Anyone looking into Pathfinder for a possible guild expansion/migration?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Now that our guild has successfully launched in two games, we are taking an early look down the road a few years from now for a possible guild expansion.

Lot's of stuff looks great so far in Goblinworks Pathfinder ... graphics still have a long way to go but that's normal 2+ years out from launch. Heavily based on d20 system as DDO was. Devs are trying to be creative in this one. The only setback for me personally is the inclusion of PvP.

Here's quite a detailed Dev Blog... What do you guys & gals think?

[Grosbeak07]

Burned out on Neverwinter and already looking for a new game....

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Burned out on Neverwinter and already looking for a new game....

Somewhat, but DDO is my main game, always was. As long as there's a DDO, Tyrs Paladium will always be here. That includes me.

However, this thread is about looking down the road 2+ years from now at another mmo that is heavily rooted in the d20 system. It looks a little different than the typical fare. It looks interesting.

[ForumAccess]

Hopefully Goblinworks will impress. It would be really nice to have a game that is 'D&D', since Neverwinter failed epically on that account and DDO seems determined to move away from that. But when I was looking at the Pathfinder MMO awhile ago, it really seemed like it was an overambitious project for the resources that they actually had.

[whereispowderedsilve]

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...0-Eastern.html

Going on right now! Cheers! :P! !

[Krelar]

Hopefully Goblinworks will impress. It would be really nice to have a game that is 'D&D', since Neverwinter failed epically on that account and DDO seems determined to move away from that. But when I was looking at the Pathfinder MMO awhile ago, it really seemed like it was an overambitious project for the resources that they actually had.

They do have this in their FAQ.

Is Pathfinder Online going to be a direct adaptation of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook?

No. MMOs have different needs than a tabletop roleplaying game. Pathfinder Online will retain the spirit and flavor of the Pathfinder RPG, but it will not be mechanically identical.

That looks an awful lot like marketing speak for "We're going to ignore the rule set you know and love and do what we want, but we will totally keep some of the names so we can still call it Pathfinder". I'll wait and see though.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

"The biggest challenge we are going to have is overcoming the institutional knowledge of the MMO community that small games from first time publishers typically fail, and getting people to invest in our ideas for how we can overcome the traps that have caught so many of our peers. And the best way we know of to achieve that is to have as close, open and transparent a dialog with the community as we can, so that everyone sees what we're doing, how, why, and when. Keeping people's expectations framed realistically is a big part of that."

-- There are pluses and cons to showing all your cards as you go... but without question, they get a thumbs up here. Wont mean anything if the game blows, but at least we wont waste our time waiting for a game that tanks by the time it launches.

[Uska]

Possibly as long as its not as big a disapointment as NWO was for me if they design pvp from the start it might not be to bad but they tried that with Darkfail(darkfall) and it was a trainwreck.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Possibly as long as its not as big a disapointment as NWO was for me if they design pvp from the start it might not be to bad but they tried that with Darkfail(darkfall) and it was a trainwreck.

Yeah the insistence on PvP is the major turn-off to me thusfar. It just kills the game mechanics for the majority of paying customers (PvEers) and brings endless whiners to the player base. That's just my opinion of course...

[TPICKRELL]

Yeah the insistence on PvP is the major turn-off to me thusfar. It just kills the game mechanics for the majority of paying customers (PvEers) and brings endless whiners to the player base. That's just my opinion of course...

I've been watching it carefully for the past year. I'm hopeful that the combat system is going to be interesting, but the vast scope of all the things they are trying to do has me concerned. I'm just not sure how all the different systems are going to play once they come together. The concepts are really interesting, but their are so many, I'm not sure how they will interact.

But I'm watching their blog regularly to see how it is unfolding. It's the first MMO that is still interesting after some of the implementation details are revealed (that's when NWO lost it for me).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I've been watching it carefully for the past year. I'm hopeful that the combat system is going to be interesting, but the vast scope of all the things they are trying to do has me concerned. I'm just not sure how all the different systems are going to play once they come together. The concepts are really interesting, but their are so many, I'm not sure how they will interact.

But I'm watching their blog regularly to see how it is unfolding. It's the first MMO that is still interesting after some of the implementation details are revealed (that's when NWO lost it for me).

Yep, agreed. The scope of ideas... are breathtaking... and with the plethora of "thin" mmo's on the market nowadays that just launch in a half-assed state, it leaves one to wonder. They've already hinted as recently as yesterday that some of these proposed ideas are 4-5 years out.

The other thing is the PvP. All these wonderful ideas they are discussing makes the mouth water for many in the D&D community. But the great majority of us will want a PvE experience. They've been making it clear recently that it will be light on dungeons, quests, story and that PvP will be a major part of the integral game. So their are very conflicting concepts thusfar being marketed.

Still the fact they want to re-invent the wheel and add a real complexity to the game is very cool, after quite a few years of SSDD in the mmo world.

[Urist]

That looks an awful lot like marketing speak for "We're going to ignore the rule set you know and love and do what we want, but we will totally keep some of the names so we can still call it Pathfinder". I'll wait and see though.

I don't understand this mindset that the rule-set in use is all so important. I thought half the fun of D&D (/Pathfinder) was that the DM had the power to be flexible with the "rules", to make a more fun game. The Pathfinder MMO will take place in one of Pathfinder's core settings (AIUI), and will be true to the lore. That is what makes the game Pathfinder, not which rulebooks they're choosing to implement IMO.

Besides which, because of the nature of the "Open Game License", in order to implement the d20 system in a video game, they would have to get a license from the owners of the d20 IP (WotC?). How do you think those discussions would go? :/

Yeah the insistence on PvP is the major turn-off to me thusfar. It just kills the game mechanics for the majority of paying customers (PvEers) and brings endless whiners to the player base. That's just my opinion of course...

FWIW, the PvP-by-default design seems to be doing pretty well for EVE Online, which Goblinworks seem to be taking a lot of (good, IMO) lessons from.

Yep, agreed. The scope of ideas... are breathtaking... and with the plethora of "thin" mmo's on the market nowadays that just launch in a half-assed state, it leaves one to wonder. They've already hinted as recently as yesterday that some of these proposed ideas are 4-5 years out.

Goblinworks have used the acronym "MVP" - Minimum Viable Product - which means they want to launch with the bare minimum "game" that the first players can start playing/building on, and gradually roll out more features over time (as they gradually allow more players in).

The other thing is the PvP. All these wonderful ideas they are discussing makes the mouth water for many in the D&D community. But the great majority of us will want a PvE experience. They've been making it clear recently that it will be light on dungeons, quests, story and that PvP will be a major part of the integral game. So their are very conflicting concepts thusfar being marketed.

If all you want is a PvE experience with no risk of PvP, then I suspect you'll probably not want this game. Creating dungeons, quests and story require a lot of time and resources, which Goblinworks don't have. So they instead are trying to create a sandbox where the players can create the content through building settlements, fighting monster attacks and invasions, and political machinations.

[Uska]

They do have this in their FAQ.



That looks an awful lot like marketing speak for "We're going to ignore the rule set you know and love and do what we want, but we will totally keep some of the names so we can still call it Pathfinder". I'll wait and see though.

That kind of thinking is exactly why I hated Champions online they basicly stole the name and some of the background and ignored what I loved about the game and to hear pathfinder is doing the same thing is a real turn off and just about totally kills my interest in the game unless it turns out truly amazing but the more I hear the less I like

[Hoglum]

That looks an awful lot like marketing speak for "We're going to ignore the rule set you know and love and do what we want, but we will totally keep some of the names so we can still call it Pathfinder". I'll wait and see though.

There's a difference between taking some liberties with the rules and totally butchering them. DDO took some liberties but tried to stayed D&D as best they can. NWO made up a crud game & tried to pass it on as D&D. Big difference.

Leslie, it seems you're finally admitting?/realizing? that NWO isn't really all that good. Is this true?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There's a difference between taking some liberties with the rules and totally butchering them. DDO took some liberties but tried to stayed D&D as best they can. NWO made up a crud game & tried to pass it on as D&D. Big difference.

Leslie, it seems you're finally admitting?/realizing? that NWO isn't really all that good. Is this true?

It's borderline. I like the game for what it is, and hate the game for what it isn't. I know that's not a glowing endorsement, or absolute denial, it just is what it is. We have a wonderful group over there, a thriving guild with some of the best online folks I've met in years. We are practically a household name over there.

For me personally, I wanted more of a D&D experience that DDO just has going for it (I knew this going in though) and Neverwinter is still lacking. I'll still play, but I'll be spending more of my time solidifying our guild base here and working on building our No Drama Alliance on Ghallanda.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

That kind of thinking is exactly why I hated Champions online they basicly stole the name and some of the background and ignored what I loved about the game and to hear pathfinder is doing the same thing is a real turn off and just about totally kills my interest in the game unless it turns out truly amazing but the more I hear the less I like

Yeah in the beginning it sounded awesome for those of us who like d20 and 3.5 Ed. They talked of dungeons and monsters and classes and races. Now its all about PvP integration. I'm all for sandbox and player creating content, but not at the expense of building PvP into every aspect of the game.

There are still lots of interesting stuff they are saying, but it's being mired by lofty dreams and PvP. They have proven they can talk, but havent proven they can listen yet. The playerbase is looking for a DDO killer, or at least a close mmo alteration of the Pathfinder/D&D rules its based on.

We shall see, but I agree they are doing a lot of talking.. not a lot of listening.. and coding what they want. It's early though...

[Ausdoerrt]

I've looked into Pathfinder, it looks OK for now, but too far from completion to really say anything. Just like always, if it's free I'll have to try it, if it's not - I'll need to watch reviews before I commit.

It is certainly over-ambitious, especially from a small developer, and that rarely ends well. Even big developers screw up when they get that way. So I'd expect multiple delays and either significant content cuts late in the dev cycle - or numerous bugs at launch.

One thing that looks quite suspicious to me is its description as "SANDBOX" MMO, and I've never been the biggest fan of sandbox games in general, except maybe completely ridiculous ones like Just Cause.