Dex to hit and damage - its atrap

[Teh_Troll]

One Fully upgraded Balizarde and one Unupgraded Balizarde Sobrien permanently helpless (overwhelming force lock) Repeated test 5 times best time was 28 seconds worst time was 34 seconds. Ranger 20.

Not sure giving 4-8 seconds on a Sobrien beatdown is worth giving up 30% healing amp, but good to know.

[Carpone]

Math.

I was talking about a 20 ranger, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Post your calcs, please.

[Grailhawk]

Post your calcs, please.

Not his but here are mine.

TLDR don't want to look at Math. A pure 20 Ranger attack more with there off hand then there main hand DEX is added fully to both main and off hand. There is not enough STR to make up for the lower bonus.

Dex
18 Base
07 Level Up
05 Tome
11 Item
01 Ex Item
03 Insightful Item
01 Race
04 Class
02 Ship
02 Yugo
54 Total (22)

STR
18 Base
07 Level Up
05 Tome
11 Item
01 Ex Item
03 Insightful Item
01 Race
02 Class
03 Destiny
02 Ram's
05 Primal Scream
02 Ship
02 Yugo
62 Total (26)

Base Damage
08 Weapon Enchantment
02 Ship
02 Rams Might
06 Fury Innates
04 Claw Set
10 Favored Enemy
05 Power Attack
04 Tempest TWF Enhancements
41 Total

Damage Effects
4d6+16 Sneak Attack
2d6 Bleed Ravagers Set
3d8 Bleed Balizarde
1d12 Tunnel Vision
2d6 Acid in Red Slot
9.25 Sense Weakness
73.25 Avg Total

So STR is realistically about 8 higher then DEX maybe you can get 2-4 more with out looking at short term unsustainable clickies.

Pure Ranger will have 10% Doublestrike and 35% Off-hand Doublestrike assuming Haste and Haste Boost that's 133.32 swings per minute.

146.652 Main-hand attacks
179.982 Off-hand attacks
326.634 Attacks

So For DEX we are at
2.5[1d8]+63 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
0.65(74.25) + 0.60(84.25) + 0.40(84.25) + 0.95(73.25) = 202.10 Average Damage per Hit

202.10*326.634 = 66012.7314
or
1100.2 DPS

For STR we are at
Main 2.5[1d8]+67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
0.65(78.25) + 0.60(88.25) + 0.40(88.25) + 0.95(73.25) = 208.70 Average Damage per Main hand Hit

Off 2.5[1d8]+54 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
0.65(65.25) + 0.60(75.25) + 0.40(75.25) + 0.95(73.25) = 187.25 Average Damage per Off hand Hit

208.70 * 146.652 = 30606.2724
187.25 * 179.982 = 32801.7195
30606.2724 + 32801.7195 = 63407.9919
or
1056.8 DPS

The above math is done with a human because that's whats in the spreadsheet I use that generate all those numbers (and I don't have the time to update it and change it to an Elf). Human has the issue where it can not get DEX added to damage for bows only Elfs can over come that. But this shows that a DEX based Ranger will have more Melee DPS then a STR based Ranger. That means to me that the Elf DEX Rangers are at least close enough to the STR based Humans we have been running to make them viable.

[Teh_Troll]

<Stuff>.

Did you include the +4 damage/swing from Elf Racials?

I'm curious as to how this plays with HV damage-boost added in and stuff like that, next Lamania round I'll TR something into a pure human 20.

[Xyfiel]

Your math is using the assumption the Tempest capstone gives 25% off hand on top of the +10%/+10% from the other cores when in fact it is +25% total.
10% chance...
An additional 10% chance...
You now have a +25% chance...
80+25=105%

I made the same mistake at first but realized it didn't make sense to have more off hand nor such a big jump. It should be reworded.

The other issue is the alternative stat to damage on one handers and thf both being 1x. This is a bug. It wouldn't make sense to add all these abilities for different stats and have them work differently than str.

[Wipey]

Your math is using the assumption the Tempest capstone gives 25% off hand on top of the +10%/+10% from the other cores when in fact it is +25% total.
10% chance...
An additional 10% chance...
You now have a +25% chance...
80+25=105%

As I understand it, only Dervish ( last core ) is additional off hand double strike chance, Tempest and Deflect arrows only mean +20% off hand chance ( not double strike ), much like Tempest on live.
Only 2 things work with off hand double strike, Perfect twf and Dervish for 35 %, while mainhand is 16 % ( 5 Whirlwind, 5 Perfect twf, 6 item ). Maybe 6 more from Black set + Elven Skill, but I doubt that works for off hand.

[Grailhawk]

Your math is using the assumption the Tempest capstone gives 25% off hand on top of the +10%/+10% from the other cores when in fact it is +25% total.
10% chance...
An additional 10% chance...
You now have a +25% chance...
80+25=105%

I made the same mistake at first but realized it didn't make sense to have more off hand nor such a big jump. It should be reworded.

The other issue is the alternative stat to damage on one handers and thf both being 1x. This is a bug. It wouldn't make sense to add all these abilities for different stats and have them work differently than str.

Knowing Turbine you could be right but at least by the description I would say you are wrong. Have you actually tested it with some kind of video capture or logger tool?

As for the alternative stats being a bug I don't know I've asked 3 times in different places with no answer. What make me think its not a bug is that a 18 months ago they said they would give Tempest a way to get full STR damage on off hand attacks this might be how there doing that.

[Teh_Troll]

Your math is using the assumption the Tempest capstone gives 25% off hand on top of the +10%/+10% from the other cores when in fact it is +25% total.
10% chance...
An additional 10% chance...
You now have a +25% chance...
80+25=105%

I made the same mistake at first but realized it didn't make sense to have more off hand nor such a big jump. It should be reworded.

The other issue is the alternative stat to damage on one handers and thf both being 1x. This is a bug. It wouldn't make sense to add all these abilities for different stats and have them work differently than str.

Are you 100% certain of this? Did you test this? I didn't test a capstone myself as my ranger isn't pure.

Well if this is the case the tough call on Splashing becomes a no-brainer: splash!

Giving up a feat and UMD is not worth 5% off-hand.

[Therigar]

Problem is a melee that can't help with cc at all is worthless.

No, the problem is people who have limited mindsets such as the one expressed above. I play melee characters almost exclusively -- diverting off to other classes only for specific past life reasons or for a change from my regular play. I only bother with crowd control on one build type -- monk. There is very little content that I have not run and none in which I've been judged worthless (as a player or a character).

Crowd control is one aspect of the game. When it isn't available there are other ways to achieve the party's goals (that is, of completing the quest).

The real problem identified by OP is that players want everything. They are always looking for ways to get an advantage in power in order to be more efficient and effective in the game. STR based combat feats are STR based for a reason. DEX based equivalents do not always and should not always exist. So, the premise of the OP is false being based not on what is realistic (even within the fantasy game system never mind real life) but instead on player greed for more power through greater mix and synergy of abilities.

It is not a trap, nor is it a problem necessitating a solution. It is a different approach to the game for which a solution already exists through altered game play.

[Therigar]

while mainhand is 16 % ( 5 Whirlwind, 5 Perfect twf, 6 item ).

Turbine uses two methods when working with how things stack. One is additive, the other isn't. Additive is what you describe -- 5% + 5% + 6% = 16%.

The other method is multiplicative based on the remaining, unaffected, balance. So, using the same numbers it would be 1*.05 + .95*.05 + .9025*.06 = 15.165%. Now, I know there's a way to better explain this method, I just don't remember the maths to write it out.

Turbine isn't always clear about which method it is using or when. And, the difference isn't so large that it would be noticed (might well be within the margin of error for any testing a player could do).

Note also that when a % rises above 100% that it often means that an auto miss or auto fail situation has a chance to be bypassed. So, the 105% off-hand strike could well be the right number with a 5% chance that a missed attack is instead a hit.

Similar observations could be made about most of the things discussed in the thread vis-a-vis Turbine's wording. We don't really know and player testing isn't likely to reveal anything except glaring situations where something works too well or not at all.

[Grailhawk]

Did you include the +4 damage/swing from Elf Racials?

I'm curious as to how this plays with HV damage-boost added in and stuff like that, next Lamania round I'll TR something into a pure human 20.

Dex Based Elf
54 Elf Total Dex
67 Elf Total Damage Mod (added +4 from Raiper Elf line)
208.70 Damage per hit 2.5[1d8] + 67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 + 73.25
.665(5.71)(208.70) + .335(4.38)(208.70) = 792.47 + 306.23 = 1098.70 DPS
1098.70 DPS

STR Based Human
62 Human Total STR
67 Human Total Damage Mod Main Hand
54 Human Total Damage Mod Off Hand
208.70 Average Damage Per hit Main Hand 2.5[1d8]+67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
187.25 Avarage Damage per hit Off Hand 2.5[1d8]+54 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
0.665(2.64)(1.2)(208.70) + 0.665(3.00)(1.2)(187.25) + 0.335(2.03)(208.70) + 0.335(2.30)(187.25)
439.67 + 448.28 + 141.93 + 144.28 = 1174.16 DPS
1174.16 DPS
Note: Damage boost is the 1.2 in the first to terms

Dex Based Human
52 Human Total Dex
62 Human Total Damage Mod Main Hand
200.45 Average Damage Per hit Main Hand 2.5[1d8]+67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
.665(5.64)(1.2)(208.70) + .335(4.33)(208.70) = 792.47 + 306.23 = 1242.03 DPS
1242.03 DPS
Note: Damage boost is the 1.2 in the first terms


Not really a surprise that Human Damage boost comes out ahead even on a STR based Ranger. But DEX based is better then Strength based as you can see when the DEX Based Human comes out ahead of the STR based Human.

Human and Half elf are still the best Ranger races nothing has changed that and they are still STR based for best results though you might be able to pull off a Dex based Ranger that is still very high STR on those Races. Since you will want an STR 18 base on a DEX Based ranger to fit in overwhelming critical. Its just going to be a 10 lbs. of **** in a 5 lbs. bag problem (might not even be that hard with the stat inflation we are getting.). Actually since there is at least +7 STR from buff (rams + Primal Scream) you will be able to get a STR that's equal to your DEX making Human and Helf Dex based better then Elf dex based. Human and Helf are just a two Stat build rather then 1 main and a secondary and will have a 12 base Con.

[Carpone]

With 100% off-hand damage DEX-build with no OC still does more damage.

Still missing something here.. DEX build does more damage than what? STR build? THF build? Some other class split?

[Teh_Troll]

Still missing something here.. DEX build does more damage than what? STR build? THF build? Some other class split?

Was talking about Pure 20 DEX-Elf Ranger with the Dervish Capstone compared to an STR and it looks like I might be wrong. Though that 28 second Sobrien beatdown time is pretty darned fast. Might have said this already as I'm old and forgetful but I had a 12/6/2 "monster" build over on Lamania with as close to a mas-DPS setup as I could squeeze out of that build and it's best time was 34 seconds.

Grail's got OC worked into his calcs for both the DEX and the STR versions. OC's about 7ish% more DPS and his DEX human is about 6% more DPS over the STR human. So it'd about break even and not cost you as many feats and since the cleaves are terrible with TWFing I'm not sure it's worth it.

I'm still not sold on it (DEX Elf), looks like a class-cannon build that'll but out slightly more damage than a human and not heal itself as well. I'll have to see a few in action before I can get a clear picture.

What's most important next time the server gets up is testing that 25% off-hand double-strike to see if the claims of it being bogus are true.

[Teh_Troll]

STR Based Human
62 Human Total STR
67 Human Total Damage Mod Main Hand
54 Human Total Damage Mod Off Hand
208.70 Average Damage Per hit Main Hand 2.5[1d8]+67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
187.25 Avarage Damage per hit Off Hand 2.5[1d8]+54 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
0.665(2.64)(1.2)(208.70) + 0.665(3.00)(1.2)(187.25) + 0.335(2.03)(208.70) + 0.335(2.30)(187.25)
439.67 + 448.28 + 141.93 + 144.28 = 1174.16 DPS
1174.16 DPS
Note: Damage boost is the 1.2 in the first to terms

Dex Based Human
52 Human Total Dex
62 Human Total Damage Mod Main Hand
200.45 Average Damage Per hit Main Hand 2.5[1d8]+67 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 Seeker 10 +73.25
.665(5.64)(1.2)(208.70) + .335(4.33)(208.70) = 792.47 + 306.23 = 1242.03 DPS
1242.03 DPS
Note: Damage boost is the 1.2 in the first terms

Since I know you have this in a Spreadsheet . . . what does the number look like if the DEX Human doesn't have OC?

[PsychoBlonde]

For rapiers a Ranger needs the Weapon Finesse Feat and the Improved Weapon Finesse Enhancement (Tier 2) in Deepwood Stalker.

Balizarde and Celestia, only non finesse one handed weapon that matters is Nightmare and arguably all you need from it is proficiency since its a "swing for the fences" weapon.

AHEM: http://ddowiki.com/page/Mornh,_Hammer_of_the_Mountains

[Grailhawk]

AHEM: http://ddowiki.com/page/Mornh,_Hammer_of_the_Mountains

AHEM: I have two I never use there only good in LD and I'm never in LD.

[charleslecharles]

SAP
Description


When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made.If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4.


Miss trip?Sweeping Strikes: Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack: Deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them. (Balance DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Dexterity Modifier Negates trip). Cooldown: 30/25/20 seconds. Counts as Cleave for the purposes of resetting Momentum Swing (Legendary Dreadnought).
Trip Focus: +1/+2/+3 to the save DC's of Trip Attacks

[Deamus]

Overwhelming critical should be changed to 23 str or 23 dex or 23 CON.

Dont forget the dwarves....!