DoS Paladin

[Ormindo]

Hullo everyone,

I currently have a damage-dealing Paladin who has done some epic content. I have a friend who wants to start playing DDO, and I wanted to roll a palatank. I would have TR'ed into a tank but I do not have enough tokens atm and I don't really want to keep him waiting.

So the idea was to roll a 32 points DoS human paladin, using bastard sword & shield (I am aware khopesh is better, but I'll never use these weapons,
they absolutely do not fit my paladin style).

In terms of items, I guess I will have time to think, but so far here's what I thought :

Level 1 :

Strength : 15
Dexterity : 8
Constitution : 18
Intelligence : 8
Wisdom : 8
Charisma : 15

I'd spend all my leveling points into strength.
I am aware dex is needed for AC, but as much as I'd like to, I'm having issues knowing how much dex I'd really need.

In terms of feats :

Shield Mastery
Toughness
THF
Bastard sword proficiency
Improved critical : slashing
ITHF
GTHF
Improved shield mastery

Still have to ponder a bit about enhancements, but that's what I thought of.

Thoughts and comments would be welcome.

[cdbd3rd]

Given the rash of internet connectivity issues recently, I first read that as a "Denial of Service" pally.




Srry. carry on. Just thought it was amusing.

[Sardonica]

I would take Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave in place of ITHF, GTHF and Impr. Shield Mastery, but that's just me. That will trade off some defense for offense, and it is nice to have cleaves when you run out of your non-renewable attacks. Tanks really need more offense, otherwise all the hate multiplication in the world will not help. You will also unlock Overwhelming Crit.

[Inoukchuk]

I would take Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave in place of ITHF, GTHF and Impr. Shield Mastery, but that's just me. That will trade off some defense for offense, and it is nice to have cleaves when you run out of your non-renewable attacks. Tanks really need more offense, otherwise all the hate multiplication in the world will not help. You will also unlock Overwhelming Crit.

I recently TR'd into a S&B pally and so far am kicking serious butt. Personally I splashed 2 monk to get evasion and 2 feats since pally is very feat starved. I can confirm that PA, cleave, GC are IMO the best feats a melee can take, especially one that only uses 1 weapon (THF or S&B). I have him up to level 11 and have only pugged a few times, but so far nobody has out killed me, and the only person that came close was an experienced (TR) barb. He's not currently geared for AC, though I could slap some heavy armor on him and tank brilliantly (personally I find evasion more useful most of the time).

I don't have it in front of me, but I believe for stats I did:
str: 18
dex: 10
con: 16 (possible I lowered this to increase dex)
int: 10
wis:8
cha: 14

Now, I have 36 pts and +4 tomes to all stats, so that may change your planning a bit. Here is feat progression:
1) D-axe prof, shield mastery
2-monk) PA
3) cleave
3-monk) THF
6) GC
9) imp crit
12) ITHF
15) toughness
18) ISM
21) OC
24) GTHF

A lot of people take toughness at level 1, or at least early, but I've found it to be entirely unnecessary to do that. You'll have good HP anyway. The damage output when you pick up cleave and GC is VERY noticable... like night an day. I was killing whole groups in 2 swings. I wouldn't change the level 1-9 feat order, but the next 3 can be juggled. Of course being a TR helps with some equipment, but 90% of what I've used to this point is crafted or BTA (like charged gauntlets, stalwart trinket, etc).

[unbongwah]

Caveat: the Enhancement overhaul may well render all of this moot.

As you've probably realized, the toughest part of making a pally tank is the feat shortage, although the strain on stat pts is a close second. Picking the right mix of feats depends very much on your build priorities.

Some general advice:

• Pure or multi-classed? Pure gets you the capstone, splashing gets you extra feats. I prefer pal 18 / monk 2 for the two extra feats + Evasion; F2Pers can go with ftr splash instead. [I'm also experimenting with a BF pal 18 / ftr 1 / wiz 1 build; the wiz splash lets me add Quicken + Repair I enh for better self-repairs.]
• Every melee build should have at least Power Atk & Improved Crit (usually slash). Every S&B tank should have Shield Mastery + ISM for the PRR & doublestrike bonuses; w/Legendary SM you'll have +15% doublestrike +25 PRR w/hvy shield (more when in stance). That leaves 5 to 8 feats free for other things, depending on race and whether you splashed.
• Cleaves vs glancing blows: CL+GC are better for AoE DPS vs mobs, the THF chain is better for single-target DPS (i.e., boss fights).
• Tanking (S&B) weapons: b.swords are your best choice if you have the full THF chain; without it, you might be better off with scimitars or rapiers for the larger crit profile and to save a feat.
• Metamagics: if you want focus on self-heals and find LoH isn't enough, Quicken + Max and/or Emp Heal are obvious choices. Max provides more oomph to your CSWs; but Emp Heal will boost Rejuvenation Cocoon (if you get that far into ED grinding).

So for a human pal 18 / monk 2 which focused on DPS, I would take (not in order): Power Atk (monk 1), Toughness (monk 2), Shield Mastery & ISM, IC:Slash, b.sword, THF x3, Cleave & GC, and Overwhelming Crit (12 feats total).

[Therigar]

What unbongwah said.

Note that the NDA on the enhancement pass has been dropped and the Lamannia portion of the forums is open now to everyone. The open beta of the upcoming material is about to start.

I highly recommend that people NOT settle on anything build-wise at the moment but that they take a very close look at the Lamannia forums and ask specific questions about the upcoming changes. I expect the builders out in the community to start posting builds soon enough.

One thing I'm sure about, most current builds will undergo serious revision or be made obsolete.

Best advice right now is this: Don't paint yourself into a corner, leave room for modifications and rebuilds. The biggest thing this means is limit yourself to 1 or 2 classes at the most on whatever your current build is -- because 3 class builds are going to be painful to redesign.

[Ormindo]

I am planning on going pure human paladin, if that makes things a bit clearer.

So from what I get, I must get the 3 SM feats, the 3 THF feats, Power strike and IC : slashing ? That means I'd get stuck without the bastard sword proficiency...

[unbongwah]

I am planning on going pure human paladin, if that makes things a bit clearer.

Pure human pallies get 10 feats: 1 human + 7 heroic + 2 epic. When the lvl cap is raised to 28, we'll all get one more feat @ lvl 27. So, plan accordingly.

So from what I get, I must get the 3 SM feats, the 3 THF feats, Power strike and IC : slashing ? That means I'd get stuck without the bastard sword proficiency...

Legendary Shield Mastery isn't a feat, it's an Unyielding Sentinel ability - and a no-brainer for any S&B tank, IMHO.

Here's one example of a pure pally tank. As you can see, she doesn't even become a DoS until at least lvl 12; until then, she plays like a typical falchion-wielding HotD pally. If you prefer more of a DPS focus in late-game, take b.sword and THF x3 for the lvl 15-24 feats; lvl 27 can be either Toughness or Overwhelming Crit.

[Ormindo]

Oh I was totally not aware of the feats you got after level 20 (I kinda quit playing when Demonweb released).
I'll spend more time in the planner then, thanks for the tips.

One last question - most of you talked about feats, shouldn't I tweak my stats also ? I fear I'd need to raise dex but I do not know by what amount, nor what to lower.

EDIT : Looking at feats I think it'll be (in a random order)
Toughness
SM
ISM
Bastard sword
THF
ITHF
GTF
Improved critical

Power attack
Extend spell

[unbongwah]

One last question - most of you talked about feats, shouldn't I tweak my stats also ? I fear I'd need to raise dex but I do not know by what amount, nor what to lower.

Stat priorities on a pally tank are: STR > CHA > CON > DEX with WIS & INT usually being dumped. You hit WIS 14 w/+6 WIS item; the only reasons to bump up INT are extra skill pts and/or you plan to take Combat Expertise.

One change in the Enhancement overhaul is the base CHA pre-req for Divine Might has been dropped, so this is a little less important than it was in the past. But rather than being a static dmg bonus, it's now a bonus to STR equal to your CHA modifier, so you'll still want high CHA.

On a 32-pt pure pally tank, I'd probably start with STR, CON, CHA @ 16, with the last 2 pts going into INT; lvl-ups into STR, ofc. Since you'll presumably be wearing hvy armor, your MDB will be capped, so there's not much call for higher base DEX; and Divine Grace helps out your Reflex saves.

As for feat order, that largely depends on your playstyle. E.g., if you want to go S&B immediately, I would front-load the Shield Mastery feats. But, as others will tell you (and I agree), there's not much call for serious tanking for the first several levels, so it makes more sense to focus on DPS first.

[Ormindo]

I'll be trying that out then, thanks again.