maxed out for me.

All of this is of course subject to personal preference but if you disagree with the above points then maybe one of the other builds is better suited for you. There already are thrower builds on the forums with the things that you propose and i don't want to compete with those since it is a different concept.

The build you suggest is a complete different build with complete different focus and if you want to discuss it please post it so that we can compare the numbers and see if you really can achieve all that you propose in terms of DEX Enhancements and all that other stuff Action Point wise and if you can get all skills high enough for trapskills, UMD and all that stuff. Maybe you can and maybe you can not but that might also be a different perspective from someone with a completionist feat and someone who is on his fourth life with so far quite useless past life feats for a thrower. Also my build is even first-life friendly. I never wanted or claimed that the build is overpowered. I just wanted to post a fun build that happened to be quite viable in EE.

That said i always appreciate new insights into thrower game mechanics and things that benefit thrower builds if you find out anything new.

The shuricannon is a great starter build for someone new to Shuriken. It is not EVEN CLOSE to the highest DPS possible in a Shuriken builds.

For that you need to run AA/Adreanline/Slayer in FoTW. The DPS you gain from 20 Monk (really just Vorpal which is 5dmg/Shuriken) is pretty minor compared to how much DPS you can gain from other class splits. Moreover, Shiradi is not very good DPS at all on a ranged character that isn't utilizing it's ability to increase spell damage somehow (like my 15Wiz/3Monk/2FvS Shiradi Missle Spammer with Shurikens for CC using Otto, Pin, and Nerve Venom). Shiradi is all in all about the worst DPS ED for a shuriken build, just as it is with a bow or xbow. However, it has some essential twists (Whirling Wrists, Pin, Otto) which makes it seems like the only choice, but really, it's one of 3 or 4 (SD, LD, FoTW are all very viable, compared to SC).

All of the Shiradi procs added up are right around 16.45 Dmg/Shuriken

Proc Name	Average Damage/Die	# of Damage Dice	Proc Rate	Dmg/Shuriken
Favorable Wind	5.5/Average (d10)	10d10	7%	3.85 Dmg/Shuriken
Fey Vision	+1 Ranged Damage	1d1 (essentially)	100%	1 Dmg/Shuriken
6th Sense	+1 Ranged Damage	1d1 (essentially)	100%	1 Dmg/Shuriken
Fey Power	50.5/Average (d100)	2d100	7%	7.07 Dmg/Shuriken
Rainbow	50.5	1d100	7%	3.535 Dmg/Shuriken
Total				16.455 Dmg/Shuriken

Add to that 5 Dmg/Shuriken from Vorpal (NS Capstone) and you have about 21 Dmg/Shuriken, which is nothing to sneeze at.

However, you can get that with about 6 SA Dice, or accounting for not having SA all the time, say 10, to be generous. Plus maybe killer, or some other good stuff. With AA, you get stances which are awesome. With Ranger you get Sniper shot, more SA dice, FE, and Pos Spell Power.

But really, the thing that eclipses this so much is when you add in Slayer Arrows, and an adrenaline. When that hit's 3 or 4 times during a 10k, my highest crit ever on my FoTW thrower is 12k for 1 SHURIKEN. That very rarely but can proc multiple times. It's usually more like 1.5-3k a shuriken when I hit adrenaline/slayer. If that procs 3 times, it's 4500-9000 damage. You would need to throw 300 shuriken (x21Dmg/Shuriken = ~6000 Avg/Damage) with your build every 30 Seconds (cooldown on Slayer arrows) to be even. Do you throw 10 Shuriken a second? I don't think so. And don't forget, that damage every slayer arrow can spike up to more like 24k with a 19-20 on one of the shuriken (my build uses Overwhelming Crit).

So, in reality, Shiradi is very mediocre DPS. But, it is convenient, low on the button mashing threshold, and relatively consistent damage. It also allows nerve venom which is nice.

It not however anything like top DPS for a shuriken build. That still goes to AA/Slayer/Adrenaline with OC.

I purposefully did not include NS poison in here because the description is bizarre and it's impossible to calculate (for me) the DPS consistently. However, you're so far behind the FoTW numbers that is doesn't matter, unless the poison was like another 30 to 40 Dmg/Shuriken and even then I don't think it would be competitive.

[Firewall]

@jakeelala:

Not sure what point you want to make here. As i already said in the post you quoted this build never claimed to be max DPS with a shuriken nor tried to. There are already other builds that can achieve higher DPS with action boosts, Tensers, Sneak Attack and whatnot. This build has other qualities in my opinion than just looking at the highest damage you can throw out. So i fully agree that if you only look at maximum DPS with a shuriken this build is not for you.

To vorpal: People usually underestimate vorpal since everybody only takes the 100 damage against mobs above 1000 HP into account which averages to about 5 damage per hit but completely neglect that the instakill portion below 1000 HP can equal to anything between 1-999 damage (and the threshhold of 1000 can be extended even higher if you use Life Stealing, Manslayer etc. because they are applied first in the same attack, and even higher than that if you take into account that all the damage of one attack animation is applied simultaneously to a monster so if you throw 3 shuriken in one attack animation and the last one procs vorpal all the damage from the two first attacks can be used to lower the HP below 1000 and still get the instakill with the attack) as i said earlier in this thread. This is a bit hard to quantify but vorpal is definately better than 5 points of average damage.

To poison: Ninja Poison does 1d4 poison damage and 5% poison vulnerability per stack and stacks up to 20 times. So with a full stack it does (20d4*200%)= 40d4 = 100 average Poison damage every 3 seconds and doubles the damage you do with the Quiver of Poison, Venomed Blades and any Poison damage weapon that you (or anyone else) might use. Because of the stacks it is negligible against low HP trash mobs but is very potent against red nameds especially in raids. Since a stack is added on a crit it surely is quantifiable but the worth of it will scale with the HP of the monster (so basically the higher you go in level with EE quests and monster CR the better it will become).

By the way you did not take the Double Rainbow procs into account which are of course really hard to quantify but there are usually a lot of damage and instakill procs (the Mass Frog spell in the actual version kills mobs on EE every time). And it seems people even invest their epic past lives into the small version of it (colors of the queen) and find it quite worth the effort. And there is also Tea with the Queen and the additional DEX you can take for more shuriken attacks.

To me a good build has more aspects than seeing the highest damage numbers and in DDO everything comes at a cost. And it usually depends on playstyle, build concept and personal preference (and sometimes tomes and items available and past lifes gained) what price you are willing to pay for which gains. If you created a max DPS shuriken build please post it on the forums so we can discuss what you gain and loose when using it.

[Firewall]

misclick

[nat_1]

To me a good build has more aspects than seeing the highest damage numbers and in DDO everything comes at a cost. And it usually depends on playstyle, build concept and personal preference (and sometimes tomes and items available and past lifes gained) what price you are willing to pay for which gains.

Blasphemy!

lol. Seems like it sometimes, though.

On that note, I'll just float this idea for anybody who is interested. Switch from Shiradi to Magister and take nullmagic strikes. The animation when it procs is the 3 floating birdies from being stunned. You'll notice it working because the caster mob will stop doing nasty things like neg leveling your party and start doing stupid things like boulder toss or throwing daggers. Try it the next time you're joining an EE where dps is probably well covered. I haven't tried it in EE MoTU but EE Tor was one of the smoothest runs I've been in. A Pyromancer or Spellbinder who can't cast is just a tall punching bag.

Also, on the topic of non-min/max'd choices, Way of the Sun Soul. I can't quit it. I know it's down a few points in multiple categories, and loses 50hp compared to white dragonscale, but free FoM, and if I need a restoration I just switch to fire stance and attack more... I know fire stance is, again, sub-optimal, but with some heal amp the CMW adds up, and the real point is you don't have to pause your attacks to heal. I like anything where the answers to the questions "How do I make something dead quicker" and "How do I heal myself" are both "Attack."

[jakeelala]

@jakeelala:

....

Thank you for the poison explanation. However, you only need 4 levels of monk to get that enhancement, assuming it's as good as your explanation makes it sound.

I'm thinking about posting the build but since I'm continually TR'ing and ETR'ing to try different variants and max out Primal PL's, it's really 4 or 5 different options for a build. Once I find the one I like the best, I'll be sure to post it.

[GrantAnderson]

Well, I have set my feet on the path of the Shuricannon. Level 28 Monk -> Level 20 Monk -> Level 20 Paladin -> Level 1 Drow 30pt Monk.

Possibly I should have skipped Korthos when given the option; didn't consider it at the time. Not sure I can solo the quests on Elite for the bravery bonus, particularly ere my shuriken flinging comes into its own. I did manage it on Hard with an Artificer, but I had rather more self healing, and a pet.

Edit: And then I saw the hireling vendor. Pocket Cleric makes Eliting a bit easier, I must say. I got used to having no hireling on previous Monk.

[Luskacik]

Jakeela: I see you're one of those who think big numbers = big dps :-) first of all I must say I hate how inaccurate ddo wording is, from looking at FotW ranged attack shouldn't count for epic moment counter at all but it obviously does, it also shouldn't recharge adrenaline which I'm not sure it does, that would make FotW not viable for a ranged build. I'll assume it does still. Also, what awesome stances do you get from AA, enlighten me. And don't tell me imbue ARROWS works with shuriken too, the wording accuracy looks ridiculous enough as is :-D And show me how Shadowdancer beats Shiradi at shuriken, I dare you, cos that is utter BS.

So, what you didn't add to your funny dps calculation is the 6 dex you lose in FotW, which is -3 dmg right there and -12% extra shuriken per throw, which amounts to, say, roughly 16 per throw, so thats 19 dmg right there to that 21 you saw. That would make your own calculation 5 shuriken per second, to which I say, when throwing, yes, on average, nope.
But I'm not done, nightshade poison, 7% per shuriken so say 20% per throw, but once it works it works for a good few throws, from experience i wildly guess (same precision as your slayer adrenaline crit number :-P) it works 40-50% of the time and makes you deal 110% damage, well that could easily be 60 dmg per throw. And as Firewall said double rainbow is not to be neglected, instakills and lots of dmg procs which is really impossible to quantify but I'll go and guess 300 per proc so another 21 dmg per throw. So much for FotW toooootally eclipsing shiradi, yeah it's great for show off Sobrien videos and with the slayer arrow it's always a nice crit number, but will it make you clear (let alone solo) EE quests faster? I strongly doubt it. So I guess it depends on what dps means to you, if you care about 20 sec big bursts, sure, situationally, mainly against bosses, it is better. If you want constant overall dps, well that is not as simple as checking out nice 12K crits ;-) And that you actually took 4 feats and obviously boosted the dumpstat STR only to get overwhelm crit, that kinda says it all... Wonder what you dropped, probably improved precise shot lol.

LD is a different animal, in blitz you will undoubtedly have better dps, +350% every shuriken cant be beaten. Only drawback (apart from losing it when changing instances and dying) is you will spend over 5 min every quest charging it via trip and sunder, and I bet that gets old :-)

I wonder about that vorpal btw, as Firewall said it's not clear 5 dmg because it does isntakill sometimes. How much it does really depends on what you run and how much HP the mobs have that you fight. But again a wild guess at 5000 HP average, the vorpal would actually have a 20% chance of doing 500 average (the mob won't alway shave full 1000) damage instead of 100, so (100*0.8 + 500*0.2) 0.05 = 9 dmg on average, not 5 :-)