Incinerating Wave and Cauldron of Flame

[Velkynn]

I wanted to do some testing in the current build for the abilities noted in the subject thread.

Incinerating wave - good damage but the ability is bugged. It only deals the initial tick of damage and does not continue as a dot after the initial tick. Its clear from the description that its supposed to tick every 2 seconds (for how long??).

Cauldron of Flame - completely worthless now. Its original incarnation was good damage, limited of course by its two huge drawbacks (limited casts per rest and needing to stand still). Now the ability barely tickles mobs on EE, completely ruined.

There was very few incentives for a monk to go up the Henshin line when cauldron did decent damage, who is going to waste points in this tree now? I love void IV but I am not spending 30 points on useless abilities to get there.

I understand the tree has good synergy for all of the quarterstaff using acrobat/monk hybrids that will pop up, but how about some incentive for a traditional monk to consider this path?

[Feather_of_Sun]

I wanted to do some testing in the current build for the abilities noted in the subject thread.

Incinerating wave - good damage but the ability is bugged. It only deals the initial tick of damage and does not continue as a dot after the initial tick. Its clear from the description that its supposed to tick every 2 seconds (for how long??).

It's working as intended. Enemies hit by it take the damage, and if they (possible, but unlikely) remain in the incinerating wave, they'll continue to take damage every 2 seconds.

Most enemies will only be hit once as the wave passes through them. That's why the base damage is higher than a comparable spell like Fireball.

The damage scales with Fire and Force spell power.

Cauldron of Flame - completely worthless now. Its original incarnation was good damage, limited of course by its two huge drawbacks (limited casts per rest and needing to stand still). Now the ability barely tickles mobs on EE, completely ruined.

Like other spells, Cauldron of Flame scales with Spell Power, so you can buff its damage significantly by gearing for Fire Spell Power.

[Velkynn]

Thank you for clarifying. I wanted to ask because both abilities worked very different from their current incarnations the last time I tested them.

[Vargouille]

Thank you for clarifying. I wanted to ask because both abilities worked very different from their current incarnations the last time I tested them.

There were some major bugs with those two abilities for some time.

I'm really glad Incinerating Wave now throws out a giant V of fire instead of just putting a DOT on one enemy (which was never intended).

[Feather_of_Sun]

Thank you for clarifying. I wanted to ask because both abilities worked very different from their current incarnations the last time I tested them.

A situation where an enemy might be hit by Incinerating Wave multiple times would be a very large enemy, such as a dragon, or an enemy that for some reason is running in the same direction as the wave and manages to keep up with it. =)

We do appreciate the feedback. If we think these abilities are really under-preforming once everyone gets a chance to play around with them on Live, we can always look into buffing them in the future.

[Velkynn]

I think incinerating wave is fine since it only costs 20 ki to activate, but cauldron of flames has very limited uses per rest along with a requirement to remain more or less standing in place. I think for those reasons it should do more than it does.

The damage of the original version of cauldron was probably too much since the damage ticks stacked on top of the last tick cumulatively rather than the damage of a single stack increasing over time. I thought the stated damage of the original version seemed more appropriate though (4D10 + 2D10 per tick) compared to the current iteration.

I am speaking from the perspective of running in epic elite. And honestly I was mostly looking forward to using it as a damage supplement on non-stunnable mobs and bosses.

Thanks for your time.

[bbqzor]

I'm really glad Incinerating Wave now throws out a giant V of fire instead of just putting a DOT on one enemy (which was never intended).

I found the dot more useful, since monks already have several avenues for AE damage (cleaves, whirlwind, the ki abilities in gmof, etc) while they have zero dot effects, especially at range (it was cool synergy with kukan-do and the lotus shots). But as stated, it does enough dmg for a cheap enough ki cost that either version is alright I suppose, if you can boost it up with fire.

We do appreciate the feedback. If we think these abilities are really under-preforming once everyone gets a chance to play around with them on Live, we can always look into buffing them in the future.

Im not sure how many people will use it on Live, since the tree is pretty unappealing. Its basically committing to Void 4 at the expense of all the other abilities. Either version of Incinerating Wave is more or less a typical dps type thing, but Cauldron really lacks.

To get more than 2 uses you have to multiclass into Fighter I think? And since it takes 18 monk to get Cauldron, youre basically stuck with an 18/2 split to use it. In any event, it topped out, for me, around 110ish dmg per tick towards the end of the dots.

Even if you assume taking maximize (for whatever reason) and slotted a 120 fire aug/item somewhere, thats only a few ticks of 300 dmg. Thats like maybe firewall level dps? Except its only 2/rest (or 5/rest if you do the one build which allows that)... and you HAVE to stay standing STILL... in the center of a group of mobs. Giving up the ability to move (cornerstone of the monk class, and requiring 18+ monk levels definitely makes it a monk centric ability) is tough.

So against a group of mobs its a firewall which makes you tank the entire group, and against a single mob its not really anything to write home about since it isnt making use of the AE portion. And in either event, the uses are so low that its just hard to justify taking it at the expense of something else... even if it did enough damage to be meaningful on EE (which right now it doesnt). Regardless of the "suicide on EE" issue which comes up standing still in the middle of a pack on EE, trading off a lot of play style for a lot of risk should payoff more than a firewall click, IMO, at any difficulty.

Long story short, I think more uses might be good (or maybe a +meditations per day enhancement in the monk trees instead of the fighter ones....), and it definitely needs a damage bump. Something where Henshin gives more meaningful Fire spellpower would be an okay starter (maybe each of the +vulernability strikes can also add +20 passive spell power... so like fire vulnerability also gives the monk fire spell power). That would also give casters a reason to splash into the "caster" monk tree. Or maybe just a bump on the base damage (cutting it from 4d10 to 2d6 was quite the cut, maybe go back to 4d10 or at least 4d6).

EDIT: Ok there are some extra meditations in Henshin, just didnt catch them before. Leaving the original paragraph there for context but even at 5/rest a Firewall clicky isnt all that. I mean how many casters run around epics with firewall being the go-to and then only standing still when using it. Its a tough sell to use it that way, especially on an 18+ monk where sourcing fire spell power is very tough and isnt adding to a whole line of spells or something, it needs to payoff more.

Just some thoughts. I also really appreciated a new monk option which some unique abilities instead of the same old thing weve seen. And after the "fixes" it kind of wound up as where theyre just so marginal that taking them is a terrible build idea for epic level play. Turn my sad panda frown upside down and give me the ability to actually light a room full of guys on fire.... fire which might hurt them enough I could see hp bars move. The first versions were cool since their dps was meaningful, hopefully it can go back that direction some. Thanks!

And while youre here, whats up with only having one Void ability at the top of Henshin? That makes it impossible for anyone except Tier 5 Henshins to use the force-light-force and force-dark-force combo mobs, that we currently get at level 5 if memory serves. I know this was brought up before, and adding a lower level force strike was said possible... that going to happen? Doesnt have to be like lowering Void 4... but maybe you can add back like "Basic Void" that does damage which scales like the regular ki strikes (so like, it advances with monk levels similar to the Animal Enhancements, pacing the damage from the regular strikes so up do 2d10 at 20 or whatever) a bit lower in another tree, so that those combos are available for use to builds other than Max Henshin.

[Maelodic]

I found the dot more useful, since monks already have several avenues for AE damage (cleaves, whirlwind, the ki abilities in gmof, etc) while they have zero dot effects, especially at range (it was cool synergy with kukan-do and the lotus shots). But as stated, it does enough dmg for a cheap enough ki cost that either version is alright I suppose, if you can boost it up with fire.



Im not sure how many people will use it on Live, since the tree is pretty unappealing. Its basically committing to Void 4 at the expense of all the other abilities. Either version of Incinerating Wave is more or less a typical dps type thing, but Cauldron really lacks.

To get more than 2 uses you have to multiclass into Fighter I think? And since it takes 18 monk to get Cauldron, youre basically stuck with an 18/2 split to use it. In any event, it topped out, for me, around 110ish dmg per tick towards the end of the dots.

Even if you assume taking maximize (for whatever reason) and slotted a 120 fire aug/item somewhere, thats only a few ticks of 300 dmg. Thats like maybe firewall level dps? Except its only 2/rest (or 5/rest if you do the one build which allows that)... and you HAVE to stay standing STILL... in the center of a group of mobs. Giving up the ability to move (cornerstone of the monk class, and requiring 18+ monk levels definitely makes it a monk centric ability) is tough.

So against a group of mobs its a firewall which makes you tank the entire group, and against a single mob its not really anything to write home about since it isnt making use of the AE portion. And in either event, the uses are so low that its just hard to justify taking it at the expense of something else... even if it did enough damage to be meaningful on EE (which right now it doesnt). Regardless of the "suicide on EE" issue which comes up standing still in the middle of a pack on EE, trading off a lot of play style for a lot of risk should payoff more than a firewall click, IMO, at any difficulty.

Long story short, I think more uses might be good (or maybe a +meditations per day enhancement in the monk trees instead of the fighter ones....), and it definitely needs a damage bump. Something where Henshin gives more meaningful Fire spellpower would be an okay starter (maybe each of the +vulernability strikes can also add +20 passive spell power... so like fire vulnerability also gives the monk fire spell power). That would also give casters a reason to splash into the "caster" monk tree. Or maybe just a bump on the base damage (cutting it from 4d10 to 2d6 was quite the cut, maybe go back to 4d10 or at least 4d6).

EDIT: Ok there are some extra meditations in Henshin, just didnt catch them before. Leaving the original paragraph there for context but even at 5/rest a Firewall clicky isnt all that. I mean how many casters run around epics with firewall being the go-to and then only standing still when using it. Its a tough sell to use it that way, especially on an 18+ monk where sourcing fire spell power is very tough and isnt adding to a whole line of spells or something, it needs to payoff more.

Just some thoughts. I also really appreciated a new monk option which some unique abilities instead of the same old thing weve seen. And after the "fixes" it kind of wound up as where theyre just so marginal that taking them is a terrible build idea for epic level play. Turn my sad panda frown upside down and give me the ability to actually light a room full of guys on fire.... fire which might hurt them enough I could see hp bars move. The first versions were cool since their dps was meaningful, hopefully it can go back that direction some. Thanks!

And while youre here, whats up with only having one Void ability at the top of Henshin? That makes it impossible for anyone except Tier 5 Henshins to use the force-light-force and force-dark-force combo mobs, that we currently get at level 5 if memory serves. I know this was brought up before, and adding a lower level force strike was said possible... that going to happen? Doesnt have to be like lowering Void 4... but maybe you can add back like "Basic Void" that does damage which scales like the regular ki strikes (so like, it advances with monk levels similar to the Animal Enhancements, pacing the damage from the regular strikes so up do 2d10 at 20 or whatever) a bit lower in another tree, so that those combos are available for use to builds other than Max Henshin.

Henshin abilities can't be meta'd, so the damage you do is set to tiny numbers.

See, the issue we have here is Henshin sports some neat castery abilities, but can also melee quite well. The problem is the caster abilities do not scale well- not even with a full fire spell power build. They're fun early, but running shurikens is better than using your 5 ki bolt, and cleaves are obviously much better than any other aoe you can use.