Iconics may not be friendly to new players....

[HatsuharuZ]

Compared to other MMOs, I think that DDO is complicated. Stacking rules? Multiclassing? Multiple Attribute Dependency? Metal-based Damage Reduction? Other games don't have these. Not to mention that it's a real-time combat system with no turns, and a multi-player one at that.

A new player coming through Korthos gets all these neat little tips, but a new player rolling up a Bladeforged, for instance, doesn't get any of those. Oh, the equipment you get is good, to be sure. Being able to roll up a level 15 character lets one get into the interesting content really quickly.

However, there is a huge gap, in terms of difficulty, between running Korthos on elite and running the Web of Chaos chain on elite. When completing Korthos, you discover things like 'traps can kill you' and 'how to find a spirit binder'. But the Lord of Blades just creates his paladin minion, raises him to level 15, then kicks him out of the house to fend for himself.

Imagine that you're starting to play this new game. You buy this AWESOME-looking character that you can level directly to level 15, you load up the game, follow the prompts and level up your new Bladeforged character. Then after you figure out which equipment in your inventory goes where in your equipment slots, you finish making your character and go outside. YOU ARE SO BADA**! ....until you try to run an elite quest (oh, that sounds fun!) with a bunch of guys who have these wing-like thingies around their names. Then, after you die a few times, a very annoyed party member tells you that you need to start healing yourself. You ask how you're supposed to do that, since you've run out of Lay on Hands charges. (or something like that. There are plenty of mistakes that can be made). You become really embarrassed, and when the quest is over, whether or not it's successfully completed, you get kicked out of the party. You decide that this is not fun at all. (and I doubt it would do anything for your self confidence, either). You wonder if maybe you want your money back, and if you should try playing another game.

Okay, the above paragraph is a bit generalized, exaggerated and definitely represents a worse-case scenario, but I hope that it illustrates my point.

At the very least, there needs to be an NPC in the Iconic character creation area who can explain basic game concepts to the new player, and possibly a training dummy. Really, this is a game that kids in middle school or even elementary school play. If you don't put instructions in front of them, they aren't going to looking for them, most likely.

[azrael4h]

Really, this is a game that kids in middle school or even elementary school play. If you don't put instructions in front of them, they aren't going to looking for them, most likely.

How many times do adults go for the instructions? I know I generally don't unless the UI is non-intuitive.

I do think you're right though, the Iconics are not a good choice for a new player. In face, I'd consider it a trap. Not because they're bad (I actually liked the PDK somewhat, needs a better weapon though). But because they're shoved exactly where they are; in the middle of the Heroic levels. And there's no tutorial like Korthos at that level for newbies

[Hendrik]

Compared to other MMOs, I think that DDO is complicated.

YOU ARE SO BADA**! ....until you try to run an elite quest (oh, that sounds fun!) with a bunch of guys who have these wing-like thingies around their names. Then, after you die a few times, a very annoyed party member tells you that you need to start healing yourself.

If your a brand new player and make an Iconic and then jump into Elites right away, you deserve to die, a lot.

[Charononus]

If your a brand new player and make an Iconic and then jump into Elites right away, you deserve to die, a lot.

And so did the original stoners, we never saw first life toons with a spiked turban and no fort when those were released right?

[Hendrik]

And so did the original stoners, we never saw first life toons with a spiked turban and no fort when those were released right?

And they learned the hard way.

As would any Iconic new to the game stepping into the hardest content setting available to them.

The hard learned lesson is the one most learn from.

[nibel]

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I can't see a brand new player that never EVER played any character going to the Store of their newly-installed game and spending a lot of real money to start at level 15.

[Wanesa]

iconics should start with spent action points on enhancements (according to choosen path) Last time i checked Lammania i had to spend all APs which can be little annoying for newbies.

[Hazelnut]

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I can't see a brand new player that never EVER played any character going to the Store of their newly-installed game and spending a lot of real money to start at level 15.

As a single data point, I'm a new player. Started about 3 or 4 weeks ago. I didn't know anyone else who plays DDO. After the first week, it looked to be worth sticking around. I debated trying a VIP for a few months but opted to buy $20 in Turbine Points since that gave me more flexibility in what to spend it on. I haven't spent much because I'm finding everything very expensive.

So, for me if Iconic cost more than about half of what I spent, it wouldn't even have been on my list (at least not the first month).

[Gaeb]

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I can't see a brand new player that never EVER played any character going to the Store of their newly-installed game and spending a lot of real money to start at level 15.

Just to comment - I haven't played DDO a lot (maybe a few weeks after Underdark launched, and a month or two recently) ... I have something like three dozen D&D sourcebooks, so the idea of D&D online is appealing to me.

I *HATE* low levels. I would buy a level 7, 12, 15 char in a heartbeat, and I can certainly afford to. I think this game's main failing is that its so newb unfriendly and has so much complexity (carry 100 cure serious/blindness/disease potions at minimum is not exactly what comes to mind as a given in D&D) and pain in the early game. People picking this up for fun just get slaughtered in early levels if they have any interest in grouping, since most of the groups are E BB BYOH and the average newb has no clue.

Anyhow. I guess my point is the game doesn't really get fun till levels 8-11ish, and it has a terrible stickiness factor with all the difficulty before that. Will people buy to 15? Hell, I'd ADVISE them to.

[Alistina]

Maybe I'm optimistic, but I can't see a brand new player that never EVER played any character going to the Store of their newly-installed game and spending a lot of real money to start at level 15.

^^^
This

IMO a big problem with an iconics is that they are thrown at a level where there are a lot of expenses in the game to keep questing. You need to buy pots, DR breakers from AH, scrolls, etc. And the iconics start with zero money (well, almost zero. You could get enough to atttend your 1st repair bill by selling pots you get in the creation quest lol). Now add to it that you are a new player/ or relatively new player. You wouldn't know where or how to farm gear and pp. While the starter items are fine, icons need to given some pp at creation. Not a lot, but say about 10k to let them buy some basic weapons (it is especially a big problem for multiclassers) and/or pots.

[HatsuharuZ]

If your a brand new player and make an Iconic and then jump into Elites right away, you deserve to die, a lot.

You are missing my point. My point in making that example was that it's very easy for a new player to make mistakes in this game. New players will make even MORE mistakes if they don't get any kind of guidance and their character is only able to run high-level heroic quests.

[Hendrik]

You are missing my point. My point in making that example was that it's very easy for a new player to make mistakes in this game. New players will make even MORE mistakes if they don't get any kind of guidance and their character is only able to run high-level heroic quests.

But we ALL made those mistakes when we started playing.

We made them then we learned from them. We took what we learned and applied it.

IMO, learning by mistakes made is better then someone hand holding you though the decision making process.

It is OK to make mistakes, just need to learn from them as in all things.


If you want those new players to learn, teach them NOT to start right off with a L15 Iconic. Start a L1 with a non-iconic Race and learn from there. Apply what is learned to creating an Iconic.

And what new player to DDO is going to plop down $30 right away for the second expansion and jump into the shallow end of the pool head first? I have not yet met the new player that is going to spend $30 right off the bat for our second expansion without even knowing if they are going to like the game or not.

I think your worry for this new player is misplaced.

[HatsuharuZ]

But we ALL made those mistakes when we started playing.

We made them then we learned from them. We took what we learned and applied it.

IMO, learning by mistakes made is better then someone hand holding you though the decision making process.

It is OK to make mistakes, just need to learn from them as in all things.


If you want those new players to learn, teach them NOT to start right off with a L15 Iconic. Start a L1 with a non-iconic Race and learn from there. Apply what is learned to creating an Iconic.

And what new player to DDO is going to plop down $30 right away for the second expansion and jump into the shallow end of the pool head first? I have not yet met the new player that is going to spend $30 right off the bat for our second expansion without even knowing if they are going to like the game or not.

I think your worry for this new player is misplaced.

I am worred since I have seen a few Bladeforged who have gone into a elite quests and gotten killed repeatedly. Not many, but a few. It was a massacre.

There are something that new players need to learn, which they do eventually learn going from levels 1-15. And some people are likely going to make their first toon an iconic, not realizing that a level 1 character running a level one quest is not the same as a level 15 character in a level 15 quest.

[PsychoBlonde]

Considering you have to pay to play Iconics, I don't think they're aimed at new players anyway. I think, personally, that they are aimed at existing players who are trying to get their friends to join the game. I even suggested making an "Iconic Box" that paying players can get to give to their friends that gives them a free Iconic character and maybe a couple of level 15-18 packs.

The reason why I suggest this is that I've tried more than once to get my friends and family to come play DDO with me, but they don't want to level a character all the way from 1-20. They're willing to play once in a while, but they don't want to start at level 1. Iconics would be a way for them to come play with me without having to start a brand-new baby toon from scratch (although there properly needs to be a caster iconic, either a sorcerer or wizard--or maybe not, caster classes tend not to multi as well as other classes).

If you look at it that way, a new person starting an Iconic character probably HAS somebody to guide them around. If it were a free-to-play option, yeah, you'd want to make it as newb-friendly as possible.

That, and spending enhancement points with the new system is pretty intuitive IMO.

[Qaliya]

If your a brand new player and make an Iconic and then jump into Elites right away, you deserve to die, a lot.

This may make you feel all nice and self-righteous, but what a new player will most often do in this situation is conclude (incorrectly) that the game sucks and go play a different one. Which hurts all of us -- it's not like DDO is swimming with new blood as it is.

I'm sure that Turbine put in these level-skipping features in the belief that they would encourage new players by allowing them to skip the early levels. But I agree with others that they are mostly detrimental to new players and to the game as a whole.

[FalseFlag]

Really, this is a game that kids in middle school or even elementary school play. If you don't put instructions in front of them, they aren't going to looking for them, most likely.

While I don't dispute the helpfulness of a guide, this statement tells me you must not know many kids, or the ones you do know aren't terribly bright. It's the older new players who need the guidance.

[Hawkwier]

Why would a new player at L15 jump right into elite Web of Chaos quests?

This thread seems to me to be based on a false assumption, and highly subjective perspective.

New players can and do die a heck of a lot in L1-4 normal content too, you know.

Iocnics improve choice for some folks - if you want to start at L15 with a strong character build and decent equipment, you can.

If you don't want to, you dont have to.

Great!

[Qaliya]

A new player on a level 15 who joins a group doing GH walkups on elite -- and let's be honest, that's often all there is on the LFM panel -- will probably get slaughtered. It's not a good way to introduce someone to a game.

[Zillee]

I dunno. I would expect to get slaughtered if I went into an elite quest. I wouldn't think 'this game sucks'. I'd think, okay I'll try that another time when I'm better at the game.

And if it puts off those who feel they should be able to cake walk all content when they are completely new to the game, going in at elite with a first life ungeared up toon ... then all the better. I would hate to see the game altered to make such things possible for the 'entitled' generation.

(get off my lawn! )

[Satyriasys]

I dunno. I would expect to get slaughtered if I went into an elite quest. I wouldn't think 'this game sucks'. I'd think, okay I'll try that another time when I'm better at the game.

And if it puts off those who feel they should be able to cake walk all content when they are completely new to the game, going in at elite with a first life ungeared up toon ... then all the better. I would hate to see the game altered to make such things possible for the 'entitled' generation.

(get off my lawn! )

These are my thoughts as well. They can see the difficulty selection when they enter the quest. I sure wouldn't try an elite difficulty in a game I just installed.