Pale Trapper for new players (Human 18/2 Wizard/Rogue)

[EllisDee37]

1:Why do you recommend Wizard20 instead of Rogue1/Wizard8/Rogue+1/Wizard+X for a Sun Elf?
Because you have to LR+1 to remove the first cleric level, which makes the build quite expensive. If you're going to spend that much on a DC wizard, it only makes sense to min/max that wizard's DCs. Splashing 2 rogue is definitely not min/maxing your DCs.

2: For a Pale Trapper, how important are summon spells and the Skeletal Knight?
Not important.

3: Does Augment Summoning affect the Skeletal Knight? When is this feat generally worth it for a pure Wizard or Pale Trapper?
It does indeed affect the Skeletal Knight. It's only worth it on a human, first off, because they have an extra feat to burn. The pet is actually halfway decent up through around level 12 elites, plus in all cannith challenges.

4: What DC and spell penetration do I need to be at the levels of competitive and optimal in Epic Elites at 21 and 28?
For epic elites at level 21 you want at least high 50s DC, preferably 60; by 28 you'll want 66 or better. A pale trapper is simply not going to be able to reach that. For spell penetration, you'll want mid-50s (54 is a solid number to reach) for the low level epic elites. High level epic elites require no spell penetration at all, as far as I'm aware. (Low level epics are crawling with drow.)

5: For a negative energy-heavy build, why not put more points into Heal?
Skill points are tight; I put as many into heal as I could. Spellcraft is more important, IMO, but I could be swayed toward heal instead.

6: Reincarnation-wise: I was considering maxing out my Human Sorcerer then using reincarnation (which flavor) to return me to 20 (preferably) as a Sun Elf Wizard. Which is the optimal reincarnation path for someone focused on high-end content? (It also helps I bought the Shadowfell Conspiracy deluxe edition.) If I do reincarnate into an iconic, must I still use a Lesser Heart of Wood to remove the first preassigned level?

Yes, a sun elf must spend a heart to remove the first cleric level. That means your sun elf life should be your very last life. If you're focused on high-end content as a DC caster, the first thing you should focus on is getting completionist. After you get completionist you can consider tacking on additional wizard/fvs lives for spell pen, sorc/cleric lives for DCs, etc...

Completionist isn't required, of course, but no single point of DC is specifically required. It's just that when all is said and done, getting the absolute maximum possible DC the game allows ends up with a functional DC caster that the endgame content is built around. Not having completionist puts you 1 DC below that if and only if you already have every other possible DC boost in the game.

[SirValentine]

I was considering maxing out my Human Sorcerer then using reincarnation (which flavor) to return me to 20 (preferably) as a Sun Elf Wizard.

That can't exactly be done, not in one step.

You could:

(Optional, if already 28: Epic Reincarnate back to level 20)
Heroic True Reincarnate out of Human Sorc
Start over as a brand-new character, Sun Elf Cleric 1 / Wiz 14
Lesser Reincarnate +1 to Sun Elf Wizard 15
Level up from 15

[Endarire]

I'm a Human Sorcerer16. Is it better for me to reach L28, or L20? If I reincarnate into an Iconic Sun Elf, do I start at L15?

If I do reincarnate at L28, what benefit do I get? If I True Reincarnate at L20, what benefit do I get?

[SirValentine]

I'm a Human Sorcerer16. Is it better for me to reach L28, or L20?

There's no "better", it depends on your goals and how much time(/money) you want to put into it.

If I reincarnate into an Iconic Sun Elf, do I start at L15?

Yes.

If I do reincarnate at L28, what benefit do I get? If I True Reincarnate at L20, what benefit do I get?

True Reincarnation, at level 20 (or any higher level) for normal races (only at 28 for Iconic races), gives you a Heroic Past Life Feat, and lets you create a new starting character (level 1 for normal races, level 15 for Iconic).

Epic Reincarnation takes you from leve 28 down to level 20, and gives you an Epic Past Life feat.

They are two totally different processes. It is a bit confusing that "Reincarnate" means so mean disparate things.

[Endarire]

What are the advantages to Wizard20 vs Rogue2/Wizard18? Rogue2 seems to capitalize on Evasion, Search, and Disable Device with splashes in more skills.

Also, what are the main advantages of each recommended Epic Destiny? Draconic seems best for DPS, Magister seems best for DCs, and Shiradi seems to try to paralyze foes. How does this recommendation of Epic Destiny change between Sorcerer and Wizard?

How effective is Wizard/Sorcerer blasting at level 21+?

If I go into level 21 content (on Normal or Hard) without farming/crafting gear first (meaning I just walk in, alone or in a group, with just 'pug' gear), how easily can I get spiffy ML20+ Wizard/Sorcerer gear at that point? I basically want to get to that point and catch up in gear.

What should I know about crafting items come level 21? I have 0 crafting experience in DDO.

What abilities exist for Wizards and Sorcerers to reduce the cooldown time of their spells and spell-like abilities?

[unbongwah]

What are the advantages to Wizard20 vs Rogue2/Wizard18?

+2 Spell Pen, +1 metamagic feat, more SPs, more spell slots, and capstone. Basically pure wiz is a better caster, Pale Trapper is more versatile and Evasion can be a lifesaver.

Also, what are the main advantages of each recommended Epic Destiny? Draconic seems best for DPS, Magister seems best for DCs, and Shiradi seems to try to paralyze foes.

Shiradi has two things going for it: all the extra free DPS from the various random procs; as well as free paralyzing.

[cru121]

Coming to wizard after 3 sorcerer evoker lives. Questions:

1) few posters suggested front-loading maximize, empower, and use missiles. any opinion on that?

2) any opinion on active sorc PL feat for the extra 10 hits of elemental SLA? metamagickable?

3) undead form: at what level start using it? can any hires still hjeal me while undead? are inflict serious wounds pots available somewhere?

4) Inflict wands/scrolls, are they sold? Not worth the UMD?

5) Gear (beyond tower shield). The ML15, +8 Int goggles from Shadowfell sound like must have. Where do I slot my nullification? Flexible lore looks like something nice to craft. Any challenges twink items? Don't have any mabar gear.

6) Blasting. When necro is not viable. Any recommended element to focus on? Or use universal potency?

[EllisDee37]

few posters suggested front-loading maximize, empower, and use missiles. any opinion on that?
I greatly prefer using the web sla with free heighten than magic missle with free maximize/empower.

any opinion on active sorc PL feat for the extra 10 hits of elemental SLA? metamagickable?
My first impression is no, but I can't say from experience.

undead form: at what level start using it? can any hires still hjeal me while undead? are inflict serious wounds pots available somewhere?
I start using it at wizard level 3. Zombie form is quite nice, and does NOT give any movement penalty. No hires can heal you in undead form. Inflict pots are available from collectable turn-in. Specifically funerary tokens, which are common and plentiful.

4) Inflict wands/scrolls, are they sold? Not worth the UMD?
You can buy wands in house phiarlan, but they seemed kind of crappy to me when I used them on my first life. However, that's a valid use for umd, so that's another reason to justify umd if you want it for resurrection scrolls and casting greater restoration/heal on other party members.

5) Gear (beyond tower shield). The ML15, +8 Int goggles from Shadowfell sound like must have. Where do I slot my nullification? Flexible lore looks like something nice to craft. Any challenges twink items? Don't have any mabar gear.
For late heroic/early epic levels I'm a big fan of the darkstorm helm. At endgame, one of the raid-crafted weapons with 150 nullification is hard to beat.

6) Blasting. When necro is not viable. Any recommended element to focus on? Or use universal potency?
Acid + cold is a pretty strong combo, but lightning is also good, particularly for dots. That's part of the reason I like darkstorm helm so much. For acid, rock boots can't be beat while leveling. Frozen tunic is similarly strong for cold. For a final endgame gearset, I would check out Andoris' pale master thread.

The challenge gear (rock boots, frozen tunic, bracers of wind) is literally the best spell power available in the game while leveling. Spell power 90 at ML15 even without masterful; ML13 with masterful brings it into ludicrously good territory.

[Endarire]

For levels 21-28 (but especially for 21ish), what school should I emphasize as a Sorcerer? I like blasting (and am primarily an Air Savant with a minor as a Fire Savant for wall of fire), but I've heard Enchantment is the school to max the DC for in Epic.

I probably also need lots of Epic gear to make my DCs high enough for things to be worthwhile for Epic Elite instances, and perhaps also for Epic Normal/Epic Hard.

[EllisDee37]

5) Gear (beyond tower shield). The ML15, +8 Int goggles from Shadowfell sound like must have. Where do I slot my nullification? Flexible lore looks like something nice to craft. Any challenges twink items? Don't have any mabar gear.
For late heroic/early epic levels I'm a big fan of the darkstorm helm. At endgame, one of the raid-crafted weapons with 150 nullification is hard to beat.

I forgot to mention Staff of the Necromancer, which is an excellent early epic nullification + DC + spell penetration quarterstaff.

For levels 21-28 (but especially for 21ish), what school should I emphasize as a Sorcerer? I like blasting (and am primarily an Air Savant with a minor as a Fire Savant for wall of fire), but I've heard Enchantment is the school to max the DC for in Epic.

I probably also need lots of Epic gear to make my DCs high enough for things to be worthwhile for Epic Elite instances, and perhaps also for Epic Normal/Epic Hard.

I've never played a sorcerer. General questions about arcane casting should probably go in a different thread. This is a build thread, devoted to a specific build.

[pappo]

Only level 2 so I have no results to report yet. One rogue past life and starting with 18 int and a +5 int tome to keep all the trapping skills as high as possible. By the planner, I can keep concentration, spellcraft, spot, search and disable within a point or two of max ranks; only open lock is low. I'm just a casual player in a static group, so I'm not planning for any 'end game'. Took rogue then 12 wizard before the second level of rogue at 14 so I can get vampire form as soon as possible. Might move a few points around but I want at least lich form, strong skeleton and Tensor's.

I was wondering how your EK version worked out ? It looks like a fun build.
What weapons did you fight with ?
I am also in a static group, and my next life I have to be the Wizard and your build looks like a nice change from a normal Pale Trapper. I would appreciate any feedback you can provide.

[cru121]

My variant Pale Trapper just hit level 5. Well, considering that I picked other feats early, it's somewhat different, more like living evoker. Drow.

Level1: Insightful Reflexes. I let the lvl1 barb hire do the killing in Korthos village.

Level2: Maximize. Wearing Robe of Duality for +2 Caster Levels. Invested my first AP into invisibility SLA. Gained half level in ~5 runs of Stealthy Repo. Gained second half in Korthos wilderness, with Skeletal pet and the barb hire. Meh DPS, I ended up throwing Shadow Star.

Level3: PL:Arcane Prodigy (sorcerer). I now have _some_ personal DPS:
* Archmage SLA: I tried evocation for magic missiles. It was meh. I respecced to Chill Touch. Kills most mobs with free Maximize.
* Necro SLA: I tried them and discarded them
* Arcane Prodigy past life clickie (10 times per rest cast ray of random element): okayish damage with Maximize. Travels slowly, medium range, target can sidestep it.
* Spells: Sonic Blast (cooldown feels glacial after sorcerer lives), Shocking Grasp
Did most of the Harbor lvl twos with lvl3 barb hire. Was using some Aid clickies to keep hire and skelly alive. Shoulda bought Repair wand. Sonic Blast the goto spell in pugs. And everywhere.

Level4: Zombie form? I am not seeing it. -2 Int. Lose the ability to drink CSW. Gain the ability to waste 15 spell points for weak heal over time. I guess the immunities are nice. I'll try again with more nullification gear. Spells: using Scorching Ray in addition to the earlier spells.
Wasted some time/exp in a pug with a lvl 8. Bah. Ran some Tangleroot/3BC wilds as a zombie. Respecced, most of my AP is in the Skelly tree.

Level5. Got me some gear from my crafter. So far, so good.

[EllisDee37]

I never used a dps hire on my wizard lives. Levels 1-3 I killed most everything with un-meta'd niac's cold ray, plus burning hands and/or acid spray for skeletons. Once I hit level 4 I add scorching ray to pair with niac's and go to town with those until I can replace niac's with frost lance. Once I get firewall it's all webby firewalls, all the time. Adding acid rain on top of it for extra killing goodness.

Zombie form is fantastic if you're using the skeleton pet, since you'll want to use the weak aura to heal the pet anyway. The DR is quite effective, and getting heavy fort at level 4 certainly doesn't suck.

[scott75209]

call me crazy/blind but i'm not seeing Improved Empower in the tree. Does it have another name?

Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment or Past Life: Arcane Initiate
Enhancement: AM2: Improved Empower I
Enhancement: AM2: Improved Empower II
Enhancement: AM2: Improved Empower III

[EllisDee37]

call me crazy/blind but i'm not seeing Improved Empower in the tree. Does it have another name?

The archmage tree has two different Efficient Metamagic multi-selectors in tier 2.

[imblo99]

Ok I am confused where is the most up to version of this build ever post I find sends me to a updated version and then back to this one. Is there a Final?

Ok I am looking at only the first 20 levels of this build as its it just for crafting support (soul stones) and past life. I like that this was kept simple as far as tombs. Since I only want 20 levels of play and making my green steel do my 20 shrouds get my TR wood. Would this build Do what I need. I have never been a good at playing a Wiz never liked Pale master but since i don't want to embarrass myself sole is very important.

Also what hirelings should I use for best support while in solo play I have 32 point vet build and would like to make 1 change move my 2nd level rogue to 2nd level to get my evasion as soon as I step out the door, would that break the build?

Should I make any other changes to further enhance my matt farming of trap part and soul stones

[EllisDee37]

Ok I am confused where is the most up to version of this build ever post I find sends me to a updated version and then back to this one. Is there a Final?

This is the updated version of the older build.

Ok I am looking at only the first 20 levels of this build as its it just for crafting support (soul stones) and past life. I like that this was kept simple as far as tombs. Since I only want 20 levels of play and making my green steel do my 20 shrouds get my TR wood. Would this build Do what I need. I have never been a good at playing a Wiz never liked Pale master but since i don't want to embarrass myself sole is very important.

Yep, it solos great and is an excellent farmer for shroud, tokens of the twelve and soul gems.

Also what hirelings should I use for best support while in solo play I have 32 point vet build and would like to make 1 change move my 2nd level rogue to 2nd level to get my evasion as soon as I step out the door, would that break the build?

I never use hirelings on my casters. The exception to that is I carry 2-3 different hires with divine vitality, and if I end up mana-less in a long quest I ddoor back to the start and summon all 3 hires, one after the other, using all their divine vitality charges then immediately dismissing them. Good for 1000+ mana, and could theoretically be done every 5 minutes.

I wouldn't move the rogue level up to 2 for a couple reasons. First is that it delays your 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells, all of which hurts. More importantly, though, is that your skills will suffer because the second rogue level lets you "catch up" on skills we let slack off during the low levels. Notice in the build as written that disable device and search are raised 5 ranks each with the second rogue level. You can't do that if you take rogue at level 2.

The reason we let search and disable slack off is because they're both int skills, and being a max int build those are the ones we can most afford to let slide for a bit.

[imblo99]

This is the updated version of the older build.

Yep, it solos great and is an excellent farmer for shroud, tokens of the twelve and soul gems.

I never use hirelings on my casters. The exception to that is I carry 2-3 different hires with divine vitality, and if I end up mana-less in a long quest I ddoor back to the start and summon all 3 hires, one after the other, using all their divine vitality charges then immediately dismissing them. Good for 1000+ mana, and could theoretically be done every 5 minutes.

I wouldn't move the rogue level up to 2 for a couple reasons. First is that it delays your 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells, all of which hurts. More importantly, though, is that your skills will suffer because the second rogue level lets you "catch up" on skills we let slack off during the low levels. Notice in the build as written that disable device and search are raised 5 ranks each with the second rogue level. You can't do that if you take rogue at level 2.

The reason we let search and disable slack off is because they're both int skills, and being a max int build those are the ones we can most afford to let slide for a bit.

Ok thanks sounds good to me then I will follow this for the most part as is.

Also I Have a +1 con tomb in the bank if i was to use that at 3rd level I could got with 15 con and gain 2 point to spend on another stat like Wisdom and end up with

14 str
8 dex
16 con
18 int
10 wis
8chr
would that help the build at all

One last question just for the sake of not being a dead copy could u use Half elf with out any ill side effects that would break the build?

[EllisDee37]

Ok thanks sounds good to me then I will follow this for the most part as is.

Also I Have a +1 con tomb in the bank if i was to use that at 3rd level I could got with 15 con and gain 2 point to spend on another stat like Wisdom and end up with

14 str
8 dex
16 con
18 int
10 wis
8chr
would that help the build at all

One last question just for the sake of not being a dead copy could u use Half elf with out any ill side effects that would break the build?

Any race will work, but you'll be tight on skill points. Humans, drow and morninglord get +1 skill point per level compared to the other races. (Drow and morninglord by virtue of starting with 20 int.) The human bonus feat is largely thrown away on a lackluster toughness feat, so it's fine to lose that.

Wisdom doesn't do much of anything for a pale master mainly because pale masters in form are flat-out immune to almost anything that has a will save. The build was originally written as 18 int /18 con with all other stats 8, if that's any indication of the relative importance of the other stats. I decided to move 6 points over to strength only because it's super annoying to keep getting burdened (lose evasion) and being unable to pull so many levers. It feels like eberron is littered with 17 strength levers.

Really, 10 strength is sufficient, though. If you want to move 3 strength over to 1 con (for 17) and use your tome to even it out that'd be fine. 11 strength in this context is a tangible improvement over 10 strength by virtue of the increased carrying capacity.

[imblo99]

Any race will work, but you'll be tight on skill points. Humans, drow and morninglord get +1 skill point per level compared to the other races. (Drow and morninglord by virtue of starting with 20 int.) The human bonus feat is largely thrown away on a lackluster toughness feat, so it's fine to lose that.

Wisdom doesn't do much of anything for a pale master mainly because pale masters in form are flat-out immune to almost anything that has a will save. The build was originally written as 18 int /18 con with all other stats 8, if that's any indication of the relative importance of the other stats. I decided to move 6 points over to strength only because it's super annoying to keep getting burdened (lose evasion) and being unable to pull so many levers. It feels like eberron is littered with 17 strength levers.

Really, 10 strength is sufficient, though. If you want to move 3 strength over to 1 con (for 17) and use your tome to even it out that'd be fine. 11 strength in this context is a tangible improvement over 10 strength by virtue of the increased carrying capacity.

So now i a bit confused again

so them strength would be the best place to move the extra point

15 str
8 dex
16 con +1 tomb at 3
18 int
8wis
8chr

or

14 str
8 dex
17 con +1 tomb at 3
18 int
8 wis
8chr

I guess I am asking the best way to use the +1 con tomb at level 3

I know this don't call for tombs but as I get them I will ad what I can

I do have another +3 int I could use at 11 as well but it was planned for my arti but he is made in more of a craft toon

I am a bit a clutz on a wiz so maybe I should just put the extra on +1 con and follow the build and be done with this Human rogue 1st level just like the build calls and add the plus 1 can at 3 and call it good keep it simple and that puts it that much closer to the 18 int 18 con it was to be in the first place then if i like it add the +1 con upgrade at 7 then it waould end up 18/18 like it was meant to be..I will know if I like the build by 7 level I am sure

also how important is umd to this build is like most try to get as much as possible or is the set number we are shooting for in umd Opps it looks like there is no UMD in the build so its not needed at all that seems odd but ok it not needed then