Remove the "Greater Weapon Focus" requirement for Kensai

[Teh_Troll]

I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

Make it so.

[Cernunan]

I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

Make it so.

[cdbd3rd]

This made me chuckle.

Also makes me wanna shoot it - but I'd be chuckling while disassembling it.


If it looks like an elf, acts like an elf, smells like an elf, PRANCES like an elf - it's an elf. Shoot it!

[Carpone]

Kensei needs to be consistent with all other enhancement trees. No other enhancement tree requires a feat with a minimum level higher than the tier of the tree. In this case, Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter level 8, but the enhancement requiring it is only tier 4 (requiring Fighter level 4). The enhancement system is already extremely complicated. Exceptions lead to confusion and confusion needs to be eliminated within game design.

Turbine could instead focus on making Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats meaningful. Change the Weapon Focus feats to +% hit, and Weapon Specialization feats to +% damage. Now it's worth taking 8 Fighter, not because we're 'forced' to.

[Qhualor]

I don't agree. Weapon focus lines is part of the Kensei specialization. It makes perfect sense to be required. It may be the only prestige that requires a feat, so I would say there is something wrong with the other prestige requirements and not Kensei.

[Teh_Troll]

You're not getting it. DC70 melee insta-kills isnt' ******** enough. This game needs to go full-******, that means DC 70 insta-kills with an ESOS.

Make it so.

[Dreppo]

I want to be able to use Quivering Palm with an Esos.

This is no more ridiculous of a request than monks having DC70 insta-kills in the first place.

Make it so.

There's this from the latest release notes:

"NEW The Monk Feat: Quivering Palm may now be used with Monk weapons"

Now I don't know if that means just the canonical monk weapons, or if it means any weapon you are centered with. If the latter, then your wish is granted, as it is possible to be centered with a greatsword.

[Cloista]

It isn't possible to take 'One with the Blade' and have Quivering Palm at the same time, as Quivering Palm is granted at Monk 15, while One with the Blade requires a previous enhancement with Greater Weapon Focus, which requires Fighter 8, which is what he's complaining about.

Personally, I think it's fine as is.

[DrawingGuy]

Think the blocker is Greater Weapon focus is 8 Fighter and Quivering Palm is 15 Monk. (slow typer - Cloista beat me to it)

But The_Troll is right... not enough of the advantages of being a pure monk has been given to Kensei fighter. Multi-class just being superior DPS along with also being superior CC (and superior saves with Pali splash) is not enough... it needs to have EVERY useful Monk ability within reach along with the Kensei power. Now that Quivering Palm is no longer a useless piece of junk stuck in the 30s DCs - 40s if you maxed Wis out, 15 Monk is worth it. That means we need to make all of Kensei available in the 1-5 reach (because who cares about the weak core?), and only that Greater Weapon Focus feat prevents that.

I'm still hoping hard that they seriously gate the PrE more strongly. 1-5 is just a joke... especially with core abilities being matched or bested in PrE trees.

As for considering Quivering Palm being OP - I'm of mixed opinion. I'm glad it has been brought into relevancy and to have a non arcane/divine be able to insta kill on demand (because really... SP isn't much of a limit with torc, con-op, halcyon, clickies, more easily farmed consumables, etc -- and Void Strike is a lottery ticket that few will buy with this coming update). Their (Arcane/Divine) gate, though, is that EE level DCs are not as easy to reach. But how would you make getting Quivering Palm an obtainable DC that is relevant to end game content yet takes work to reach? Monk levels stop at 20 while Epic levels count as Caster levels, so even turning 1/2 to full would put it's DCs far short. Can't build it up with past lives (meaning with the classic DC - new way here you can). My only real suggestion is to classify all Monk abilities (basically grouping finishers that have DCs and abilites like Quivering Palm, Shintao abilties, Touch of Death, etc together), and then make them boostable with feats, enhancements, and other items. Also adding 2 DCs to Monk abilities per Monk past life would help add a grind tick. This would allow a bit more gating on moves like Quivering Palm, and span out into the rest of the abilities that get shelved due to unuasably low DC saves... but of course also faces the most likely blocking issue of being so massive to implement (basically it would be a whole new mechanic). We'll see how it pans out... but I personally prefer the tip to the OP over the old useless.

[SirValentine]

Monk levels stop at 20 while Epic levels count as Caster levels, so even turning 1/2 to full would put it's DCs far short.

Epic levels do NOT count as caster levels. They should. They should count as caster levels for casters, Monk levels for Monks, Rogue levels for Rogues, etc., but they do not.

Certain EDs give a caster level increase only for certain specific classes. For example, a level 28 Shiradi Sorc only has caster level 20 (less if splashed), not 28 or even 25. In Draconic or Magister, they'd only be 25, still not 28. Epic Commoner levels are nothing but a few HP and +1 to skills.

And anyway, I'm not sure why you'd bring that up in regards to DCs. Caster level 28 or caster level 18, it doesn't effect DC at all.

[Qhualor]

Epic levels do NOT count as caster levels. They should. They should count as caster levels for casters, Monk levels for Monks, Rogue levels for Rogues, etc., but they do not.

Certain EDs give a caster level increase only for certain specific classes. For example, a level 28 Shiradi Sorc only has caster level 20 (less if splashed), not 28 or even 25. In Draconic or Magister, they'd only be 25, still not 28. Epic Commoner levels are nothing but a few HP and +1 to skills.

And anyway, I'm not sure why you'd bring that up in regards to DCs. Caster level 28 or caster level 18, it doesn't effect DC at all.

That's because technically epic levels are not character levels. We actually cap at 20 and not 25. If I was home where my PnP book is, I could quote it and it would explain better.

[SirValentine]

That's because technically epic levels are not character levels.

Yes they are. Both in pen & paper D&D, and in DDO. It's just that in DDO, they are crappy useless character levels instead of actual additional levels of your class like in pen & paper D&D.

If I was home where my PnP book is, I could quote it and it would explain better.

Try http://www.d20srd.org/
Specifically, try http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm