Pale Trapper for new players (Human 18/2 Wizard/Rogue)

[Merfyn]

But it's a build "for new players"; that's right in the title. New players should not immediately be expecting to excel solo in the hardest difficulty.

The problem might not be the build, but the expectations.

Quite true; it shouldn't be considered an "easy button" even if it happened to have wide success.

Still, just like repeater builds, it probably needs an update now that the tree has been revamped.

[Rightous]

not a reply but a question "why isnt a new thread button right there at the top or somewhere on the forum what kind of idjuts make a forum and hide the new thread button

[C-Dog]

not a reply but a question "why isnt a new thread button right there at the top or somewhere on the forum what kind of idjuts make a forum and hide the new thread button

Welcome!

There is, both above the title "Forum:..." at the top, and again at the very bottom. BUT, You don't get to start a new thread until you've been around a while - 30 days, iirc. Cuts down on spambot posting.

(Now apologize to the nice Mr. forum-master )

[jasii]

Sorry if this qualifies as a necro, but...

I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?

[SirValentine]

Sorry if this qualifies as a necro, but...

Even if it does, it's appropriate!

I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?

Pro: A lever-puller! Well worth spending 1 AP to get.
Cons: Pets in DDO tend to be buggy and squishy and useless for actual tough combat. It's usually a waste to spend more than the minimum trying to buff it up.

[unbongwah]

I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?

Pets (and summoning in general) are bad in DDO on any difficulty above Hard - and even there it's marginal. It gets worse if you multiclass, because MCing delays your summoning spell progression and reduces your pet's level vs pure caster.

If you want to mess with pets/summons, only do it on a pure caster build and take the Augment Summons feat ASAP. Then when you're sick of how underpowered they are, swap Augment Summons for a more useful caster feat and spend your APs elsewhere like the rest of us.

[C-Dog]

Pets (and summoning in general) are bad in DDO on any difficulty above Hard - and even there it's marginal...

Yeah, pets in combat have 1 purpose - to distract the enemy for a shot or three. If they're beating on your pet, they aren't beating on you - but don't expect much more than just that. AP's spent trying to turn those 1-3 shots into more are AP you could spend on noticeably upping your own DPS/durability, which is something the pet really doesn't add (beyond the short-lived "distraction" factor).

Besides that, there are 3 things that a pet does do...

1) It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

2) 2nd warm body for levers/pressure plates/etc.

3) If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.

For some players, that can be worth a couple AP - but no more than that.

[SirValentine]

It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

The flip side of that being that it also alerts enemies long before they would otherwise be aware of you. :-)

If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.

Yes, also a good point, beyond just the lever-pulling.

[shawnvw]

Yeah, pets in combat have 1 purpose - to distract the enemy for a shot or three. If they're beating on your pet, they aren't beating on you - but don't expect much more than just that. AP's spent trying to turn those 1-3 shots into more are AP you could spend on noticeably upping your own DPS/durability, which is something the pet really doesn't add (beyond the short-lived "distraction" factor).

Besides that, there are 3 things that a pet does do...

1) It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

2) 2nd warm body for levers/pressure plates/etc.

3) If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.

For some players, that can be worth a couple AP - but no more than that.

In my experience, they're not all the same.

• Summons (from the Monster Summoning spells) are always lower-level than the caster, so they're good mainly for distraction. The one from Epic Destinies are more durable.
• Hirelings can be chosen to match your level, can carry your soul stone, follow orders, and can hold their own in a fight. Plus, you know, healing and trapping.
• Pets vary, I think. I've always found the Skeletal Knight (for whom this conversation started) to be tough and useful in a fight. (I always buy the upgrades, and I usually get Augment Summoning because I love being surrounded by summons, hirelings, and pets.)

Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?

[C-Dog]

In my experience, they're not all the same...

Yes, they are, in exactly the way you distinguish them. Pets are "pets", which is what we're talking about. The other two have some things in common, but are what they are.

Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?

100%.

And, fwiw, if one player who started the game in '11 posted it, and a second player who started in '09 supported it, so should you be, too.

(Edit - for that matter, you started in '06 - How are you NOT sure??? )

[SirValentine]

• Pets vary, I think. I've always found the Skeletal Knight (for whom this conversation started) to be tough and useful in a fight. (I always buy the upgrades, and I usually get Augment Summoning because I love being surrounded by summons, hirelings, and pets.)

Let me re-state: like many things in DDO, it depends on the difficulty. In tough content, pets are basically useless in combat; they will do negligible DPS, and will die easily. In easier content, they might look uber, simply because it's easier content.

My fully fully spell/gear/DruidPLx3/classEnhancement/HarperEnhancement/AugSummon/EpicAugSummoned/ScionOfElysium/shipBuff/CryOfBattle-buffed pet with like 2.5K HP would still get 3-shot in R10s, or 1-shot because it's too dumb to stay out of Veng circles. But it'd probably kick behind in Hard! Without all that stuff buffing it, it's probably be great on Normal.

Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?

Quite sure.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

"Why is a Pale Trapper better than other trappers ?"
"Because he can't be killed upon dismantling failure. He is already dead."

[shawnvw]

(Edit - for that matter, you started in '06 - How are you NOT sure??? )

Well, the only pet I play is the Skeletal Knight (I don't know for how long, but it couldn't have been since '06, could it? ). I thought I had tried grabbing my stone in the past and it didn't work. Guess I must have remembered it wrong.

[ValariusK]

I can't help but think that with the intersection of:
An EK tree that is worthy
Plowshares to swords feat
The revamp of the THF line making it much more EK friendly
There might be a good Wizard 18/ Rogue 2 build in there that does mostly staff fighting.

[Ignorus]

Hello, new player here - is this still up to date? I'm currently at level 5, but noticed that the "PM0" thingies don't actually give me four different forms, just one and a second further up the tree. Should I directly choose Lich (or vampire) in that case, which seem to be the most useful forms for me (cause +INT), or do I get the forms i didn't choose later automatically?
Also, how important is that +1DC to Necromantic spells at the very top? It seems very lackluster for a tier 5 enhancement. I'd rather get the Greater Death Shroud thing, the passive and active look way better than a simple +1DC.

[unbongwah]

Hello, new player here - is this still up to date?

The OP was last updated 4 1/2 years ago so: no it's not. That said, the gist of the build remains the same. You pair Necromancy with an Archmage school like Enchantment or Evocation. The base stats and feats remain largely the same. The Enhancements and Epic Destiny are what need updating.

The Pale Master tree was revamped about a year ago. Originally you had to upgrade undead forms sequentially (zombie -> vampire -> wraith -> lich); now you pick your preferred form at wizard 3 and add Augmentations to improve it. Some Augmentations improve spellcasting (e.g., extra Spellpower, +2 Enchantment or Necromancy DCs), some are melee-focused like Inflict Weariness, while others boost survivability (Incorporealty).

BTW if you're interested in a melee PM / Eldritch Knight build (and have the Harper tree), see my Bladesingers thread.