Armor needs to give more PRR, double it

[Teh_Troll]

With earth-stance being available to anyone who wants it and an additional 15 PRR available in cheap ENH it's now better than heavy armor and it feels wrong. I've never had an issue with Earth-stance PRR being the same as leather armor, but when it gets better than plate something is broken.

Not even talking about the bonus 20% AC because AC doesn't do squat in difficult content anyway.

Solution: just double the PRR value of armor, don't nerf anyone. With the over-tuned damage in EEs it's kinda needed anyway.

[Raoull]

Maybe.... I'm not sure really. Double definitely seems to high though.

One rather major correction though.... Earth stance gives less PRR than heavy armor, as long as you have over a 24BAB. That BAB is possible now with Divine Might. Also, that is only for pure(ish) monks and Earthstance IV, and APs must be spent to accomplish that.

I think it would be more correct to say that Earth Stance is now about equal with Heavy Armor. Whether that is desired or not, I don't know. APs being spent... makes it seem pretty fair. You could similarly be annoyed with Rangers having PRR similar to Heavy armor while wearing light armor, but again, they're spending APs.

And once you toss APs in, heavy armor wearing guys in Defender Stance will definitely have higher PRR than any pajama/light armor wearer.

So... I guess I'm fine with this as it is. Defensive Strikes absolutely had to go, and I'm a bit shocked that it did. I can't say I'm 100% positive that more bonus to armor wouldn't be a good thing, but I do think it should only be relatively minor tweaks now. Maybe just an AP line in the Defender trees (tier 1/2 to make it easy to access) that gives +5/+10/+15 PRR in heavy armor or something of the like would be better. (And maybe allow +3 per tier in light armor and +4 per tier in medium.)

[Teh_Troll]

Maybe just an AP line in the Defender trees (tier 1/2 to make it easy to access) that gives +5/+10/+15 PRR in heavy armor or something of the like would be better. (And maybe allow +3 per tier in light armor and +4 per tier in medium.)

I wouldn't put that limit on heavy armor, especially since defenders are down 15 PRR from what they have in live anyway.

Let's not forget the 15 PRR from GMoF so it's really 45 PRR but I'm not sure how many non GMoF will take this as a twist.

Earth Stance giving more PRR than full plate is broken and dumb, address this.

What's sticking in my craw is my nerfed to pointlessness light-armor Evasion tank is getting 103 PRR on lamania now, was 118 on live, down 15 PRR. Here's the breakdown . . .

PRR
20 Stalwart III (Not sure about this top two, but the numbers work out)
20 Stance
10 Improved Shield Mastery
15 legendary Shield Mastery
15 Sheletering from TOR Shield.
10 Heed no Pain
13 Light Armor

103 PRR 42% damage mitigation.

LR'd him into a Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 Earth stance build and tested out various configurations. As a sorta Sentinel "Stalwart" with centered dual-celestias . . .

PRR
15 Earth Stance
15 Improved Earth stance
10 Tempest
15 Planat focus
14 Blue Slot
15 Stalwart Stance
10 Heed no Pain

94 PRR 40% Damage Mitigation

Now true the pajama build has Planar focus, but since it's not an intim build don't need Brawn's anymore. There's also 15 twistable from GMoF.

It's just feeling wrong to me. in U11-U14 they did all this stuff to nerf the TWFing pajama tanks now they add this other junk back in at the same time armor-wearing stalwarts are getting nerfed a little.

And as a full-offensive build it was still at like 60 PRR.

[Raoull]

I wouldn't put that limit on heavy armor, especially since defenders are down 15 PRR from what they have in live anyway.

Sounds good to me... if tempests can get +10PRR, fighters/pals getting +15 doesn't seem unbalanced. I guess since you're so worried about pajamas, it would have to be something like "Armor expertise" and only qualify if you are wearing armor of any sort, although they'd better specifically allow WF if they do, they're PRR is hosed as it is.

Let's not forget the 15 PRR from GMoF so it's really 45 PRR but I'm not sure how many non GMoF will take this as a twist.

Twisting it, while possible, would be nuts as it is a Tier 4. Considering Sentinel can add 30 PRR (and adds 10 for free) and Drednaught can add a twistable 20 PRR (although requires active CE), I don't see that as unbalanced at all.

Earth Stance giving more PRR than full plate is broken and dumb, address this.

Not really more... comparable.

What's sticking in my craw is my nerfed to pointlessness light-armor Evasion tank is getting 103 PRR on lamania now, was 118 on live, down 15 PRR. Here's the breakdown . . .

PRR
20 Stalwart III (Not sure about this top two, but the numbers work out)
20 Stance
10 Improved Shield Mastery
15 legendary Shield Mastery
15 Sheletering from TOR Shield.
10 Heed no Pain
13 Light Armor

103 PRR 42% damage mitigation.

LR'd him into a Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 Earth stance build and tested out various configurations. As a sorta Sentinel "Stalwart" with centered dual-celestias . . .

PRR
15 Earth Stance
15 Improved Earth stance
10 Tempest
15 Planat focus
14 Blue Slot
15 Stalwart Stance
10 Heed no Pain

94 PRR 40% Damage Mitigation

Ok.... you're complaining about earth stance being too good compared to earth stance, but then your example is a light armor tank? Well... sure. Your tank build pajama guy is down 23 PRR from your light armor tank. (I'm not going to count Planar focus, as either build has access to that if desired.) 23 PRR is nearly exactly what you get from your Shield feats/twist. So.... a tank built pajama wearer has basically the same PRR as a tank built light armor wearer.

Sounds perfect to me. Both are evasion tanks, having a similar PRR seems reasonable.

Although I'm not sure those numbers are right. I thought you'd be limited to Earth 1 stance (a lousy 3 PRR) if you were a Monk 2 splash. But I'm sure a similar build can be made.


Especially considering your example... I think the real problem isn't heavy armor vs. pajamas. The real problem is that Shields suck. After all, while your light armor tank and your pajama tank have similar PRRs, the pajama tank will out DPS the S&B guy (although I'm not so sure about threat generation). Heavy armor doesn't need a buff. Shields do.

I think all shields should naturally give the PRR of Improved Shield Mastery (5/10/15) and then ISM can just stack on top of that.

[Teh_Troll]

Although I'm not sure those numbers are right. I thought you'd be limited to Earth 1 stance (a lousy 3 PRR) if you were a Monk 2 splash. But I'm sure a similar build can be made. .

You thought wrong. Please famiarize yourself with the new game mechanics before posting again as we have enough ignorance and FUD floating around this place.

Seriously folks, if you don’t know what you are talking about, haven’t been on lamania and tested this stuff for yourself, you should be READING and not POSTING.

Sounds good to me... if tempests can get +10PRR, fighters/pals getting +15 doesn't seem unbalanced. I guess since you're so worried about pajamas, it would have to be something like "Armor expertise" and only qualify if you are wearing armor of any sort, although they'd better specifically allow WF if they do, they're PRR is hosed as it is.

Yeah, and I know that the devs are thinking with the stupid stance changes as there's some potential of stacking with the monk stuff that could be broken. That's easy to fix, just have all the stalwart PRR and junk require armor.

Ok.... you're complaining about earth stance being too good compared to earth stance, but then your example is a light armor tank? Well... sure. Your tank build pajama guy is down 23 PRR from your light armor tank. (I'm not going to count Planar focus, as either build has access to that if desired.) 23 PRR is nearly exactly what you get from your Shield feats/twist. So.... a tank built pajama wearer has basically the same PRR as a tank built light armor wearer.

Sounds perfect to me. Both are evasion tanks, having a similar PRR seems reasonable. .

Nonsense.

One’s hiding behind a shield and the other is TWFing with 100% off-hand procs and an extra crit-multiplier on a 19-20. The TWFing guy is also getting SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THREAT since he’s doing more damage and has the additional 70% from earth stance.

The guy behind the shield should be getting a hell of a lot more damage migration than 2-4% as it is now. The guy behind the shield is getting a bunch more AC, but that’s useless in EE. PRR and dodge are what matters, both the S&B light-armor guy and the TWFing robes guy can get the same dodge, the TWFing guy is getting only a little less PRR.

I’m sorry, this is broken.

[Raoull]

You thought wrong. Please famiarize yourself with the new game mechanics before posting again as we have enough ignorance and FUD floating around this place.

Seriously folks, if you don’t know what you are talking about, haven’t been on lamania and tested this stuff for yourself, you should be READING and not POSTING.

eh... sorry, using Lam is a bit of a pain for me... not enough space on my ssd for it, and it is insanely laggy on my spinning ones.... I've only made toons and messed with enhancements some, and hadn't played, and hadn't messed with my monk.

Yeah, and I know that the devs are thinking with the stupid stance changes as there's some potential of stacking with the monk stuff that could be broken. That's easy to fix, just have all the stalwart PRR and junk require armor.

I don't see a reason there can't be stalward monk mixes. Maybe heavy armor needs more PRR, but that's a different issue than whether there should be such a thing as pajama tanks at all. I think there should, although I agree they shouldn't be the best tanks.

One’s hiding behind a shield and the other is TWFing with 100% off-hand procs and an extra crit-multiplier on a 19-20. The TWFing guy is also getting SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THREAT since he’s doing more damage and has the additional 70% from earth stance.

The guy behind the shield should be getting a hell of a lot more damage migration than 2-4% as it is now. The guy behind the shield is getting a bunch more AC, but that’s useless in EE. PRR and dodge are what matters, both the S&B light-armor guy and the TWFing robes guy can get the same dodge, the TWFing guy is getting only a little less PRR.

I’m sorry, this is broken.

You're conflating a few things, and it ends up an apples to oranges comparison. So instead, using your numbers, if your light tank put down the shield and did TWF, and also picked up a planar focus, then it would have effectively an identical PRR as your pajama tank.

So DPS isn't the issue. With the scenario of a TWF light armor tank vs. a TWF pajama tank, using your numbers, you have two very similar tanks, DPS and PRR wise.

Although with Earth stance + enhancements worth 30, I imagine a different pajama tank could beat out the best light armor tank by 14 (light armor + divine might or something similar gives 16 PRR at lvl 28). However, I imagine monk stances upgrading without taking monk lvls is a bug. If that is assumed, then it is more likely that the monk tank is only getting 27 PRR (assuming 12 monk lvls, otherwise they'd lose Stalwart). And, it is also less likely that a monk tank could take a ranger splash to get the 10PRR for that. Combine those two factors, and the monk tanks PRR is only 2 points higher than the light armor tank. I'm fine with that.

Monk stances improving without more monk levels has got to be a bug. Otherwise the 2 monk splash opening up Earth III's +1 crit multiplier is OP, regardless of PRR....

[Teh_Troll]

Monk stances improving without more monk levels has got to be a bug. Otherwise the 2 monk splash opening up Earth III's +1 crit multiplier is OP, regardless of PRR....

It's not a bug. it's WAI. The improved monks stance are purchasable with feats which is something a fighter has plenty of. 2 Monk levels and 3 feeats = access to FULL monk stances. In my case I dumped my shield mastery and Khopesh switching full time to CiTW weapons.

DPS is an issue because it affects total threat. The way stalwart stance works you can get full-threat TWFing (unlike on live now which requires the shield for that extra 75% threat). So on top of that toss in 70% earth-stance threat and about double the damage of a S&B toon . . . I hope you're getting the point.

I don't have an issue with hybrids, I have an issue with hybrids being vastly superior at the same time the S&B&Armor guys are getting nerfed.

And regarding PRR do to it's diminishing returns you need to look at the total damage mitigation and not the PRR number. A 10-20 PRR difference isn't important, it's that 2-5% total damage mitigation that matters.

[legendkilleroll]

Im in similar situation, have a 18pal/2monk evasion tank using S&B, when U19 goes live, 18 paladin just isnt needed so ive been looking into rebuilding.

Like troll said cant see any reason to use S&B, looking into the dual wield centered earthstance kensai myself, id be dual wielding bswords as i have a nightmare, DPS will be higher and will still be great defensively

[Teh_Troll]

Like troll said cant see any reason to use S&B, looking into the dual wield centered earthstance kensai myself, id be dual wielding bswords as i have a nightmare, DPS will be higher and will still be great defensively

I'm torn on this . . . light blades versus heavy. I have pair of Balizardes and Celestia as well as a pair of Nightmares and a zillion really good Khopeshes.

Thing is . . . when in my tankiest mode of this 12/6/2 build I cannot afford enough APs in Kensai to center any weapon, but it only costs 1 AP in ninja to get centered with celestias. And if you're stuck with 1 weapon you could do a whole lot worse than a light-saber than breaks nearly any DR.

But with the said as a Kensai heavy blades is 25% more woowoo with the nightmares.

I'm actually torn on this, which is a good thing. Tough calls are good for the game.

But you know what's not a tough call? Earth-stance versus armor, that's a no-brainer.

[oradafu]

eh... sorry, using Lam is a bit of a pain for me... not enough space on my ssd for it, and it is insanely laggy on my spinning ones.... I've only made toons and messed with enhancements some, and hadn't played, and hadn't messed with my monk.

<snip>

Monk stances improving without more monk levels has got to be a bug. Otherwise the 2 monk splash opening up Earth III's +1 crit multiplier is OP, regardless of PRR....

I just want to verify what others have said.

The new Enhancement system allows players to put full ranks of an ability if they have access to it. Additionally, many/most abilities no longer have a prerequisite to put points into them except for AP points and opening them up from the ability below it and some small level gating in non-core abilities. I'll use Divine Might from the Paladin tree as an example, on live you need CHA 18 for Divine Might III but no CHA is required for any rank of Divine Might. So small splashes have access to alot of stuff that on the live servers are gated by levels and other prerequisites.

[CoasterHops]

I'm going to say Armor Class is still relevant in EE content, but of course that Armor class is extremely high lol.

Anyways I'm ok with the Earth stance IV monk hitting near the PRR of a light armored tank, they should be relatively comparable, people will still make Light Armored tanks, people will still make Earth stance IV tanks, people are still going to make Heavy Armored tanks.

I believe you could make some sort of TWFing light armored tank with relatively comparable PRR to an Earth stance IV one.

Anyways I like options, having a light armored wearer having a possible 50% more PRR than the best PJ version starts to suggest that options aren't viable.

Edit: As for the suggestion to double PRR from armor, its actually not a bad idea, it wont push the light armored wearer too far ahead.
But it probably wont ever happen.

[Teh_Troll]

Anyways I'm ok with the Earth stance IV monk hitting near the PRR of a light armored tank, they should be relatively comparable, people will still make Light Armored tanks, people will still make Earth stance IV tanks, people are still going to make Heavy Armored tanks.

An earth-stance "tank" monk getting the same PRR as a light-armor tank WITHOUT A SHIELD would be acceptable. Once that shield comes it it should not be close.

I believe you could make some sort of TWFing light armored tank with relatively comparable PRR to an Earth stance IV one.

You can't.

[legendkilleroll]

I'm torn on this . . . light blades versus heavy. I have pair of Balizardes and Celestia as well as a pair of Nightmares and a zillion really good Khopeshes.

Thing is . . . when in my tankiest mode of this 12/6/2 build I cannot afford enough APs in Kensai to center any weapon, but it only costs 1 AP in ninja to get centered with celestias. And if you're stuck with 1 weapon you could do a whole lot worse than a light-saber than breaks nearly any DR.

But with the said as a Kensai heavy blades is 25% more woowoo with the nightmares.

I'm actually torn on this, which is a good thing. Tough calls are good for the game.

But you know what's not a tough call? Earth-stance versus armor, that's a no-brainer.

Hehe, i havent played with the enhancements as much as i should to try and see what i can fit, my nightmare is tier4, dont really have anything else so im just looking into bsword builds

Yeh gonna be alot of earth stancers i think, only needing 1monk, and all the feats fighter gets, ultimate stances are hard to pass on

[Raoull]

OK... the selectable monk stance feats I did not know. That does change things some.

Although, if you're going to be a centered tank, I'd never do it with a 2Monk splash. Shadowfade comes at lvl 6 and is worth a huge chunk of PRR. (Either a 25% or a 16% reduction in damage depending on whether you assume ghostly or not.)

So... 9 Monk for Shadowfade & Improved evasion, 6 Fighter/Paladin for Stalwart stance, 3 ranger for improved offhand & 10PRR.... (2 levels for whatever) Yeah, that beast will have more PRR than a light armor TWF/THF tank, and possibly more total damage mitigation than anything else.... (Although I'm not sure it will quite get to physical damage resistance of a full blown heavy armor S&B tank.)


Ugh... was planning on a final splash on my tanky monk to give full UMD, but ranger is pretty tempting.... The real pain is they seem to be attempting to tempt monks away from Handwraps. Between the epic TWF feat and the ranger stuff... that might be accomplished, at least part time.


OK... I still think Shields needing a buff is more important than armor, but I can see buffing PRR from armor as well. Perhaps not a full double, but a buff is in order.

Other options are ditching stances as selectable feats, or the +PRR from the shintao tree, although neither of those address S&B suckitude.