U19 Fighter Build: Cetus

[Cetus]

Looks very solid, couple of questions:

So to get all the feats required you only need to take 2 +5 tomes, Wisdom and Dex? Might have to open my piggy bank a bit and get these 2 tomes.

How does this compare to pure Horc Barbarian or Horc 18barb/2 fighter splash with the new enhancement pass in terms of dps? I started playing shortly again so not sure how well it stacks up against them, but I know you know your **** so I might as well ask here. Seems that having damage and haste boost active will somewhat compensate when all cleaves and momentum swing are on cool down for the lost of Horc THF bonuses.

I was thinking of shadow veil so i still can use bow str, instead of eSoS just use a EatGA(that Dance of flowers extra 1.5 while centered seems pretty good) and instead of primal scream using momentum swings, for ED using legendary dreadnought, what is your opinion on this? If doing that, should I might as well stay Barb?

Well, if you're looking to build a barbarian, you have a few decent choices.

Personally, I'd probably do an 18 Barbarian/1Fighter/1Cleric - that way you get tier 3 haste boost and divine might from cleric. You'd have an outstanding strength if you invest into your charisma. Thats a build I tinkered around with for a bit, but this fighter version still soars ahead in my opinion.

In terms of DPS, its hard to say. They're both very powerful damage dealing characters. I'd be lying if I gave you a clear cut answer because dealing damage became a much more dynamic process.

But, Damage wise, the build I outlined receives +2 Threat expansion from kensei, a constant +1 crit multiplier from earth stance on 19/20's, at least 3 Tiers of sneak attack damage dice, +6 to damage from kensei tree, and a spammable fist of iron which adds an additional +1 multiplier on ANY crit, +1 threat expansion, and +3 W damage.

Also, the ninja poison is surprisingly awesome. That ticks for 100+ (saw 140) every 3 seconds, effectively adding about 40 DPS.

Balance that against, say frenzy, which gives 3 Multiplier on 19/20, frenzy + death frenzy damage, and their strength bonus to damage + PA line.

I'm assuming they both have divine might, if I use the 18/1/1 barb build I outlined.

For all intents and purposes, I think its safe to say that their damage is comparable - its the other "stuff" that makes this build destroy the barb version - its the killer saves, which allows me to evade otherwise devastating EE otilukes from Ice elementals, which allow me to neglect the threat of a 73 DC flesh to stone from the end boss in EE what goes up.

Furthermore, this build has 25% incorporeal bonus + 17% dodge (28% while blitzed) + 333 per heal scroll due to healing amp access.

Also, remember that horc doesn't provide the extra feat that human does, nor does it provide stacking damage boost and access to action surge stats like human does. The strength discrepancy (also as a result of 2 lower charisma from horc if going with divine might) all needs to be weighed and calibrated to end up at an even number.

Ranged:

The barbarian cannot take advantage of manyshot without some serious feat sacrifice. You'd need to spend 6 feats to become proficient with bow damage = and a horc barbarian with 1 fighter level has 11 total feats. The remaining 5 are what? You need cleave, great cleave, overwhelming crit, power attack, IC: slashing. If you do that, then you lose stunning blow - a major tactic for which you should have plenty DC for if you combine barbarian strength with divine might. I wouldn't sacrifice stunning blow for ranged.

the 6 ranged feats: WF: ranged, bow strength, Rapid shot, PBS, manyshot, IC: Ranged.

I suppose you can lose IC: Ranged, and work stunning blow in - but meh, that depends on preference, I personally value stunning blow too much to deal with threatening enemies such as casters and assassins and such.

Twists:

So, I've settled on Dance of flowers (cannot pass this up), Bane of undeath (need this for divine mights), and sense weakness (not even for the helpless damage, but because all the extra back end damage is nice against bosses), and play in LD 90% of the time.

I ended up dumping primal scream, and just calibrated my stats to be even with a rage spell - that way I only lose 2 effective str/con.

Hope that helps, the 18/1/1 is an effective build, but it'll get pwned a lot because of inadequate saves in EE stuff.

Weapon:

With this build, ESOS returns to being king DPS wise. Spamming fists of iron every 3 seconds gives a 12-20 crit range, with an extra multiplier on all 12-20 crits.

Also, it frees up my trinket to wear litany, which throws my cha even

So, with fists of iron 19/20's are x3 + 1 overwhelming + 1 devastating + 1 earth stance + 1 fists = x7 multiplier.

A frenzied barb is 1 ahead with a x8

[cdr]

It's tough deciding between Carpone's build and yours. If clerics could use turns for Divine Might instead of SP I'd probably do Carpone's with 2 cleric. Your build is closer to what my fighter was already though. I planned it out with -2 fighter +2 paladin, and that's probably what I'll go with. I don't like Stunning Blow - just personal preference - and I like Cocoon, so -Stunning Blow/Tactician/Bane of Undeath +Empower Heal/Cocoon.

[Cetus]

It's tough deciding between Carpone's build and yours. If clerics could use turns for Divine Might instead of SP I'd probably do Carpone's with 2 cleric. Your build is closer to what my fighter was already though. I planned it out with -2 fighter +2 paladin, and that's probably what I'll go with. I don't like Stunning Blow - just personal preference - and I like Cocoon, so -Stunning Blow/Tactician/Bane of Undeath +Empower Heal/Cocoon.

Well, I have two MAJOR problem with carpones build:

The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

The other part are the druid levels, I don't like them, the doublestrike boost doesn't do it for me over 2 pally - especially when I have a backup damage boost from dreadnaught. I never run out of all my boosts - closest I come is in EE What goes up. I'd never even get to the doublestrike boost.

I hope this feedback is well received, no disrespect meant to that build split at all, these are just my reasons for not liking it.

[VorpalKnight]

With this build, ESOS returns to being king DPS wise. Spamming fists of iron every 3 seconds gives a 12-20 crit range, with an extra multiplier on all 12-20 crits.

Also, it frees up my trinket to wear litany, which throws my cha even

So, with fists of iron 19/20's are x3 + 1 overwhelming + 1 devastating + 1 earth stance + 1 fists = x7 multiplier.

A frenzied barb is 1 ahead with a x8

For what its worth it also losses 20% glancing blow damage compared to 18 barb(Mad Munitions and angry arms each add 5% and Focus Wide adds 10% on vorpal for 12 secs).

I Forgot that it doesn't have Supreme cleave to spam, so momentum swings is not gonna be up as much as pure barb, that does make human or half elf a no brainier, for some reason I keep assuming that everyone has access to those barb features.

I am not a Completionist though, and also only have EAGA which is why not 100% sure if this build is better for me, wouldn't going Half be better for the extra SA dice considering that I have a free feat spot since I don't have to take completionist?

The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

That's one of the things that I like about your build and was curious about the other build that was linked, If i am gonna have bad saves might as well not bother with tr'ing and stick to barb, I want it to be as different as possible.

Also my naga just got the double clicking problem a few months ago, second one they send me, might wanna see if there's a logitech alternative as i hear they have better quality, just figured i toss that out there since you did advertise it, because I like the mouse but it seems that quite a lot of them get faulty after a year or so(first one had double clicking probs after 6 months).

[cdr]

Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.

[VorpalKnight]

Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.

I came back to DDO to be harrased by the difficult choice of carpones or cestus build and classes with enough abilities to fill more than 1 hotbars... should have stuck with neverwinter with their one cookie cutter build per class and their q,e,r,tab,shift options for abilities

[Cetus]

For what its worth it also losses 20% glancing blow damage compared to 18 barb(Mad Munitions and angry arms each add 5% and Focus Wide adds 10% on vorpal for 12 secs).

I've considered the glancing blow damage, and it depends on what kind of 18 barb you're talking about. If its a barb that tried to keep the ranged ability - the glancing blow damage is lower or 10% higher depending on your race choice.

For instance, Lets try a Horc 18 Barb/1Fighter/1Cleric Like I suggested earlier with Ranged capability:

Feats #: 7 Regular + 1 Fighter + 3 Epic = 11 Feats

1. IC: Ranged 2. Bow Strength 3. WF: Ranged 4: PBS 5: Rapid Shot 6: Manyshot 7: Cleave 8: Great Cleave 9: Overwhelming Critical 10: Power Attack 11: IC: Slashing

This Build doesn't have stunning blow, and loses 30% on glance damage due to the lack of all THF feats.

Lets try a human version with 1 extra feat - Now you gain stunning blow.

If you abandon the cleric, you lose a very substantial amount of strength, and replace it with, say ranger to gain 2 feats back:

Now you have THF/ITHF - still down 10% glancing damage, and judging from my current cha and subtracting completionist, about 14 strength with insightful 3 taken into account.

Now lets incorporate the AP's from frenzy:

37 Points in Frenzy tree - gives +20% glance damage - Now, horc 18/1/1 Cleric is 10% behind

Horc 18/1/1Ranger is 10% ahead - but loses divine might altogether.

Lets try a Barb with no ranged feats altogether - now it can freely pick up GTHF, and pull 20% ahead. But, manyshot is now lost.

3 feats remaining, since 3 of the 6 ranged feats went toward THF. As a horc, one would go toward stunning blow, and still two feats hanging around as a horc, one would go toward completionist for me - and the other can be either epic fortitude perhaps or whatever you like.

Either way, you either lose divine might - which is incredibly important as far as I'm concerned, or lose complete ranged capability, also hard to go back on after getting used to having.

It'll still be effective, but the saves are still crappy and something major has to give, its seems like a better choice to just go this split and have it all. =D


I Forgot that it doesn't have Supreme cleave to spam, so momentum swings is not gonna be up as much as pure barb, that does make human or half elf a no brainier, for some reason I keep assuming that everyone has access to those barb features.

You know, I went with a Fighter/barb/cleric split for exactly that reason - and I didn't like it. With the monk, I spam my earth strikes and fists of iron in addition to my momentum swings, so in actual practical gameplay - extra momentum swings mean nothing to me, I can barely keep up with hitting the ones I have as quick as possible.

I am not a Completionist though, and also only have EAGA which is why not 100% sure if this build is better for me, wouldn't going Half be better for the extra SA dice considering that I have a free feat spot since I don't have to take completionist?

Ehh...not really. For several reasons actually. 1. Not having completionsit means you can take a more meaningful feat for the extra feat you would have. Personally, if I HAD to pick a barb split, I'd choose the ranged version because I find it very effective to snipe things when needed (especially when I run fury), and use the extra human feat to pick up stunning blow (raging + divine might = workable DC). Also, human looks much better =D. Additionally, human has access to another healing amp tier over helf, and allows for several action surge boosts - +3 extra strength/cha/and maybe even dex or con. Helf has, and causes a dump point for the first core which is a turn off.



That's one of the things that I like about your build and was curious about the other build that was linked, If i am gonna have bad saves might as well not bother with tr'ing and stick to barb, I want it to be as different as possible.

The saves is a MAJOR point if EE content is what you're building for. I ran a mid 50's reflex on the cleric version and just got torn up. Now, I'm hitting 70 and I'm seeing evades all over the place, much better. Furthermore, having a mid 70's fortitude save allows me to neglect flesh to stones etc..

I tried to be different, but I'm going where the power is - even if it means cookie cutter at this point in time. A lot of ones originality sometimes emerges from your playstyle, not just the build split. Two people can play the same split very differently, so it doesn't really bother me.

Also my naga just got the double clicking problem a few months ago, second one they send me, might wanna see if there's a logitech alternative as i hear they have better quality, just figured i toss that out there since you did advertise it, because I like the mouse but it seems that quite a lot of them get faulty after a year or so(first one had double clicking probs after 6 months).

Yea, I've been lucky with mine and had it for almost 2 years now and no issues. The logitech one will probably be my go-to if this naga craps out. Either way, having a mouse with lots of buttons is my major point - regardless of what the maker is.

Comments in red.

Carpone abandoned saves for improved evasion, not like it wasn't deliberate. He has more damage mitigation and healing too, albeit from giving up ranged. Both builds obviously work. I was mostly interested in Carpone's to have a monk icon while swinging Cleaver around though.

Well, reflex isn't the only important save. Fortitude is just as important now, getting pwned at the end fight of EE what goes up because of a flesh to stone or a disintegrate wasn't something that had to be tolerated.

Also, failing a save + improved evasion < Making the save + evasion IMO. No need for improved evasion if you can just make the save.


Carpones build does have more damage mitigation, mostly because he has a higher PRR. But, this build can incorporate pretty much the same PRR sources as that build can - just twist in standing with stone, use the cleaver set bonus, and put points into the shintao earth stance enhancement.

The only difference is lack of cocoon and metamagic, which I don't really care for with back up LOH's and 333 a heal scroll. I ran all of the EE content in stormhorns with just heal scrolls and emergency LOH's, and did fine.

Afterall, its a DPS build - not a build made for survivability - so the build goals are quite different there - one maybe "better" than the other depending on what ones goals are too.


Thanks for the feedback folks. All good discussion!

[DnD3]

What do you think about the feat "Precise shot"? I know melees never stands still but not sure ranged, it says up to once every half second after you stand still for 3 seconds, can stack up to 15 times for a cool 30% with manyshot, or up to 50% with "improved archers focus", seems very situational but is taking this worth it?

[Cetus]

What do you think about the feat "Precise shot"? I know melees never stands still but not sure ranged, it says up to once every half second after you stand still for 3 seconds, can stack up to 15 times for a cool 30% with manyshot, or up to 50% with "improved archers focus", seems very situational but is taking this worth it?

Precise shot is only useful if you're looking to acquire improved precise shot. Alone, not worth it - especially for this build which uses ranged during manyshots.

I think Imprved precise shot is powerful ot have, but that would mean dropping GTHF/ITHF, or just GTHF if you are a non-completionist - eh, maybe...But I'm a melee build first, ranged second. This one will vary based on preference, either way is useful.

OP:

I've almost got the gear set figured out, ESOS is destroying cleaver DPS-wise because it allows me to equip a litany, drop nether grasps, equip backstabbers, drop Epic spare hand, and equip consuming darkness for seeker 12/+5 DC's. With litany, the build has a constant 44 charisma - no gear swaps needed. Furthermore, skirmishers bracers give me an additional 8% doublestrike - allowing me to sit at a total of 18% doublestrike with a 12/6/2 wielding an ESOS.

Additionally, it liberates several AP's in my destiny tree because I don't need headmans chop and used to have anvil of thunder. More destiny AP's = good.

The only swap this build needs is a planar focus trinket during manyshot to get the artifact damage bonus in.

Also, thought about wearing claw set but its less damage versus 8% doublestrike, or backstabbers gloves if I choose the bracers/gloves route.

Going gloves/trinket means losing backstabbers and litany - also a DPS loss.

This is the direction the gear is going so far, I'll do a more formal write up when its complete.

Its turning out pretty uber actually

[Cetus]

Added tentative gear setup and screenshot of self buffed stats

[Cetus]

OP Updated

[cdr]

You may want to use imgur.com for pics, so people don't have to deal with photobucket's terrible interface.

[Cetus]

You may want to use imgur.com for pics, so people don't have to deal with photobucket's terrible interface.

Cool, I'll try it

[djl]

I am looking very hard at TRing my barb into a monk/fighter build. I have both eSOS and Cleaver, although my Cleaver is not upgraded beyond the set bonus ATM.

The biggest thing for me is that I don't have a Pinion so doing the ranged build seems a bit silly. And since Turbine made the COMPLETELY ASININE decision to FUBAR everybody's raid completions, Web is no longer run nearly as often as it once was. I am currently sitting at 9 heroic/8 epic completions, so if they ever fix it I'll only be three away from a list.

So, first of all, what do I take in lieu of all those Ranger feats? I still have my "free" LR (used my +20 already) so if I ever get Pinion, I can use that to swap out all those feats to build for Manyshot.

Second, I obviously am not a completionist, so would I be able to take Blinding Speed at 27, or would that bork the build? I would be taking that instead of the completionist feat, if it doesn't mess up the feat order.

The last thing is that I lack a few key items from your build. I do not have a true globe, which hurts badly, and I don't have EE goats boots. I also don't have a Litany, or a +10 Stunning Dun Robar ring (although I can probably find one on the SAH eventually). I plan to use Arkat's Cord for the built-in Vitality and the two slots, and EE Jeweled Cloak. I would slot some kind of random-gen item in my trinket slot, possibly 10 strength 50 HP. I also have a 110% fort 8% dodge ring with two slots.

So, based off that, I have 9 slots. Without needing to slot Vitality or Heavy Fort, I need 5, plus an additional 4 minimum colorless to make up for all the exceptional +1s I am losing by not having a globe (strength, dex, con, charisma/wisdom). Think that would work?



To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion?

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed?

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective?


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

[Cetus]

I am looking very hard at TRing my barb into a monk/fighter build. I have both eSOS and Cleaver, although my Cleaver is not upgraded beyond the set bonus ATM.

The biggest thing for me is that I don't have a Pinion so doing the ranged build seems a bit silly. And since Turbine made the COMPLETELY ASININE decision to FUBAR everybody's raid completions, Web is no longer run nearly as often as it once was. I am currently sitting at 9 heroic/8 epic completions, so if they ever fix it I'll only be three away from a list.

So, first of all, what do I take in lieu of all those Ranger feats? I still have my "free" LR (used my +20 already) so if I ever get Pinion, I can use that to swap out all those feats to build for Manyshot.

Second, I obviously am not a completionist, so would I be able to take Blinding Speed at 27, or would that bork the build? I would be taking that instead of the completionist feat, if it doesn't mess up the feat order.

The last thing is that I lack a few key items from your build. I do not have a true globe, which hurts badly, and I don't have EE goats boots. I also don't have a Litany, or a +10 Stunning Dun Robar ring (although I can probably find one on the SAH eventually). I plan to use Arkat's Cord for the built-in Vitality and the two slots, and EE Jeweled Cloak. I would slot some kind of random-gen item in my trinket slot, possibly 10 strength 50 HP. I also have a 110% fort 8% dodge ring with two slots.

So, based off that, I have 9 slots. Without needing to slot Vitality or Heavy Fort, I need 5, plus an additional 4 minimum colorless to make up for all the exceptional +1s I am losing by not having a globe (strength, dex, con, charisma/wisdom). Think that would work?



To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion?

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed?

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective?


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

Ok, there's a lot here so allow me to employ a lettering format to organize the response a bit

A. Feats

So, if you aren't going to go ranged and don't have completionist - then you have 8 extra feats to play around with.

What I would do is max DPS, and put the rest into saves + tactics. The whirlwind attack chain comes to mind - but meh...the animation sucks and all that extra dodge is kind've worthless when blitzing (which is a lot of the time):

So, the 8 feats:

1. Greater Weapon Specialization (+2 Damage)
2. Precision (very useful for EE ice ellies and pillars, but kind've a pain to toggle with power attack)
3. Improved Sunder (no save fort debuff = better stuns)
4. Force of personality (Completely dump wisdom)
5. Pally Past life (if You don't have it, choose combat expertise)
6. If you chose combat expertise, acquire improved trip (this is 4 DC higher than regular trip, CC's assassins and casters nicely) Otherwise, choose power critical for 2 stacking seeker damage (ESOS crits 12-20 with iron fist, so it synergizes well)
7. Epic Feat: Epic Reflexes
8. Epic Feat: Epic Fortitude

I don't like wasting a feat on perma-haste, its a lazy way out and cheapens the build. Instead, get goatskins for permahaste.

B. Gear

Ehh...well at least you ahve something to grind for =D Litany, Globe, and Stunning +10 are kind've important, that allows brings you to +2 across all your stats, and makes your stunning blow useable.

If you can find a way to slot your exceptional +1's, do it I guess (forget wisdom if you take force of persoanlity, and forget intel for obvious reasons), but you won't have the slots for it when you progress to a more endgame setup.

You can still be effective, try to acquire at least the EN/EH version of the backstabbers gloves, the extra SA damage and improved deception are great.

Without the dun robar ring, your stuns won't be effective, but with it you'll actually be more effective than my build because of the improved sunder - which I couldn't fit in.

Be warned however, Improved sunder didn't seem to count toward blitz - and removes your normal sunder feat which does. So, charging blitz will be a tad slower - however the fortitude debuff is nice, your won't get the fortification one unless you swap in a shatter item, which you can do if you are into that.

Hope that helps

[Nightmanis]

To recap:

1) What feats do I take instead of Ranger feats, until I get a pinion? It's not even mandatory to have Pinion. Just get a good bow and use it until then. Pinion may be the best but that doesn't mean everything else is complete trash. There are still barbs using EAGA and doing quite well.

2) Would I be able to take Blinding Speed? I don't see what it would hurt.

3) Because I do not have a few of the items (most importantly, Globe, Backstabbers Gloves, and Dun Robar), would I still be able to be effective? Same as the Pinion. Get something good to fill the slot with until you do have the item.


Thanks in advance for any questions you are able to answer!

Messages are coloured.

[djl]

Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

[Nightmanis]

Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

Because of the improved deception on them there is a strong chance that you will be able to sneak attack them even if you have aggro. Improved deception also works as a great form of damage reduction because nearly every time it procs the enemy will spin around. I keep a set of deception wraps on my rogue/monk simply because the Backstabber's and the wraps will work together and keep the enemy spinning around quite a lot. Useful only when I'm trying to tank something, though.

[Cetus]

Well, I managed to snag a pair of EH boots. That will have to do for now.

I have another question-- Why backstabbers gloves? If you have aggro, you don't benefit from them and you'll likely have aggro most of the time, especially when you are blitzing.

Yea, what night said - also remember that blitz affects your SA damage too, so with the ninja spy sneak attack training + backstabbers = very nice SA damage.

[cdr]

On the subject of bows, if you have them in your bank, Unwavering Ardency (Abbot) or Epic Thornlord (Sands) are the top Pinion stand-ins. The Bow of Sinew (Harbringer of Madness chain reward) is trivial to acquire and actually one of the top 5 high damage mod vs no fort target bows. I guess it's questionable whether you actually get a high damage mod though, considering the Ninja Spy bug. The Silver Flame Longbow (Church and Cult) should be competitive with Bow of Sinew if you have Seeker somewhere else already.