Lolwut???

[Philibusta]

Just finished reading a bunch of the stuff on the new Enhancement system. Two impressions:

1. Sooooo many different people are saying there is sooooo much wrong with sooooo many different things. It's kinda like the player base is saying, overall, as a whole, that this Enhancement Pass would be better off left for dead. At least until it's reworked oh six or twenty more times.

2. This mess is supposed to be easier for new players to understand? I've been playing DDO for about 2 and a half years (I know, the join date says longer...I took an involuntary absence for a while). This new thing is totally confusing. You have to unlock a tree to get what and then unlock another tree to get the other thing and then there are points spent requirements for racial core enhancements and.....what?!?!

The old (current) enhancement system is NOT hard to understand. At least for me, as a new player, it wasn't. This new system sounds like a maze a minotar couldn't find its way through.

[mrtweakin]

Perhaps reading complaints doesn't do the UI justice. The new interface for enhancements is much better and easier to understand than what currently exists. I've been playing for years and have played each class (many several times) and I still have to consult the wiki when looking at prereqs. That is no longer an issue.

There are specific issues with certain prestige/racial trees that people have. I have many myself. There are some trees we thought would be created or get a boost that did not. For example, paladins still stink. We as players need to spend time outlining what we don't like (and what we do like) in this regard. Hopefully some of it will get addressed in future updates.

Overall, it is different. There will be cool "new" builds. Some previously cool builds will not be cool anymore. Some builds won't change much at all.

But the interface and "confusion"? Much better and a non-issue as far as I can tell.

[jalont]

The one thing I can say for sure is that the new system will be easier for new players to understand. The UI is nice, and it took care of a problem that I've been facing since I started this game: The enhancement sheet is incredibly slow and laggy. I can lag out up two minutes simply by opening. Click show all, another two minutes. It makes leveling a chore. There's none of that in the new AI.

[Therigar]

I've noticed Philibusta that your posts are consistently negative. You appear unable to make transitions from whatever it is you have grown familiar with or to accept any change whatsoever. If the ability to give negative reputation still existed I would be sorely tempted to give most of your posts negative reputation for being intentionally negative and argumentative.

Your post is factually inaccurate. The number of people complaining is relatively small. The volume of their posts may be large but it is the same small group of posters. The majority of people posting contribute constructive observations about the enhancement pass in order to facilitate consistency, ease of use, or to suggest more intuitive relationships among the various enhancement choices. They take their role as testers seriously and observe when enhancements will seldom be selected (with rationale for why that is) or when they are over/under powered and over/under costed.

You have been told before that the enhancement pass creates more choice for players and rewards synergy. It is something that the majority of players have asked for for many more years than you've been playing -- even if we take your join date.

If you are having trouble understanding the upcoming changes then you should get the Lamannia client and invest heavily in the open beta. Adopt a positive attitude toward the changes and investigate how to build characters unfettered by the restrictions of the previous system.

People who understand what is going on are uniformly in favor of the enhancement pass because they understand that it opens up the game to a much larger number of builds and that this will have a positive impact on the excitement level among players.

[Postumus]

Your post is factually inaccurate. The number of people complaining is relatively small. The volume of their posts may be large but it is the same small group of posters. The majority of people posting contribute constructive observations about the enhancement pass in order to facilitate consistency, ease of use, or to suggest more intuitive relationships among the various enhancement choices.

Absolutely agree with this statement.

The old (current) enhancement system is NOT hard to understand. At least for me, as a new player, it wasn't. This new system sounds like a maze a minotar couldn't find its way through.

The current system is terrible. You have to allow every single enhancement to be shown to try to figure out the enhancement path you need to get to the enhancements you want. I've been playing for over 3 years and I still have to do this to find out which ancillary enhancements I need to take in order to get to certain prestige enhancements.

The MotU ED trees are utter simplicity by comparison.

[Philibusta]

Absolutely agree with this statement.




The current system is terrible. You have to allow every single enhancement to be shown to try to figure out the enhancement path you need to get to the enhancements you want. I've been playing for over 3 years and I still have to do this to find out which ancillary enhancements I need to take in order to get to certain prestige enhancements.

The MotU ED trees are utter simplicity by comparison.

Three words: DDO Character Planner. OK, two words and an acronym.

[Thrudh]

Three words: DDO Character Planner. OK, two words and an acronym.

Don't worry... someone will create a new DDO Character Planner for people like you...

Or maybe not... The new UI is so simple compared to the old one that maybe no one will bother to update the Character Planner.

[Missing_Minds]

The current system is terrible.

I disagree. The current system is very functional.

The current system interface is what is really horrid.

[hit_fido]

Don't worry... someone will create a new DDO Character Planner for people like you...

Or maybe not... The new UI is so simple compared to the old one that maybe no one will bother to update the Character Planner.

It is arguably simple in the context of Lamannia and the dojo and easy/free enhancement resets and instant level 20 characters. But outside of Lamannia it wont be any easier to plan out a build without constantly referring to the wiki and/or using a good planner tool that lets you look ahead. The new UI doesn't help players avoid making build mistakes or wrong assumptions (for example the 'divine might actually is useless at paladin level two' thing recently brought up) any better than the current. In fact in that respect it may be a little worse since the current UI provides the "show all" toggle, although that can be corrected in the new UI in some manner.

[Postumus]

I disagree. The current system is very functional.

The current system interface is what is really horrid.

Semantics. But fine, the interface is the worst part of tne system.

[Johnstone]

(for example the 'divine might actually is useless at paladin level two' thing recently brought up)

Along those lines, the new system makes it much easier for new players to gimp themselves in other ways too. New players won't know that things won't stack unless they say so (why does the threat reduction enhancement specifically say it won't stack while staff training and other things don't say a thing?).

[Maelodic]

Three words: DDO Character Planner. OK, two words and an acronym.

You shouldn't have to download a third party program in order to plan your character. You have to tab out of the game to make sure you're taking the right enhancements.

Although I believe the new enhancements are kind of strange, I do appreciate the added support for multiclassing as well as the attempt to introduce new styles into the game.

The implementation should get better as time goes on, they're being very cautious at the moment to make sure nothing is extremely broken.

[Sonos]

Three words: DDO Character Planner. OK, two words and an acronym.

If you are smart enough to figure out the old enhancement system, by golly, you're smart enough to figure out the new enhancement system. Why you won't even have to click on Unavailable to see what requirements you'll need for leveling your prestiges(in this case tiers). So relax, take a second and breathe. It would help to go to Lammania and mess around for awhile.

Most of the people that are disagreeing with you sat in your same boat. Trust me, I myself despised the new system in previous incarnations. It's not perfect and bug-free(welcome to DDO) but it has come a loooong way. Had you had access to closed beta you would see some very cynical people actually give props to the new system. They have really listened to feedback throughout and I didn't ever feel like we were being jerked around like the DM from the DnD cartoon, what was his name? (Eladrin? JK. It's not an insult, being mischievous and mysterious has it's place and it amuses me mostly.)

New people that don't know about planners won't have to worry too much, fear not the gimp, there are easy resets for each tree.

You'll find it has some nice surprises. Try before you cry I think is the motto.

[Philibusta]

The new enhancement system will be easier for new players to figure out, huh?

Mkay....maybe you can tell me then, how is, for example, a Fighter Kensai enhancement that's ML 4, yet has a Feat that's ML 8, as a prerequisite, NOT gong to be confusing to new players? And that's just one example of the giant cluster**** this thing is gonna be.

[ZzpxpzZ]

The new enhancement system will be easier for new players to figure out, huh?

Mkay....maybe you can tell me then, how is, for example, a Fighter Kensai enhancement that's ML 4, yet has a Feat that's ML 8, as a prerequisite, NOT gong to be confusing to new players? And that's just one example of the giant cluster**** this thing is gonna be.

Your example is entirely simple, not at all confusing. It may not make sense, but it is certainly not confusing. Most significantly though the new system is quite transparent, you can see whats coming up in your tree and your choices ahead of you without wading through a big list of trash. The old system, you need to already know what you are looking for in order to really see anything available to you.

Someone brand new to DDO without assistance from other people ALWAYS ends up with a very simple build on their first character right now, probably without even a prestige class, just a mishmash of whatever is infront of them. The new system at least even new players can see what their options are.

Of course there will still be some more complicated choices - this is DnD - if they got rid of all the complexity in the character design then that would be getting rid of the essence of DnD itself.

Still, this new system is perfectly fine outside of very specific things that should probably be adjusted one way or another or a few bugs, but DDO has always been rife with bugs.

What IS definitely the case with the new system however, is the fact that there are a lot of new potential builds, and there are a lot of old builds that used to work that will not work well under the new system. Things have changed drastically.

Effectively, for people who were not looking for changes and had their builds broken, they will be upset. For people who are able to effectively keep their build or some equivalent and have not been looking for change, they will probably not care much at all, or at least no more than the fact that its a hassle recreating their same characters.

For everyone else who feels that, as you may expect from a game so old, that a major change is due and they need some new choices, this is a great opportunity. New class build choices, new abilities, etc.

As far as the new system being complex, it really is not. It is however complex to read about I agree. Everywhere I see some text write up of the new enhancement system it is very complicated. But really, if you can handle epic destinies, you can handle this.

[oradafu]

Most significantly though the new system is quite transparent, you can see whats coming up in your tree and your choices ahead of you without wading through a big list of trash. The old system, you need to already know what you are looking for in order to really see anything available to you.

The new tree may let you see what's going on up the tree, but it doesn't let you see what's in rank 2 until you purchase rank 1 and then you repeat the process with rank 3.

The old system as bad as the UI was/looked, you knew exactly what you were getting (as long as the devs updated the actual wording of the enhancement properly).

That's not true with this system.

[zwiebelring]

To OP:
The new system sounds much like (did not see it on lama yet to get myself confirmation) the system used in Titan Quest. The trees are categorized and just need to do a lot of menu swap and reading.

Once you did that you will be able to build up stronger toons than exist now and cherry pick to insanity. Overall I expect a growth in the power of toons. Just look at the options with Monk-Archers now.

Sure the crowd has to boggle around and gamble a lot but it won't be hard to understand in general and after some gambling it won't be hard to build very powerful characters.

The negative tenor regarding the new enahcnement layout is more about the overhaul itself when people just wanted a better UI. I am certain the new enhancement pass will improve your and my game experience . And since I like versatility I don't fear the future.

p.s.:
Since you can reset the APs currently on live you might be forced into skilling one tree completely, read what's going on, then reset and skill another one asoasf. I sincerly hope there will be a solution to the mentioned 'cannot read till unlocked' issue. That may be indeed the bigegst problem but does not mean the whole enhancement system is weaksauce.

Anyway the character planner tool for new enhancements is in progress, so I stay relaxed and eat bacon.

[Therigar]

....maybe you can tell me then, how is, for example, a Fighter Kensai enhancement that's ML 4, yet has a Feat that's ML 8, as a prerequisite, NOT gong to be confusing to new players?

Before I try to explain it I need to know if that is in fact the case. In most situations the feat prerequisites for enhancements have been eliminated. So, I'd want to be sure first of all that this really is the case and it isn't just a situation of people knowing the old system so well that they presume the same prerequisites exist in the new one.

Best example I have at the moment is a past discussion on Tempest. Tempest no longer requires dodge/mobility/spring attack. Players were failing to note this -- or that because of it they no longer needed to build with minimum 13 DEX.

OTOH, if it is factual and there is a ML8 feat prerequisite then the tree should be altered to push the enhancement further up. This is a discussion being held elsewhere regarding the placement of DM in the paladin tree. Logically speaking players should not be given enhancement choices that they cannot benefit from at their current level. Doing so means players will by-pass enhancements in order to get what they can use and then be forced to reset enhancements when they have met the prerequisites.

That is poor design by Turbine. But, it does not mean that the changes overall are bad -- it just means that in some specific places the decision-making by developers is less than optimal.

[FlaviusMaximus]

OTOH, if it is factual and there is a ML8 feat prerequisite then the tree should be altered to push the enhancement further up. This is a discussion being held elsewhere regarding the placement of DM in the paladin tree.

Yes, the enhancement should be pushed up to the 8th tier...come on now. A more elaborate tooltip is all that is needed to clear up any confusion with these enhancements.

As for the Divine Might discussion, a level of Cleric or an epic destiny twist grants Turn Undead regardless of Paladin level.

[FalseFlag]

People who understand what is going on are uniformly in favor of the enhancement pass

This quoted bit above? At best, it's a misunderstanding or misstatement. At worst, it's a straight up lie, but either way, it's amazingly inaccurate. An awful lot of us fully understand what's going on and are not in favor. You should not presume to speak for anyone other than Therigar. Doing so makes you look foolish.