Divine might is now an insight bonus? Doesn't stack with insightful gear then....

[SisAmethyst]

Well this is a good point. I forgot to factor in the additional +3 to tactics fighters can get from stance. It doesn't change the original point, however, which is that Paladins can do alright compared to other melee classes when it comes to tactical DCs.

Dunno, maybe I missed it, but how you get all the feats like Improved Sunder which the Fighter get as bonus feat? Also you may take a WF or HOrc as a Fighter to even improve those more, but you most likely won't choose those races for a Paladin. Last but not least due to a wider stat distribution you may even start with a lower base STR compared to a Fighter.

Not sure, But my gut feeling say that Fighters are quite ahead in tactics then Paladins.

[honkuimushi]

Yeah because it works for your 12 fighter 6 monk 2 paladin build which is exactly who divine might is for now. Pure paladins do not have feats to really invest in the tactics without hurting their dps or other aspects of their build so really this all about multi class strength based paladins or fighters or other classes which seems kind of silly because that is such a small subset of paladins.

Well, to be fair, he might have to change it to a 12 Fighter/6 Paladin/2 Monk build since Divine Might requires turns, which you don't get until level 4 as a Paladin.

[SisAmethyst]

This statement is assumptive unless you are secretly referencing data about how many Paladins are pure class and how many aren't.

I agree that Paladins could use a couple bonus feats.

As much as I would like to see the relentless pure Paladin lobbying group succeed in hurting Paladin as a multiclass option, I would again point out that the developers can make it so that the tacticians and non tacticians are both happy by having Divine Might be a choice between a morale strength boost and untyped damage boost.

Well, if most Paladins are splash, than there is something very foul, as it is an indicator that a pure Paladin just suck bad ass. I would love to play a pure paladin and not some hybrid bastard build that uses the Paladin levels just for the saves, but actually kill everything ranged which has nothing anymore to do with the original.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool to create a combination like this and to see how it can perform. Same as in the past where every Ranger where actually a variation of the Exploiter build. But it is sad if the pure class isn't viable. Somehow I get the impression that you favour this change to DM because you yourself just play a splash that can heavy benefit from this.

And no, I disagree that a paladin should get a couple of bonus feats! A paladin shouldn't just be an other Fighter. The solution isn't to change an other gear, just because the malfunctioning gear named enhancement pass wasn't done right. If one has to fix something, then fix it on the root!

[bsquishwizzy]

Personally, I'd rather the Devs had done two things.

First, if they kept Divine Might closer to the pnp version (add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage) but sped up the casting time and extended the duration.

if you just simply extend the duration, you don't really need to extend the casting time.

[oradafu]

if you just simply extend the duration, you don't really need to extend the casting time.

No, it has to be both. The amount of time on Live that it takes to cast Divine Might far exceeds that of Rage and other "quick" damage buffs.

Divine Might needs the extension because it is the only General damage buff that Paladins get. All other special Paladin buffs for damage are mob specific, Evil with a side of either Evil Outsider or Undead. The announcement to merge KOTC with HOTD did not deliver the expected merger of doing damage to both types mobs. So there was nothing really new in the Paladin trees, unlike other classes; Paladins just got a few things repackaged.

[samthedagger]

I'm doing the math here and I am also seeing a serious flaw like the clear majority of posters. On the one hand, it frees up a +3 insightful strength slot. On the other hand, I have so many colorless slots for my paladin that slotting +2 insightful strength is good enough. The only good thing about this change was the change in duration to 120 seconds. It's not like paladins are overpowered or overplayed. On my server it is currently the 9th most popular pure class out of 13, and of the FTP classes it is 8th out of 9 (barely edging out the bard).

Give us Cha modifier to damage as a sacred bonus. That will put paladins into the "competitive" zone for DPS, but will hardly allow them to dominate or even out-compete in the DPS arena. It isn't like having self-healing makes them kings among tanks. At epic levels being able to twist in Rejuvenation Coccoon alone will take care of a large amount of your self-healing needs for all but the most demanding tanking situations (EE Fall of Truth and EE Lord of Blades are the only two I can think of for which Rejuvenation Coccoon alone cannot suffice). A Kensai with Rejuvenation Cocoon twisted in and fighting in Legendary Dreadnaught is almost as good of a tank with massively better DPS. Have an Exalted Angel toss Renewal or a quickened Heal (no metamagics needed) on the Kensai every now and then (assuming both Kensai and Paladin are equally well-geared) and the Kensai is definitely the better choice. But only the elitist of the elite put together EE raids and such with the assumption that your tank (when needed which is rare) is completely self-sufficient.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Well, if most Paladins are splash, than there is something very foul, as it is an indicator that a pure Paladin just suck bad ass.

This statement is assumptive unless you are secretly referencing data about how many Paladins are pure class and how many aren't.

I would love to play a pure paladin and not some hybrid bastard build that uses the Paladin levels just for the saves

But how do you really feel about multiclassing Paladin levels?

Somehow I get the impression that you favour this change to DM because you yourself just play a splash that can heavy benefit from this.

Self interest motivates the vast majority of the posts in these forums, yours included. Although I certainly did troll a little bit with my reactive statement about pure class Paladins, it should be noted that I support a Divine Might mechanic that supports more than one playstyle. I would like to get mine, but not at the expense of other people getting theirs.

Not sure, But my gut feeling say that Fighters are quite ahead in tactics then Paladins.

Only Stephen Colbert is allowed to talk about gut feelings, and only ironically.

Your arguments certainly don't lack for anger, but they are a bit vague. If there are specific changes that you support, you should voice your ideas.

Self interest motivates the vast majority of the posts in these forums...

This statement is assumptive unless you are secretly referencing data about how many posts in these forums are motivated by self interest and how many are not, but I see your point! You sir, are a Formidable Opponent.

[KKDragonLord]

The U18 version is this:
+8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

The U19 version is this:
Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.

All these arguments are invalid and full of Fail

Why Insight? There is no reason to change from Sacred to Insight at ALL.

"We removed the option of getting an insight bonus to Str on equipment so there is less gear you can benefit from and thats actually a good thing"

No, It isnt. It was absolutely unnecessary.

The slot required for +2insight to strength is a colorless slot, when it comes to slot saving this rationale makes even less sense.

[bennyson]

The U18 version is this:
+8 Sacred bonus to damage for one minute

The U19 version is this:
Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 120 seconds

The U18 version was not based off of Charisma nor gave a bonus to Strength, which is more universally useful than damage. Charisma can now be used to increase tactics DCs, and the change helps in some other less common situations (such as having enough strength to pull certain levers, etc.)

There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback), but any of details could be argued in any number of ways: The only certainty is that no particular version could please everyone. No change is guaranteed permanent in a living MMO, so this could be revisited, but we don't see it as definitely wrong if some item slots are freed up for Paladins who prefer to use Divine Might (or AP freed up for those who prefer the converse). We're pretty sure that item slot isn't going to go empty.

Making Divine Might an Insight bonus to STR is a bad idea, you knew it, we players knew it, and yet you went along with it anyway from the wrong feedback. Just how many, HOW MANY PLAYERS SAID "Devs, make Divine Might an Insight bonus to STR!" or something similar to this. Show us, Varg, where is the evidence of this so called feedback.

Paladins never, I repeat, NEVER had the STR of a Barbarian, and in some ways, a Fighter. (Remember PnP!)

What you could have done to Divine Might was this instead.

Divine Might
Channel Divinity: You gain a damage bonus based on your Charisma modifier for x amount of minutes. Also at rank 3, 1/3 of your Charisma modifier is added to the DCs of your Tactical Feats.

This would have been a better change to Divine Might than that nonstacking nonsense. Also if a player's Paladin cannot pull a high STR lever than they cant pull that lever, if they complain about not being able to pull a STR lever than that is THEIR problem, let that Barbarian pull it for you, it be like a temporary minion!

[bennyson]

I would love to play a pure paladin and not some hybrid bastard build that uses the Paladin levels just for the saves.

100% agreement hands down.

[jeromekwah]

How about divine might making the charisma modifier a stacking bonus to strength, capped by Paladin levels?

[lyrecono]

*jumps on bandwagon*

No to this nerf
Bad dev, bad dev!

Instead of more nerfs, why not buff non monk melee's?
allow for viable non splash EE melee's? (purely build wise)
how about designing melee gear that outperforms 5 year old stuff?

There were other options, but this is the important comparison from our perspective. The changes were based on player feedback, which is not always consistent between different players.

I could add that at various points in the design the bonus from Divine Might didn't stack with other Paladin abilities. Feedback made it clear something needed to change (feedback from both Lamannia and other feedback)

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
How about giving sources?

[Ivan_Milic]

Turbine again "fixing" something that is not broken.

[Drelak]

Me too!

(I mean this only hurts all my pure paladin builds. I do not want sacred defense, I want power attack.)

[bennyson]

How about divine might making the charisma modifier a stacking bonus to strength, capped by Paladin levels?

A damage bonus based on Cha mod is better than a bonus to STR, as it would be more appealing to builds that DO NOT USE STR!

(Think of Dwarves, Elves, and Charisma focused Purple Dragon Knights...)

[Ralmeth]

I've said it in other threads, and I'll say it again. The change in Divine Might to a strength bonus has allowed my Paladin to get stunning blow to work very reliably in epic hards (I don't play epic elite). Sure, I may have lost a couple of points of damage per swing compared to the old DM, but I've more than made up for it by getting a 50% bonus to damage vs. a stunned mob. Not to mention not getting attacked by said mob while stunned, and basic trip works pretty darn well too. I'm not happy that DM doesn't stack with insight bonus, but whatever. In general, this change has allowed my Paladin to become much better.

[bennyson]

I've said it in other threads, and I'll say it again. The change in Divine Might to a strength bonus has allowed my Paladin to get stunning blow to work very reliably in epic hards (I don't play epic elite). Sure, I may have lost a couple of points of damage per swing compared to the old DM, but I've more than made up for it by getting a 50% bonus to damage vs. a stunned mob. Not to mention not getting attacked by said mob while stunned, and basic trip works pretty darn well too. I'm not happy that DM doesn't stack with insight bonus, but whatever. In general, this change has allowed my Paladin to become much better.

*smacks hand in the face in pathetic idiocy*

BAH! I completely forgot about that!

I think my real problem is that it doesn't stack with gear, I thought Turbine's "policy" was to make character abilities stack with many pieces of gear as possible.