U19 Fighter Build: Cetus

[Cetus]

Do you use the same level split as BF? Because there is no way to get Quicken for your reconstruct SLA as far as I can tell with this split.

I have a similar character (BF), but I have 4 paladin (well, right now I have 6 because I am testing stuff, but 4 is looking more likely eventually), which loses the +8 STR from power surge and has to drop 3 feats from your build (1 human, 1 fighter, 1 quicken). Completionist, IC:Ranged, Stunning blow I guess. Or maybe take stunning blow over GTHF...

Power surge can be obtained with 12/4/4 but that is one feat less (loses the monk bonus Zen Archery and the granted Adept of Forms, while gaining only 1 slot).

I am obviously not too happy about that, so I've been thinking about giving up on being centered and going 12/6P/2M or 14/4P/2M. But then I lose 25% incorp, 1 crit multi on 19-20, and the option to twist in +1.5W. This seems even worse. On the upside, it gives the option to get Improved Precise shot (by also losing IC Ranged and Stunning Blow) and IPS is amazing. Although then I would probably end up running in Fury and playing like a monkcher that has no 10kS and waits for Manyshot cooldowns and has 2.5W less weapon damage... I already have a proper monkcher, I don't want another one that is worse

There is also the nuclear option of dropping ranged completely, which fixes most of the problems (still loses either power surge or 25% incorp), but losing ranged is pretty crappy.

Since none of these options are all that attractive, do you (or anyone else) maybe have any better ideas on how to work in Quicken (assuming 2 pally for the saves bonus and evasion are critical and I definitely don't want to lose those).

I know you probably don't consider Quicken necessary because you don't mind jumping away for healing but I really hate having to do that. Although I might have to live with it because all the options of working Quicken in that I can think of require sacrificing a bunch of stuff.

Answering in order:

1. Yes, I remained the same level split as a bladeforged.

2. A 12/4/4 is actually 3 less feats if you want quicken, you mentioned the loss of the monk freebee at 6 and the granted stance, but then an additional feat for quicken itself.

3. Losing center is the worst thing you can do lol

So the problem you have is simply that you want quicken, right?

In order to get quicken I suggest 2 options - Go with the 12/4/4 split and the two feats you give up will then be the ITHF and completionist just to accommodate the split. Then you need to sacrifice a third feat in order to get quicken - that becomes difficult. You can't drop THF, since that is a monk feat. You'd probably have to drop either stunning blow, overwhelming critical, or improved critical ranged - if you drop ranged capability altogether, then your problem simplifies.

The second option is the one I think is much more robust - and it has been an idea tossing around in my head for a while - go 12 fighter / 6 monk / 2 cleric - that way you don't lose the 2 feats from dropping to 4 monk, you can get quicken from cleric by dropping ITHF (or completionist alternative if you aren't one), and you'd save the twist slot too.

The issue I still can't get past with this build is the loss of saves though...but with bladeforged immunities and quickened reconstruct you might be ok anyway.

There isn't any better alternative as far as I can tell

[Ctype]

You tested the BF version... I'm tempted by that, i know for EE, manyshot is a most (almost mandatory) but if i stuck to epic, and EH... can i safely drop range and still be effective?
Range on a melee is "dirty"

Sure you can be effective but i wouldt use this build if i didnt want to use a bow. I had a different build before with 9 monk, 8 fighter 3 pally that didnt shoot. So i basically traded in my improved evasion to fit in the range part. I also used to feel like i wanted to be mor "pure" and not range on the fighter. But i realised i wanted more out of the char - and there is situations when it is more efficient to be able to pull out a bow. So in my mind this build is more complete fighter for me.

I have played melee builds since game came out and I never stop to be interested in a new build. This build suits my completionist main and Im happy Cetus shared the concept for inspiration. Ofc there is also room to tweak how you like builds - not all players like the same things or value things the same way. How boring would that be.

[svinja]

Answering in order:

1. Yes, I remained the same level split as a bladeforged.

2. A 12/4/4 is actually 3 less feats if you want quicken, you mentioned the loss of the monk freebee at 6 and the granted stance, but then an additional feat for quicken itself.

3. Losing center is the worst thing you can do lol

So the problem you have is simply that you want quicken, right?

In order to get quicken I suggest 2 options - Go with the 12/4/4 split and the two feats you give up will then be the ITHF and completionist just to accommodate the split. Then you need to sacrifice a third feat in order to get quicken - that becomes difficult. You can't drop THF, since that is a monk feat. You'd probably have to drop either stunning blow, overwhelming critical, or improved critical ranged - if you drop ranged capability altogether, then your problem simplifies.

The second option is the one I think is much more robust - and it has been an idea tossing around in my head for a while - go 12 fighter / 6 monk / 2 cleric - that way you don't lose the 2 feats from dropping to 4 monk, you can get quicken from cleric by dropping ITHF (or completionist alternative if you aren't one), and you'd save the twist slot too.

The issue I still can't get past with this build is the loss of saves though...but with bladeforged immunities and quickened reconstruct you might be ok anyway.

There isn't any better alternative as far as I can tell

Thanks! Yeah, it is all about fitting in Quicken.

I'll think about the cleric option. I agree it is the "cleanest" option, the thing is, this character used to be a horc barbarian built purely for dps which got TRed because I got sick of failing saves.

On an unrelated note, I just realized all my high level characters except for my wizard have at least 2 paladin levels... That's kind of sad, but seeing how many 2 pally I see running around, it's not just me. Before the first expansion, high saves classes could reach ~40 (which is what ~70 is now) without splashing pally, most builds could reach it in their "good save", you only splashed pally if you wanted to improve saves on crappy saves classes... But with +10/+11 items, +5 tomes, etc the power of divine grace went up, the enemy DCs went up a huge amount, while the class-granted saves (remember "monks/fvs have good saves"? lol) lost significance. It's become all about divine grace, in a way (for most builds - my monkcher could technically get over 70 if I dropped the pally splash, but it would require a few gimpy choices).

[Chilldude]

Cetus... YOU FREAKIN' ROCK!

I stopped playing 6 months ago when they obliterated casters with the nerf nuke. I came back to play in a static group and stumbled across this build... YOU'VE GIVEN ME BACK MY CASTERS! Well, of course not really, there's nothing caster about this build except the massive damage and huge survivablity formerly enjoyed by casters.

I've still got a lot to learn about melee, and my toons aren't as powerful as yours is, so I've dropped all the ranged stuff so I could pick up more monk forms and saves, but with your build I am once again laying waste to the evil that stalks the night. I just got done with an at level heroic elite Tor with dragons and while I might not have had the most damage output getting to the dragons, when we got there everyone else in the party was going ding ding ding like a Salvation Army Santa, while I hacked and slashed away with impunity.

I've got 2 of these builds, one human fleshy and one bladeforged. The human is an axer with some serious DPS, but in mid heroic levels still struggling with UMD to scroll heal, but with the super high saves and displacement it hasn't been much of a problem. The bladeforged is a greatsword build, he's got a bit less damage, but even with the pitance of SP afforded by archmagi (about 240), I've never run out of self heals because he's such a beast with massive HP so I can afford to take a few on the chin before a reconstruct brings me back to full.

Anyway, as someone who's never really dabbled with melee all that much, I really wanted to thank you for the excellent build. Can't wait to get these guys up into epic levels and really test their mettle.

[Cetus]

Cetus... YOU FREAKIN' ROCK!

I stopped playing 6 months ago when they obliterated casters with the nerf nuke. I came back to play in a static group and stumbled across this build... YOU'VE GIVEN ME BACK MY CASTERS! Well, of course not really, there's nothing caster about this build except the massive damage and huge survivablity formerly enjoyed by casters.

I've still got a lot to learn about melee, and my toons aren't as powerful as yours is, so I've dropped all the ranged stuff so I could pick up more monk forms and saves, but with your build I am once again laying waste to the evil that stalks the night. I just got done with an at level heroic elite Tor with dragons and while I might not have had the most damage output getting to the dragons, when we got there everyone else in the party was going ding ding ding like a Salvation Army Santa, while I hacked and slashed away with impunity.

I've got 2 of these builds, one human fleshy and one bladeforged. The human is an axer with some serious DPS, but in mid heroic levels still struggling with UMD to scroll heal, but with the super high saves and displacement it hasn't been much of a problem. The bladeforged is a greatsword build, he's got a bit less damage, but even with the pitance of SP afforded by archmagi (about 240), I've never run out of self heals because he's such a beast with massive HP so I can afford to take a few on the chin before a reconstruct brings me back to full.

Anyway, as someone who's never really dabbled with melee all that much, I really wanted to thank you for the excellent build. Can't wait to get these guys up into epic levels and really test their mettle.

Your commendations are warmly received. I'm glad you enjoy it - have fun!

[ChemE]

Will this build work for my soon to be third life fighter, Sorrowanddoo? I have acess to the monk class but have not yet used any +5 tomes. I have used a +4 str tome and the rest are +3's. I have all the usual THF gear including ESOS and cormyrian armor as well as flawless black.

Anyone? I mainly just need to know if this build is still decent for a thf human whose tomes aren't quite up to snuff but will be there eventually. I tend to tr not very often and paly as is for long periods of time, except for my PM.

[zwiebelring]

Make the build work with whatever you have. The benchmark you are asking for is not given. Of course you will have less numbers than a toon with allout +5 tomes. Then adjust the main stats accordingly and live with that -1 to -2 to saves in comparison. other than that you might lose dps a little bit. The variance might be less then 300 dmg difference, assuming full stacks of MB. But when you deal 2k+ average damage, that factor has no real impact, just survive a little longer in ee. The main problem would be to heal yourself good enough. BFs got Reconstruct, humans got heal amp. option, so the gear should be centered around that.

I sometimes feel, people get too afraid when somebody posts a build with good synergies and they don't have the exact same gear.The limitting factor, however, is the weapon. If you do not own Planar weapons or esos,you of course have a big loss of dps compared to the OP. But that does notmean the build does not work anymore.

[ChemE]

Make the build work with whatever you have. The benchmark you are asking for is not given. Of course you will have less numbers than a toon with allout +5 tomes. Then adjust the main stats accordingly and live with that -1 to -2 to saves in comparison. other than that you might lose dps a little bit. The variance might be less then 300 dmg difference, assuming full stacks of MB. But when you deal 2k+ average damage, that factor has no real impact, just survive a little longer in ee. The main problem would be to heal yourself good enough. BFs got Reconstruct, humans got heal amp. option, so the gear should be centered around that.

I sometimes feel, people get too afraid when somebody posts a build with good synergies and they don't have the exact same gear.

I just wanted to make sure it will still be viable, since I plan to be in it for quite some time. I was thinking about bladeforged but that's a pretty big leap for me since all my toons are usually human, with a few horc and drow lives thrown in. I should have made a +5 tome from mabar on this toon but I spent to long making sure my wiz got one and ran out of time. Are most people using dreadnaught with this build? Or some other destiny?

[zwiebelring]

Cannot give an answer to that but Dreadnought is the 1st idea coming to my mind if I ever wanted to play this build. Centered Planar Focus sounds yummy (didn't check if One With The Blade is applicable to greataxes). centered eSoS gives you more flexibility in trinkets and weapons witching, then I'd probably used FoTW.

[Drwaz99]

Cannot give an answer to that but Dreadnought is the 1st idea coming to my mind if I ever wanted to play this build. Centered Planar Focus sounds yummy (didn't check if One With The Blade is applicable to greataxes). centered eSoS gives you more flexibility in trinkets and weapons witching, then I'd probably used FoTW.

Yea, you can be centered with greataxes (you just choose axes instead of heavy blades out of the groups) and as such you can use one with blade with no problems. Even without planar trinkets, LD is the way to go. Once you get a blitz going you can chew thru trash incredibly efficiently.

[Nodoze]

Is it confirmed that the Bladeforged "Communion of Scribing" (tier 2 Reconstruct SLA) can actually be interrupted and needs to have the Quicken meta to be guaranteed to succeed?

The reason I ask is that I thought I read earlier in this thread or another thread that it wasn't required and I don't remember my level 24 (banked 25) BF has ever had his reconstruct interrupted yet and I don't have quicken (I figured I would keep the full bow abilities and see how it goes)...

That being said I am typically duoing with my kid who is running a Lv 24 (also banked 25) FvS who is a maxed TWF Warpriest Ameliorating Strike build so with all the double proc's and Mass Heals when needed I don't actually have to cast Reconstruct that often (and I do have a high concentration/constitution with a +15 concentration item so maybe I have just been lucky).

Also wanted to say thanks for the build ideas and that I am really enjoying them... I tried the Human version and loved the heal amp but I hated jumping out of combat to scroll heal so I am really liking the Blade Forged version even more.

[Takllin]

Is it confirmed that the Bladeforged "Communion of Scribing" (tier 2 Reconstruct SLA) can actually be interrupted and needs to have the Quicken meta to be guaranteed to succeed?

The reason I ask is that I thought I read earlier in this thread or another thread that it wasn't required and I don't remember my level 24 (banked 25) BF has ever had his reconstruct interrupted yet and I don't have quicken (I figured I would keep the full bow abilities and see how it goes)...

That being said I am typically duoing with my kid who is running a Lv 24 (also banked 25) FvS who is a maxed TWF Warpriest Ameliorating Strike build so with all the double proc's and Mass Heals when needed I don't actually have to cast Reconstruct that often (and I do have a high concentration/constitution with a +15 concentration item so maybe I have just been lucky).

Also wanted to say thanks for the build ideas and that I am really enjoying them... I tried the Human version and loved the heal amp but I hated jumping out of combat to scroll heal so I am really liking the Blade Forged version even more.

The SLA cannot be interrupted. Quicken is just a nice addition just to make it a quicker cast.

[unbongwah]

It would be more accurate to say you don't have to make a Concentration check in order to use it (or any other SLA); you can still be tripped, stunned, etc. before you finish casting it, though.

[Nodoze]

The SLA cannot be interrupted. Quicken is just a nice addition just to make it a quicker cast.

It would be more accurate to say you don't have to make a Concentration check in order to use it (or any other SLA); you can still be tripped, stunned, etc. before you finish casting it, though.

Thanks and both responses are very helpful. My main concern was whether or not higher incoming damage could interrupt it (concentration checks). When I really need it I certainly would hate to be held, tripped, stunned, etc before getting it off. That being said, after playing mainly divines, the non-quickened SLA seems lightning fast compared to the quickened-mass-heals ... While quicken certainly would be nice-to-have I am not sure I would give up any of the feats in the build just to speed up the already pretty quick SLA... If it did require concentration checks then I would probably swap some feat out (likely one of the THF ones?)...

[svinja]

Wow, that's really good to know. I didn't know they don't trigger conc checks. And I've been using SLAs such as coccoon forever... Weird I haven't noticed.

I have settled on a different but similar build and I just need to figure out the cheapest way to LR my failure uncentered version into it. Bladeforged, 12 fighter 6 monk 2 favored soul. Drop ranged feats (obviously, this doesn't need to be done - paladin gives 0 extra feats just like fvs - it is just my preference, it could be built the same way a paladin version is). This is about the version that drops ranged, since I will use that one.

Feats:

PA, Cleave, GCleave, Stunning Blow, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Master of Forms, IC:Slash, WF/GWF: Slash, WS/GWS: Slash, Overwhelming Critical, PTHF, PTWF

This leaves 4 non-epic and 2 epic feat slots. I am leaning towards: Epic Reflexes, Epic Fortitude, Quicken, Mental toughness, Improved Sunder and Dodge.


Enhancements:

11 Ninja (incorp), 33 Kensei (centered), 3 Warpriest (DM2), 17 Bladeforged (power of the forge and weapon attachment) are basically non-negotiable. I also want 11 Stalwart for the stance. So this leaves just 5 points to play around with:
- 5 for 2 to all saves from Aov, used below
- 2 for BF tactics III, 2 for BF power attack I, 1 for DM3
- something else...

Ditching Stalwart stance would open up 11 points. 8 points in BF tactics III, and BF PA I-III for max offense. With the last 3 points - 2 in AoV for +1 to all saves, 1 for last tier of ninja spy reflex (or DMIII). 10% move speed, 1 DC and 6 damage per hit vs 2 fort, 2 will, 1 reflex, 25 PRR. I will have to see which version I like more.

Saves:

4 epic
4 fighter (ignoring 4 fort for now)
5 monk
3 fvs
2 fvs enhancement (can't afford the AP for the third one)
10 resistance
4 insight bracers
2 luck augment
1 alchemical
4 gh
3 stalwart stance

= 42 baseline in all 3

Fort: 42 + 4 fighter + 15 con + 2 epic feat = 63
Refl: 42 + 10 dex + 2 ninja + 2 epic feat + 2 kensei = 58
Will: 42 + 6 wis = 48

With short buffs (tenser, fire finisher, power of the forge): 71/66/54, not failing reflex or fort on a 1. 66 is no fail in EE tor blue dragon room. Maybe not enough everywhere, but it is pretty good. There is always the option of temporarily going into ocean stance. Most importantly, we have two free twist slots (don't need brace for impact, don't need turn undead)! When I want saves, I can twist in 6 reflex+3 dodge and 6 fort, or whatever, or of course use brace for impact. When I don't, I can twist something else for more DPS. Or even +10% SP for the 30 SP echoes of power that can power a quickened reconstruct.

Spell points:

Should be well over 800 at 28 with mental toughness and a shroud SP smoke belt. Smoke belt seems pretty useful, I have 25 incorp so won't be needing the ring of shadows - if I am forgetting a better alternative, or using a bad slot, please tell me before I craft the belt I haven't planned out the gear completely. I know EE ring of shadows has 25% blur but I don't have one and this character is not the first in line to get one.

PRR:

16 augment
12 earth stance
25 stalwart stance
15 planar set (Cleaver)

68... Seems low, maybe I'm forgetting something (no AP for the +15 PRR in earth stance in Shintao). My paladin has 155 in a robe and uncentered... Not sure. Situational +10 from power of the forge, and some more from the BF "DO NOT USE" slashing proc.

I am too lazy to do a HP and STR breakdown. Should have similar HP and STR to the paladin version. A few less STR than human due to human STR and action boost STR/CHA enhancements. However it has +2 bladeforged tactics (possibly +3) the human doesn't get and can easily afford Improved Sunder.

Nice things:
- More than double SP (with all the SP items, without items the 2 pally obviously has 0 or 80 with magical training - human doesn't need the SP though)
- There are 2 disposable twist slots (the only needed one is dance of flowers) from not needing turn undead and fortification (BF get +50%) - sense weakness, primal scream, +6 to a save or two...
- Greater Weapon Specialization
- Flexible feat choices
- Doesn't rely on divine grace for its saves in case the 2 pally splash gets nerfed

What a ranged version would lose: 2 fort and no-fail on 1, 2 reflex and no-fail on 1, quicken, mental toughness, imp sunder, dodge, GWS: Slash. The only unfortunate circumstance is that the ranged version needs a +3 heart to LR into, as the last monk level needs to be backloaded for +5 tome Zen Archery. I intend to frontload the last monk level to avoid using an epic feat on Master of Forms. Either way, the ranged version doesn't lose all that much, even though it may end up in "always run with +6 fort and +6 reflex twists in EE" territory. But I want to try the pure melee version first.

Anyone see a reason not to go for this, before I burn 2 lesser hearts?

[Cetus]

Wow, that's really good to know. I didn't know they don't trigger conc checks. And I've been using SLAs such as coccoon forever... Weird I haven't noticed.

I have settled on a different but similar build and I just need to figure out the cheapest way to LR my failure uncentered version into it. Bladeforged, 12 fighter 6 monk 2 favored soul. Drop ranged feats (obviously, this doesn't need to be done - paladin gives 0 extra feats just like fvs - it is just my preference, it could be built the same way a paladin version is). This is about the version that drops ranged, since I will use that one.

Feats:

PA, Cleave, GCleave, Stunning Blow, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Master of Forms, IC:Slash, WF/GWF: Slash, WS/GWS: Slash, Overwhelming Critical, PTHF, PTWF

This leaves 4 non-epic and 2 epic feat slots. I am leaning towards: Epic Reflexes, Epic Fortitude, Quicken, Mental toughness, Improved Sunder and Dodge.


Enhancements:

11 Ninja (incorp), 33 Kensei (centered), 3 Warpriest (DM2), 17 Bladeforged (power of the forge and weapon attachment) are basically non-negotiable. I also want 11 Stalwart for the stance. So this leaves just 5 points to play around with:
- 5 for 2 to all saves from Aov, used below
- 2 for BF tactics III, 2 for BF power attack I, 1 for DM3
- something else...

Ditching Stalwart stance would open up 11 points. 8 points in BF tactics III, and BF PA I-III for max offense. With the last 3 points - 2 in AoV for +1 to all saves, 1 for last tier of ninja spy reflex (or DMIII). 10% move speed, 1 DC and 6 damage per hit vs 2 fort, 2 will, 1 reflex, 25 PRR. I will have to see which version I like more.

Saves:

4 epic
4 fighter (ignoring 4 fort for now)
5 monk
3 fvs
2 fvs enhancement (can't afford the AP for the third one)
10 resistance
4 insight bracers
2 luck augment
1 alchemical
4 gh
3 stalwart stance

= 42 baseline in all 3

Fort: 42 + 4 fighter + 15 con + 2 epic feat = 63
Refl: 42 + 10 dex + 2 ninja + 2 epic feat + 2 kensei = 58
Will: 42 + 6 wis = 48

With short buffs (tenser, fire finisher, power of the forge): 71/66/54, not failing reflex or fort on a 1. 66 is no fail in EE tor blue dragon room. Maybe not enough everywhere, but it is pretty good. There is always the option of temporarily going into ocean stance. Most importantly, we have two free twist slots (don't need brace for impact, don't need turn undead)! When I want saves, I can twist in 6 reflex+3 dodge and 6 fort, or whatever, or of course use brace for impact. When I don't, I can twist something else for more DPS. Or even +10% SP for the 30 SP echoes of power that can power a quickened reconstruct.

Spell points:

Should be well over 800 at 28 with mental toughness and a shroud SP smoke belt. Smoke belt seems pretty useful, I have 25 incorp so won't be needing the ring of shadows - if I am forgetting a better alternative, or using a bad slot, please tell me before I craft the belt I haven't planned out the gear completely. I know EE ring of shadows has 25% blur but I don't have one and this character is not the first in line to get one.

PRR:

16 augment
12 earth stance
25 stalwart stance
15 planar set (Cleaver)

68... Seems low, maybe I'm forgetting something (no AP for the +15 PRR in earth stance in Shintao). My paladin has 155 in a robe and uncentered... Not sure. Situational +10 from power of the forge, and some more from the BF "DO NOT USE" slashing proc.

I am too lazy to do a HP and STR breakdown. Should have similar HP and STR to the paladin version. A few less STR than human due to human STR and action boost STR/CHA enhancements. However it has +2 bladeforged tactics (possibly +3) the human doesn't get and can easily afford Improved Sunder.

Nice things:
- More than double SP (with all the SP items, without items the 2 pally obviously has 0 or 80 with magical training - human doesn't need the SP though)
- There are 2 disposable twist slots (the only needed one is dance of flowers) from not needing turn undead and fortification (BF get +50%) - sense weakness, primal scream, +6 to a save or two...
- Greater Weapon Specialization
- Flexible feat choices
- Doesn't rely on divine grace for its saves in case the 2 pally splash gets nerfed

What a ranged version would lose: 2 fort and no-fail on 1, 2 reflex and no-fail on 1, quicken, mental toughness, imp sunder, dodge, GWS: Slash. The only unfortunate circumstance is that the ranged version needs a +3 heart to LR into, as the last monk level needs to be backloaded for +5 tome Zen Archery. I intend to frontload the last monk level to avoid using an epic feat on Master of Forms. Either way, the ranged version doesn't lose all that much, even though it may end up in "always run with +6 fort and +6 reflex twists in EE" territory. But I want to try the pure melee version first.

Anyone see a reason not to go for this, before I burn 2 lesser hearts?

Several Issues here:

- You can't take epic reflexes AND epic fortitude, the requirement for each of them is ML 27.

- Cleric > FVS because of Warpriest

- Losing Pally = Significantly weaker saves (the sole reason why I haven't switched to cleric yet)

- Losing ranged has nothing to do with the split difference, you can lose range on either version identically.

- Dodge isn't going to give you anything while blitzing - since it already caps this build at like 27% - isn't worth a feat slot to me

- I'm not too big of a fan of improved sunder here, too many things to keep track of already. I intend to land my stuns without the help of improved sunder.

- Greater Weapon Spec is nice, but not worth losing full ranged capability for.

- Only other real benefit of taking out pally is the liberation of the twist slot. The second twist in my opinion should be sense weakness.

I'm waiting for lamannia to go live to play with the cleric split, its tempting to do even though the save loss will really suck

[svinja]

Several Issues here:

- You can't take epic reflexes AND epic fortitude, the requirement for each of them is ML 27.

- Cleric > FVS because of Warpriest

- Losing Pally = Significantly weaker saves (the sole reason why I haven't switched to cleric yet)

- Losing ranged has nothing to do with the split difference, you can lose range on either version identically.

- Dodge isn't going to give you anything while blitzing - since it already caps this build at like 27% - isn't worth a feat slot to me

- I'm not too big of a fan of improved sunder here, too many things to keep track of already. I intend to land my stuns without the help of improved sunder.

- Greater Weapon Spec is nice, but not worth losing full ranged capability for.

- Only other real benefit of taking out pally is the liberation of the twist slot. The second twist in my opinion should be sense weakness.

I'm waiting for lamannia to go live to play with the cleric split, its tempting to do even though the save loss will really suck

I understand the rest, but why cleric > FVS? Is there a difference between FVS and cleric warpriest trees? As far as I can tell, FVS has up to +6 to all saves (vs cleric 3 fort 0 reflex 3 will) and more spell points, and that's the only difference between them for a build like this. I can't think of any advantage of taking cleric.

Thanks for your comments.

[Cetus]

I understand the rest, but why cleric > FVS? Is there a difference between FVS and cleric warpriest trees? As far as I can tell, FVS has up to +6 to all saves (vs cleric 3 fort 0 reflex 3 will) and more spell points, and that's the only difference between them for a build like this. I can't think of any advantage of taking cleric.

Thanks for your comments.

Oh they both get it, nevermind I was wrong.

Yea, in that case it seems that fvs is the better way to go.

[Nightmanis]

Oh they both get it, nevermind I was wrong.

Yea, in that case it seems that fvs is the better way to go.

Cleric allows you to get Wand and scroll mastery for 4ap. Fvs needs a lot more.

aaaaaaaaaand that's about it.

[Sokól]

Cleric allows you to get Wand and scroll mastery for 4ap. Fvs needs a lot more.

aaaaaaaaaand that's about it.

FVS vs Cleric for a 2 level splash:

Cleric: Wand and scroll mastery, +1 1st level spell

FVS: +3 reflex save, more sp