Tempest - OTWF, TWB and TWD

[FestusHood]

Another thing people may not realize about the new to-hit formula is that, point for point, debuffing ac is twice as effective as raising to hit.

I'm having a bit of a dilemma with my tempest/rogue hybrid. Final build will be ranger 12/rogue 7/fighter 1. He's level 16 now, and at level 15, i had to make the choice between 2 paths. Cleave and great cleave, to get owerwhelming critical at level 21. Or, precision and quicken, for no fail (but expensive) self heals.

I'm mostly concerned with heroic levels, and maybe a little bit of epic hard, but no epic elite. Problem is, cleave, and great cleave are virtually useless on my tempest. The +(W) effect is fairly negligible on my rapier, but the main drawback of course is no offhand procs. So it basically gives me the option to hit 3 mobs once or one mob twice. Meh.

The precision/quicken combo has it's own drawback. I've found that i just don't fail concentration checks, at least not in heroic elite or epic hard. Then there is precision. I've been trying to determine exactly what mobs actually have fort. The obvious ones are undead, constructs, and elementals. Precision means turning off power attack. Assuming i have about 25-30 sneak damage on average, is precision worth more than power attack for a tempest?

You are probably wondering how this relates to the op. It's that i don't think i want either of these combos. I think i'm going to give up on overwhelming critical. It's not worth 3 feats to me on this build. Quicken is also probably out of the running. So oversized two weapon fighting is on the table, since i expect to be using oversized weapons. And probably precision. What you all think?

[SiliconShadow]

Another thing people may not realize about the new to-hit formula is that, point for point, debuffing ac is twice as effective as raising to hit.

I'm having a bit of a dilemma with my tempest/rogue hybrid. Final build will be ranger 12/rogue 7/fighter 1. He's level 16 now, and at level 15, i had to make the choice between 2 paths. Cleave and great cleave, to get owerwhelming critical at level 21. Or, precision and quicken, for no fail (but expensive) self heals.

I'm mostly concerned with heroic levels, and maybe a little bit of epic hard, but no epic elite. Problem is, cleave, and great cleave are virtually useless on my tempest. The +(W) effect is fairly negligible on my rapier, but the main drawback of course is no offhand procs. So it basically gives me the option to hit 3 mobs once or one mob twice. Meh.

The precision/quicken combo has it's own drawback. I've found that i just don't fail concentration checks, at least not in heroic elite or epic hard. Then there is precision. I've been trying to determine exactly what mobs actually have fort. The obvious ones are undead, constructs, and elementals. Precision means turning off power attack. Assuming i have about 25-30 sneak damage on average, is precision worth more than power attack for a tempest?

You are probably wondering how this relates to the op. It's that i don't think i want either of these combos. I think i'm going to give up on overwhelming critical. It's not worth 3 feats to me on this build. Quicken is also probably out of the running. So oversized two weapon fighting is on the table, since i expect to be using oversized weapons. And probably precision. What you all think?

I have an almost identical build but I opted for 12/6/2 instead. At the moment precision is in use for me 40% power attack 60% and I have 3 feats I can play with for other things, at the moment I have dragon marks for the chimera fangs but this will soon be replaced.

Precision is much higher dps than power attack vs targets with large amounts of fortification, stacked with the rogue traits and black armour, critting isn't usually a problem.

Remember the CITW rapiers are x3 and a high base attack damage, best way to make use of these is to make sure you hit and can crit (Precision) when you know you can increase damage as much as possible, for me this is Legendary Dreadnought and Power Attack (+5 per hand and 0.5W from Dreadnought)

I have 60 strength buffed with 66 on titans grip

18 base
6 levels
+8 item
+3 insight
+1 exceptional
+2 profane
+5 tome
+4 dreadnought
+2 feats
+2 ship
+2 rage
+2 yugo
+5 primal
+6 titans
---------
66 str - 60 sustainable

After the patch you will be able to get +9 seeker from your trees (assasin/kensai/tempest) dreadnought provides you with the extra threat range, and combined with all the clickies you will have, your tempest won't even run out of extra damage.

Twists:
Sense Weakness T4 - Fury Of the Wild
Hail of Blows T2 - Grandmaster of Flowers
A T1 ability - Primal if you think you need it, you can go regen, more dodge, more trap disable, more saves, tunnel vision if you have madstones is a good choice etc etc

[ice584]

I just wanted to know wether the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Blocking and Two Weapon Defense feats are worth taking.

OTWF definitely worth the bonus to-hit IMO. But if you'd rather, You can avoid needing OTWF if you just use a light weapon in the off-hand. The DPS difference of a Scimitar/shortsword combo Versus dual Scimitars shouldn't be game-breaking, IMO. Especially if it lets you pick up another feat that you really wanted or one that would help make up that difference.

That said, you lose the symmetric appearance of wielding two identical weapons, plus if you have bonuses that are weapon-specific that can unbalance things too.

Don't forget though, that in the case of Improved Critical: Slashing and the like you can always roll with something like a Kama or Handaxe in your offhand. My Ranger/Monk uses her GS longsword and Dream Edge which may not be UBER-TOP-DPS-OMG-FTW but it works pretty darn well.

Remember to factor in weapon availability. I'd say scimitars are probably easier to find than handaxes but both are harder to find than longswords. If you can Cannith craft pretty well, that might shift it a bit also.

And when would I take it?

Personally...I'd take it as soon as I can. But my OCD hates having penalties to anything.

Why would I take it in what general cases and why not?

It's not beneficial at all at the extremes.

If you have so little to-hit that taking it would still mean you only hit on a 20, then it's worthless.

Alternatively, if you're to-hit is so high that you hit on a +2 already, then it's worthless. As long as you're somewhere in between those two extremes, it's beneficial. As others have pointed out already it can be moot if the bump doesn't put you into the next 5%...but IMO, with so many buffs that can be thrown around these days it is likely that SOMETHING will stack with that extra to-hit and bump you into the next 5%.

[ice584]

Another thing people may not realize about the new to-hit formula is that, point for point, debuffing ac is twice as effective as raising to hit.

I used Improved Destruction a lot before MotU, but post-MotU it's a staple for me. Elemental Longbow and Grave Wraps FTW.

main drawback of course is no offhand procs. So it basically gives me the option to hit 3 mobs once or one mob twice. Meh.

I definitely understand what you were going for with Overwhelming Critical, but I agree, the TWF line would definitely be the way to go if your target is endgame efficiency. I feel like endgame really requires max DPS on one target at a time. You want to decrease the NUMBER of targets as fast as possible.

For late game heroic, EN, and even most EH the Cleaves could be handy but (I feel) that's really because you're steamrolling it anyhow. At that point it's a WAWG.

I've found that i just don't fail concentration checks, at least not in heroic elite or epic hard.

This intrigues me. I haven't done a ton of testing with this myself but I know a friend of mine complains all the time that his concentration checks fail. Both on his Ranger and Sorc; both have maxed concentration and have items. I might have to look into this more sometime... For me, it was a no-brainer on my FvS. I didn't take it on my Ranger because there were some other things I really wanted to fit in, but Quicken was definitely something I considered.

Then there is precision. I've been trying to determine exactly what mobs actually have fort. Precision means turning off power attack. Assuming i have about 25-30 sneak damage on average, is precision worth more than power attack for a tempest?

I had the same dilemma with my monk (and had BOTH feats in the build at one point) but I settled on Precision. A big reason for me is because I was planning on using Fury of the Wild so crits are important. That, and the fact that I feel the extra to-hit bonus is beneficial too so it's a win-win.

Another bonus to Precision is that it applies the bonus to-hit to ANY attack, including your bow. That helps negate the (what can be nasty) penalties you have on your Manyshot arrows.

[FestusHood]

This intrigues me. I haven't done a ton of testing with this myself but I know a friend of mine complains all the time that his concentration checks fail. Both on his Ranger and Sorc; both have maxed concentration and have items. I might have to look into this more sometime... For me, it was a no-brainer on my FvS. I didn't take it on my Ranger because there were some other things I really wanted to fit in, but Quicken was definitely something I considered.

Part of the reason might be that i tend to move away from things when i need to heal. But i still get hit at times, and i just haven't found very many cases of failing a concentration check. I'm wearing a crystal cove hat with concentration +15 on it. I also have a greensteel belt that gives me a bonus to constitution skills. My unbuffed con is 25. Will be 26 when i figure out how to fit in greater human adapatability. I always wear a good luck item, mostly for saves, but it adds to skills too. Try to keep greater heroism going whenever i don't forget it.

I reckon it probably helps that ranger spells are low level, since spell level factors into the formula for making a concentration check. I had quicken on my cleric.

[Fedora1]

On what planet do you need the to-hit bonus in low levels?

You did notice I said "between" two options. The OP asked about 3 things, I eliminated one of them and offered an opinion on the other two.

Frankly I never take OTWF at all, but I do take TWD.

By the way, I do indeed see a significant difference in the percentage of hits at low levels, (with non-twinked 1st lifers and no gear passed from alts) when using either a single weapon and shield or two hander VS two weapons (1 light) VS two weapons (neither one light).

But at low levels its easy enough to kill anything you can hit without dual wielding khopeshes, so I just stick to a two hander or a one handed weapon and a light weapon. After about L7 or so then yeah, hitting is not an issue so dual wield whatever you want and no need for OSTWF.

[SiliconShadow]

At low levels two rapiers for a ranger up to level 4 is the best DPS you can get. The highest + you can use and preferably keen. I've experimented with many weapons even the good low level great axes and farming for no min level +3 rapiers from the sharn syndicate chain end rewards was the best if you have any (I have a +3 and a pure good).

Funnily enough I find staffs to be the best bludgeoning until level 5.

Further on the OTWF, it is a DPS increase as it does reduce the amount of misses (7 per minute more hits on most boss mobs) but this is only worth it end game. Also destruction can increase your to hit by up to roughly 15% improved destruction by roughly 25%.

There is a perfectly good DPS path through Dreadnought without requiring cleave so don't waste your feats / destiny points, you can do better.

[Wipey]

At low levels two rapiers for a ranger up to level 4 is the best DPS you can get.

Now THAT is a total waste of time. Twf at low levels without gtwf .
You are much better with PA/cleaves and two hander ( Carnifex, Holy Maul for Delera's or Crypt, nice Icy bursted good prefix/suffix random gen ) until lvl 10 or so if Tempest or gtwf+Greensteel.
Rapier rogue in Bloody Crypt or Delera's getting 5 kills is pretty common sight.

[Dexraven]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tempest_Enhancements_(Lamannia) Pre NDA

Tempest: You gain +10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

No need for OTWF on a tempest Scimi user

[SiliconShadow]

Now THAT is a total waste of time. Twf at low levels without gtwf .
You are much better with PA/cleaves and two hander ( Carnifex, Holy Maul for Delera's or Crypt, nice Icy bursted good prefix/suffix random gen ) until lvl 10 or so if Tempest or gtwf+Greensteel.
Rapier rogue in Bloody Crypt or Delera's getting 5 kills is pretty common sight.

Well yeah of course anyone using rapiers in deleras deserves that lol... But really, I tried carnifex over my rapiers at low level and I hit more and kill faster, and I am only talking 1~4.

[Nimulos]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Tempest_Enhancements_(Lamannia) Pre NDA

Tempest: You gain +10% chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding. While you are dual wielding, you can use your dexterity modifier to hit with light melee weapons. You now treat Scimitars as if they were light melee weapons.

No need for OTWF on a tempest Scimi user

Finally, that's some understandable AND usefull information. I must admit I am not really well informed on all the brabble about the new combat system (but from what I gathered DDO is about to toss away big parts of the DnD roots) but this information solved everything. Seeing as I don't block much and prefer not to take Lightning Reflexes my choice later on will be TWD for Tempest III, I will take things like Toughness, Weapon focus slashing and other usefull stuff in between and take that one at level 18 propably.

Maybe I have to gather some information on the update and try to understand everything, hope it doesn't screw up things too much for me.

Also I am not sure wether excessively playing EN/EH/EE will be worth it for me, as I will most likely just get my tokens together and start all over because I don't have the Destinies and don't know wether/when I will get them.

After taking a quick look at the upcoming changes: Oh god... propably gotta see this live to understand it...

[Vargouille]

This penalty can therefore become quite significant against anything that has equal or higher AC than your to hit, the difference is the same as 10% of the targets AC score.

In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.

Hmm, I made a spreadsheet with the numbers, trying to prove you wrong. I messed around with a lot of numbers, but it does seem like your case is pretty general in effect. I still loathe the new system (besides which, it has a load of bugs), but it it not as bad with to hit as I thought.

Will have to amend my position on this. OTWF is indeed still a good choice. I let myself be misled by a simplistic calculation, and this led to a wrong conclusion.

Good catch, and thank you for putting this straight

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

[maddmatt70]

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

Any chance you can make us happier by giving us real numbers to play with. More then just kill count. Number nerds would rejoice - instead its sift through the tea leaves and hope for the best.

[Meetch1972]

Any chance you can make us happier by giving us real numbers to play with. More then just kill count. Number nerds would rejoice - instead its sift through the tea leaves and hope for the best.

In terms of the XP report, I'd love to see that! And I fear it at the same time...

A breakdown including HPs dealt and HPs healed (including rest of the party) as well as straight kill count would be interesting, and useful... for figuring out who to boot out of the failed elite <insert boss beatdown here>. It does limit my future piking plans, should it happen...

[AbyssalMage]

This kind of calm, civil, information-rich discussion makes me happy (and about AC and To-Hit in particular, which players occasionally seem misinformed about).

Thank you for making the DDO forums more awesomer.

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

The formula is (your-to-hit+10.5)/(2*target's-AC)=percentage you roll a d20 against
if you are proficient with the weapon you are wielding, you add 25% to that.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor_Class

if you look at that graph, and add 20%(25% for proficiency, and take away 5% for auto-miss on a one), you get the totals.

All in all, this seems to be accurate with in my experiences. Of course, with out knowing the exact armor totals of enemies, it makes it more difficult.

[Brunhildha]

I definitely understand what you were going for with Overwhelming Critical, but I agree, the TWF line would definitely be the way to go if your target is endgame efficiency. I feel like endgame really requires max DPS on one target at a time. You want to decrease the NUMBER of targets as fast as possible.
<<snip>>
Another bonus to Precision is that it applies the bonus to-hit to ANY attack, including your bow. That helps negate the (what can be nasty) penalties you have on your Manyshot arrows.

Niwareka is a slightly odd 12/7/1 Ranger/Rogue/Fighter. (Hey, it works for her!) She use TWF Rapier & SS, bows when appropriate, IC Pierce and Ranged, and has 9 SA die.

I have played around with Power Attack / Precision, and OTWF, just watching the speed the Drow go down but not bothering to count numbers.

1. Level Drain beats good Attack. Now she always carries a Sacrificial Dagger in her offhand, even though it's DPS is poor.
2. Shiradi and Primal are fun but to kill stuff fast, go Fury. She has yet to try Legendary or Shadow Dancer.
3. If you rely at all on Sneak Attack or Crits, then Precision wins over P.A., and OTWF helps but not as much as Precision.

I can see why. The trash mobs are going to die anyway. It's the named that need some thought and in Epic content every one of them has at least some Fort.

[SiliconShadow]

Mind point me to a link with the AC and To-Hit numbers? Anyone honestly. Last I seen was the graph/table provided before the switch and from all reports, even that changed before it went live

I do remember somewhere that reducing a NPC's AC was more beneficial than raising your To-Hit number (after a certain point, forgot where the diminishing return happened) but I never saw those tables.

O'well, eventually this stuff will be verified and placed in a conspicuous place for everyone to look at.

The basics of the adjustment was Dodge and armour values changes on different types of armour to reflect the armour.

The AC and to hit remain the same, but levels of AC have been adjusted.

By reading the release notes combat section of update 14 and the Armor Class Wiki page you can get an overview of the alterations.

Because destruction removes a % of the targets armour then your to hit and the targets armour value play a role into the benefits of each 1% of that reduction.

4% of 100AC target is 4ac, as we can clearly see 4ac is the breakpoint in a die roll, so for 100AC 4% reduction is a 5% addition to hit. When AC is below this, the reduced amount is only effective where it goes over the break AC breakpoint to the next die step on your to hit allowing you to hit on a lower number.

In practice:
Player: Has a 40 to hit and the target has 51AC
There is a 51% chance to hit the target which is rounded to the nearest die step on a D20 to 50% but the target has had a 4% reduction to AC which brings it down to 49AC bringing it up a 54% rounded to a 55%, so now he can hit on a 9 instead of a 10.

Player 2: Has a 45 to hit and is hitting the same target of 51AC, being under the same effect the target has an effective AC of 49AC Originally the target has a 58% chance to hit rounded to a 60%, but after the reduction in AC he has a 60% straight, however this does not effect his to hit score.

Player 3: He is totally underpowered for the instance and has a +20 to hit, however this same reduction changes his to hit only by 1% down and against the target his hit goes from 27~28% meaning he will hit on the same die step regardless.

As you can see the to hit chance is not linear, infact the higher the to hit the quicker you need more AC to be hit less than you did before. 10hit vs 10ac is 100% hit, 10hit vs 20ac is 65% to hit, 22hit vs 22 AC is a 90% to hit to 22AC vs 44hit is 45% to hit. This is because the to hit is modified by an additional 25%, meaning as to hit grows you need to scale the AC up at the same rate for it to be as effective. So with this in mind we can see you can 100% to hit 10ac with 6 to hit score, but it takes 21 to hit to hit a 20ac and to 100% hit a 70ac you need a hit score of 99. and a 150ac requires a 230 to hit to 100% hit all the time.

Dodge is a flat rate and doesn't scale like this, meaning 6% is more powerful than 3% no matter your level, but at lower levels AC is more important because it is more effective.

[B0ltdrag0n]

The basics of the adjustment was Dodge and armour values changes on different types of armour to reflect the armour.

The AC and to hit remain the same, but levels of AC have been adjusted.

By reading the release notes combat section of update 14 and the Armor Class Wiki page you can get an overview of the alterations.

Because destruction removes a % of the targets armour then your to hit and the targets armour value play a role into the benefits of each 1% of that reduction.

4% of 100AC target is 4ac, as we can clearly see 4ac is the breakpoint in a die roll, so for 100AC 4% reduction is a 5% addition to hit. When AC is below this, the reduced amount is only effective where it goes over the break AC breakpoint to the next die step on your to hit allowing you to hit on a lower number.

In practice:
Player: Has a 40 to hit and the target has 51AC
There is a 51% chance to hit the target which is rounded to the nearest die step on a D20 to 50% but the target has had a 4% reduction to AC which brings it down to 49AC bringing it up a 54% rounded to a 55%, so now he can hit on a 9 instead of a 10.

Player 2: Has a 45 to hit and is hitting the same target of 51AC, being under the same effect the target has an effective AC of 49AC Originally the target has a 58% chance to hit rounded to a 60%, but after the reduction in AC he has a 60% straight, however this does not effect his to hit score.

Player 3: He is totally underpowered for the instance and has a +20 to hit, however this same reduction changes his to hit only by 1% down and against the target his hit goes from 27~28% meaning he will hit on the same die step regardless.

As you can see the to hit chance is not linear, infact the higher the to hit the quicker you need more AC to be hit less than you did before. 10hit vs 10ac is 100% hit, 10hit vs 20ac is 65% to hit, 22hit vs 22 AC is a 90% to hit to 22AC vs 44hit is 45% to hit. This is because the to hit is modified by an additional 25%, meaning as to hit grows you need to scale the AC up at the same rate for it to be as effective. So with this in mind we can see you can 100% to hit 10ac with 6 to hit score, but it takes 21 to hit to hit a 20ac and to 100% hit a 70ac you need a hit score of 99. and a 150ac requires a 230 to hit to 100% hit all the time.

Dodge is a flat rate and doesn't scale like this, meaning 6% is more powerful than 3% no matter your level, but at lower levels AC is more important because it is more effective.

Your assessment is correct in spirit and numbers but not entirely accurate in math as you can never hit 100% of the time.

The forumla for the closest thing to autohitting is 95%=(tohit+10.5)/(2* target AC) +25% for players assuming weapon proficiency.

rewritten:

1.4*Target AC -10.5 = Needed to hit Score.

[Teh_Troll]

1.4*Target AC -10.5 = Needed to hit Score.

After seeing this in action for over a year . . . all i have to say is there is no way in hell the formula actually works like this.