An Epic Elite 32-Point Build Monk?

[TheKeeper1981]

Oryara Kenna Kanja of Khyber http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/khyber/Oryara/ is my first monk toon, created back in 2009, as well as the toon I prefer to play, despite the scattering of alts I created. I haven't TRed her because I enjoy the idea of having a 32-point build character that can run with TRs and, for the most part, hold her own. Her build is largely guided by the Rockan' Robin build https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...t=Rockan+Robin , as the philosophy of a balanced monk that can play multiple roles, at need, really appeals to my own style of play.

So far, I've been able to successfully do the three Eveningstar chains for CitW on EE, with very few problems, as long as I made sure to listen to the party leader and not do patently stupid things (which I have a tendency to do, every now and then, I'll admit). I've also been able to successfully run a few EE PoP quests, as well, again, with very few problems, as far as I was able to see.

However, when I questioned my friend about the possibility of trying an EE Tor run with him and his friends, he was fairly hesitant at the idea, as beating down the dragons on EE is, if you'll pardon the pun, a different beast, entirely, especially when the subject came to defeating the blue dragon and giant partner. As he states the situation, the party needs to have an insanely high amount of DPS to take the blue dragon down, quickly, as the electric attacks will eventually ramp up higher and higher, until, even with resists, the damage can no longer be absorbed.

So I thought about this puzzle, for a while, and I was able to arrange things such that I can increase my electrical absorption by a good deal, as I pulled an epic normal ring of the djinn from the chain end reward, recently. I've also made a green steel item that gives me enough spell points that, when twisted into GMoF, allows me to cast energy sheathe: electric on myself. I'm currently working on obtaining a ring of shadows that will help make me much more difficult to hit.

However, my friend still seems hesitant, as he is unsure of whether or not I can hit hard enough, fast enough, to help take down the blue dragon. Frankly, I'm unsure, as well. I have gloves of titan's grip to increase my strength, and I'm also able to cast Tenser's Transformation, as well. So I have two sources of increasing my strength, and hence, my damage output. I also have a set of fully upgraded Calomel Wraps that have a ruby of superior frost slotted (I spend a lot of time doing Epic VoN 5/6). I would be in earth stance for the extra hit points and the critical multiplier. My build also makes use of Whirlwind for the +4 weapon damage it allows, as, unlike Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, it works with my unarmed monk. For my epic destiny, I use GMoF, because I seem to do better in it, than in the other destinies, likely due to Drifting Lotus and EiN being such a great help in dealing with a crowd. I would have Brace for Impact, Legendary Tactics, and Energy Sheathe: Electricity twisted into this destiny, bringing my fortification up to 140%, lending an extra +6 DC to my stuns, and giving me additional electric resistance, respectively. But, again, my friend is unsure if that is enough.

So, I am stumped: exactly how can I achieve the high DPS needed to be able to confidently run EE Gianthold Tor? Is it even possible for a 32-point monk build? My friend is a big fan of the cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical, and Primal Avatar combination that allows for a lot of high critical output (x5, I think he said?), but there's simply no way I can obtain the base 23 strength without crippling my wisdom, which my stuns and ki strikes rely on. If I'm doing my calculations properly (and it's a big possibility that I'm not--I know my grasp of the game mechanics is still confused, every now and then), the best I can hope for is a x4 critical multiplier if I stay in Earth Stance and use PA as my destiny for the EE run. But even then, I still find myself wondering if that's really enough?

Therefore, I'm hoping that more experienced and game-mechanics-savvy players can give me a bit of advice on how to work with what I have, in order to run Epic Elites, and, specifically, Epic Elite Tor. Thank you, very much and in advance, for whatever help you can give me.

[TeacherSyn]

Others might disagree, although no one has yet bothered to give their thoughts to you before now, but my experience in EE is simply to survive long enough to dish out any kind of damage.

You have many of the ED skills I've trained into my tanker Monk, who almost never leaves Grandmaster of Earth stance, has 104 AC, 62 PRR and 50 stunning DC. The survival stats, in my opinion, for EE are miss-chance and fortification effects: Dodge (18%), Concealment (20%), Incorporeality (10%) and Evasion, with Brace for Impact from Unyielding Sentinel for 140% minimum fortification (I have reserves). The Ring of Shadows works great here. I normally kick GMoF as the dominant and twist Legendary and Unyielding skills as required. I also spam Healing Ki like crazy with a nearly 400% amplification that returns 2-5 HP a punch and 100-140 HP per 10 seconds. I don't have Whirlwind on this character, just Cleave/Great Cleave, but I know the joys of a dervish, unarmed Monk with others in my dojo.

The good news is that she's practically unkillable in anything less than EE. In EE, however, I think it's really a matter of stun or be killed, a 50+ DC with Stunning +10s on (the Grave Wrappings are most people's favorite since you can also neg-level for more effective stun attempts) is the winner. Lynncletica's STR is strong but not as high as I'd like 'cause I, too, wanted to move a bit more DEX in for Reflex and WIS, relying on any STR items that I can add.

But this is a 34-point build I use. I think you can still make it happen, at the cost of putting a little less CON on that character and shoving it into WIS and/or DEX. I assume you'll use any tomes you can get, too.

So, my logic is, if I cannot raise myself, I lower my enemies. The Grave Wrappings help here, but before I attack, I pull enemies to fight as few at a time as I can. It's not the one I'm fighting that often kills me.

Another consideration for more DPS: Being in Legendary Dreadnought mode gives the boost you need, especially if you have a Master's Blitz handy, which gives an insane amount of stacking damage, but works best as an escalating mob cleaner to stack the damage, else the Moment dies off. Some of that ED's effects don't work unarmed, but enough do for some happiness. If you're like me, however, I prefer the GMoF mode for maximum damage and defensive balance and some crowd control.

I don't think it's the Blue Dragon you'd worry about, but the White, whose cold debuff tries to freeze you solid, making melee a pain. For Blue and Green, I'm usually too dodgy, ghostly or evasive to worry about their secondary effects. Avoiding getting my head bitten off is a different matter.

So, to sum up, survival over punching hard and fast. Can't punch if you're dead. By the time you're in EE, much of the DPS is implicit. Can't speak for the PA destiny, having no experience there, but that's why my self-heal amp is crazy-high.

[TheKeeper1981]

Others might disagree, although no one has yet bothered to give their thoughts to you before now, but my experience in EE is simply to survive long enough to dish out any kind of damage.

You have many of the ED skills I've trained into my tanker Monk, who almost never leaves Grandmaster of Earth stance, has 104 AC, 62 PRR and 50 stunning DC. The survival stats, in my opinion, for EE are miss-chance and fortification effects: Dodge (18%), Concealment (20%), Incorporeality (10%) and Evasion, with Brace for Impact from Unyielding Sentinel for 140% minimum fortification (I have reserves). The Ring of Shadows works great here. I normally kick GMoF as the dominant and twist Legendary and Unyielding skills as required. I also spam Healing Ki like crazy with a nearly 400% amplification that returns 2-5 HP a punch and 100-140 HP per 10 seconds. I don't have Whirlwind on this character, just Cleave/Great Cleave, but I know the joys of a dervish, unarmed Monk with others in my dojo.

The good news is that she's practically unkillable in anything less than EE. In EE, however, I think it's really a matter of stun or be killed, a 50+ DC with Stunning +10s on (the Grave Wrappings are most people's favorite since you can also neg-level for more effective stun attempts) is the winner. Lynncletica's STR is strong but not as high as I'd like 'cause I, too, wanted to move a bit more DEX in for Reflex and WIS, relying on any STR items that I can add.

But this is a 34-point build I use. I think you can still make it happen, at the cost of putting a little less CON on that character and shoving it into WIS and/or DEX. I assume you'll use any tomes you can get, too.

So, my logic is, if I cannot raise myself, I lower my enemies. The Grave Wrappings help here, but before I attack, I pull enemies to fight as few at a time as I can. It's not the one I'm fighting that often kills me.

Another consideration for more DPS: Being in Legendary Dreadnought mode gives the boost you need, especially if you have a Master's Blitz handy, which gives an insane amount of stacking damage, but works best as an escalating mob cleaner to stack the damage, else the Moment dies off. Some of that ED's effects don't work unarmed, but enough do for some happiness. If you're like me, however, I prefer the GMoF mode for maximum damage and defensive balance and some crowd control.

I don't think it's the Blue Dragon you'd worry about, but the White, whose cold debuff tries to freeze you solid, making melee a pain. For Blue and Green, I'm usually too dodgy, ghostly or evasive to worry about their secondary effects. Avoiding getting my head bitten off is a different matter.

So, to sum up, survival over punching hard and fast. Can't punch if you're dead. By the time you're in EE, much of the DPS is implicit. Can't speak for the PA destiny, having no experience there, but that's why my self-heal amp is crazy-high.

Thank you, so much, for taking the time to so thoroughly answer my questions! I, too, prefer a monk that can survive long enough to actually get the chance to deal damage, at all, so that was the direction I decided to go for Oryara. And, in fact, I had found your blog and had used it as a guide for where I wanted to go with her, so I'm doubly happy to actually have your direct feedback on the idea of survivability over DPS

Running quests on Epic Hard with my husband and my best friend, I've found that I prefer using Stunning Fist, Kukan-Do, Drifting Lotus, and Everything is Nothing for crowd control, and I doubted my play style will change that significantly, when playing quests on Epic Elite, so when I Lesser Reincarnated Oryara, I made sure to put as many points into wisdom, as possible, since my abilities hinged on it, using tomes and items to make up for my lower strength and constitution stats. Twisting in Legendary Tactics and Brace For Impact for the higher DCs to my stuns and the extra fortification, respectively, became a must, to the point where having them simply is not optional, for me. The third slot, I had decided, would have either Improved Combat Expertise or Energy Sheathe: Electric, depending on need. Though, in practice, I found I had a tendency to forget to switch between them, so I am experimenting between simply having Energy Sheathe as my third twist, and making a habit of simply reminding myself to check my twists, before going into a quest. Finally, I've done my best to make up for any shortcomings Oryara may have by trying to play as smart as possible: as you said, pulling things to isolate single enemies is often the best way to handle things, as it is often the one you are not fighting who will take you down. In addition, when in a PuG, I always make sure to be clear about what the party leader needs of me, as good coordination between party members seems to be another key factor to a smooth and successful run.

I was still fairly unsure of myself, though, until a couple of nights ago, when I finally did get the opportunity to do Return to Gianthold Tor on Epic Elite. And I'm thoroughly pleased to say that I did quite well, with the group smoothly taking down all three dragons, with very few problems! I seemed to hold my own, well enough--or, at least, no one complained, and I even managed to earn my very first Epic Elite loot. Overall, I'm quite satisfied with Oryara's performance, during that run, and I was able to answer my own question: Yes, a 32-point build monk is fully capable of playing, surviving, and being useful on Epic Elite quests. ^^

[Wipey]

65 ( 70 preferrably )+ Stun, 20+ dodge, Ghostly if not dark, blurry, some prr ( 14 aug, 15 Planar Focus preferrably ), few displace clickies and you're good to go.
Cleric dilly, cocoon for self hjealing. Be active with Lotus/ Petals. Improved deception somewhere if you can.

In Tor, stun the hell out of giants, don't get surrounded, everybody LOVES EiN on skellies before the portals !

[ArcaneArcher52689]

one thing i'd just like to point out,
the earth stance crit multiplier increase isn't necessarily better dps than windstance (as long as you can survive the -2 con)

assuming your monk is hasted, so the speed increase doesn't matter, a monk in earth stance will have a x3 instead of an x2 - WITH no OC.

that is 1.5x increase in damage, 10% of the time (19/20 only). So, you're doing 1.5x damage on one strike 10% of the time (keep in mind, no OC), or a 50% increase in damage, 10% of the time. Which actually comes out to a 5% damage increase.

Now, let's look at the 10% doublestrike. That's a 10% chance to deal 2x damage on a strike. Or 100% increased damage 10% of the time, which is actually 10% increase in damage.

Now, someone will probably say i should factor in OC, well if I factor in OC, the offensive benefits of earth stance DECREASE!

because when you go from an x3 to an x4, you only gain 33% more damage on those critical strikes. So unless you have something where doublestrike doesn't function (like a bow), you're almost ALWAYS better off in grandmaster wind stance. At least offensively. Now, if you want the PRR and AC, then earth stance helps.


Sorry, but it always bothers me when people say that the crit multiplier on earth stance is better than windstance doublestrike.

[TheKeeper1981]

one thing i'd just like to point out,
the earth stance crit multiplier increase isn't necessarily better dps than windstance (as long as you can survive the -2 con)

assuming your monk is hasted, so the speed increase doesn't matter, a monk in earth stance will have a x3 instead of an x2 - WITH no OC.

that is 1.5x increase in damage, 10% of the time (19/20 only). So, you're doing 1.5x damage on one strike 10% of the time (keep in mind, no OC), or a 50% increase in damage, 10% of the time. Which actually comes out to a 5% damage increase.

Now, let's look at the 10% doublestrike. That's a 10% chance to deal 2x damage on a strike. Or 100% increased damage 10% of the time, which is actually 10% increase in damage.

Now, someone will probably say i should factor in OC, well if I factor in OC, the offensive benefits of earth stance DECREASE!

because when you go from an x3 to an x4, you only gain 33% more damage on those critical strikes. So unless you have something where doublestrike doesn't function (like a bow), you're almost ALWAYS better off in grandmaster wind stance. At least offensively. Now, if you want the PRR and AC, then earth stance helps.


Sorry, but it always bothers me when people say that the crit multiplier on earth stance is better than windstance doublestrike.

I prefer wind stance to the other stances, myself, even with the extra critical multiplier that earth stance offers. This being said, I do love the extra survivability that earth stance offers, especially when combined with the Sun Soul bonus effects, so I've developed the habit of going wind stance with my Epic Spare Hand equipped to take down trash as quickly as possible, then switching to my Sun Soul belt and earth stance, to ensure I can survive the boss fights long enough to land a few punches. So the majority of the time, I'm in air and earth stance, but I'm still trying to work in switching over to the fire stance while wearing the Sun Soul set if I need any kind of healing, quickly, as well as restoration, as I've found that the fire stance bonus effect is the only stance effect that doesn't have a 20 sec limitation on it, meaning that it will proc with every confirmed 20 I roll. Certainly, cure moderate wounds isn't much, in and of itself in endgame content, but cure moderate wounds AND a restoration effect applied faster than I can drink my Silver Flame potions is quite useful to me, so I really want to take advantage of this. When I need as much boost to my wisdom, as possible, usually when I'm about to let loose with Everything is Mothing, I'll switch over to water stance and put on my air/water alchemical wraps.

I love flexibility in practically everything I do, so the monk's ability to switch stances, depending on the circumstances and needs, meshes well with my personality. Yet, even after 4 years of playing this game, I'm still finding new and fun ways to increase my monk's versatility. I really, really love my monk. ^^

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Oh, right! I started out with some kind of point, which is that I agree that wind stance is just as good of a choice as earth stance for DPS--as long as you can survive the -2 to constitution. When you need the survivability, though, earth stance is a very good choice to fall back on, yes!