Tempest - OTWF, TWB and TWD

[Nimulos]

I just wanted to know wether the Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Blocking and Two Weapon Defense feats are worth taking.

Oversized - Of course it depends on the playstyle, in my case I have started a Valenar Elf pure Tempest and plan to take this just because of double wielding scimitar of doom. Aside from the fact that I will take it just for the role, how good a choice is it? And when would I take it? What cases are there where this feat would be a good choice? Human with extra feat Khopesh prof? Why would I take it in what general cases and why not?

Two Weapon Blocking - Are the two extra DR when blocking worth it? In what cases (not)?

Two Weapon Defense - 1 AC and 5 PRR are not worth it, are they?

[Teh_Troll]

You're only gonna need this for a few more weeks.

TWD is the best option, maybe Lightning Reflexes as I think that still works.

[Nimulos]

You're only gonna need this for a few more weeks.

Because of the upcoming update?

TWD is the best option, maybe Lightning Reflexes as I think that still works.

I assume you are talking about the feats needed fot Tempest III, wich was not the point of my question. I just want to know how viable the various feats are themselves, not as prerequisites for anything. Why is TWD better than OTWF?

[Brunhildha]

<snip>
Why is TWD better than OTWF?

OTWF removes the penalty to hit with a heavy weapon your offhand. Note, it does NOT affect your offhand damage. But at high level you are likely to be hitting on a 2 anyway, so it has no effect. Even when it does ( high AC or Fort mobs) there are some tasty short-swords and kukris around so it is easy to switch to a light offhand weapon when required.

AC and PRR are useful these days, so TWD helps a little. But blocking? When did you last block in an actual fight? Keep swinging and kill it quicker!

Having said that, I would only use TWD if I didn't need the feat for something important.

[Inoukchuk]

OTWF removes the penalty to hit with a heavy weapon your offhand. Note, it does NOT affect your offhand damage. But at high level you are likely to be hitting on a 2 anyway, so it has no effect. Even when it does ( high AC or Fort mobs) there are some tasty short-swords and kukris around so it is easy to switch to a light offhand weapon when required.

AC and PRR are useful these days, so TWD helps a little. But blocking? When did you last block in an actual fight? Keep swinging and kill it quicker!

Having said that, I would only use TWD if I didn't need the feat for something important.

I don't entirely agree. With the changes to the combat system most toons still see glancing blows on rolls below about 5. OTWF is a significant increase in too hit, like +4 or +6 to each hand, so it's worth it IMO. The other 2, no chance. As was stated, there is rarely if ever an occasion to be blocking, especially as a TWF (and if you feel like you will, just have a shield to swap in). And no, 1 AC and 5 PRR are not worth a feat, not by a mile.

My 12 rng / 8 ftr has around 21 feats before I TR'd, and still wanted about 5 more.... so I know there are no shortage of great and important feats to take.

[Dandonk]

I think the value depends on what you are running/what level you are.

OTWF is +2 to hit with both main hand and off hand. Under the new non-D&D combat system we've been burdened with, this will make a difference at lower levels (1-10 maybe), but very little difference at epic levels.

TWD give +1 AC (which is only useful at the very lowest of levels), and +5 PRR which is only useful at the very highest levels (especially if you do EE, as the damage there is high).

Lightning Reflexes can be nice at all level 9+ ranger in order to get the evasion to work (even) better.

I would never, ever, take Two Weapon Blocking. The bonus is simply too situational for a feat slot.

[moo_cow]

I don't entirely agree. With the changes to the combat system most toons still see glancing blows on rolls below about 5. OTWF is a significant increase in too hit, like +4 or +6 to each hand, so it's worth it IMO. The other 2, no chance. As was stated, there is rarely if ever an occasion to be blocking, especially as a TWF (and if you feel like you will, just have a shield to swap in). And no, 1 AC and 5 PRR are not worth a feat, not by a mile.

My 12 rng / 8 ftr has around 21 feats before I TR'd, and still wanted about 5 more.... so I know there are no shortage of great and important feats to take.

OTWF does not do anything, when they changed the to hit anyone should be able to hit on a roll of 2.

[SiliconShadow]

Rubbish in EE I have had a miss on 4 with a +71 roll, to hit is VERY important end game.

[unbongwah]

Of the feats listed, I prefer TWD for +5 PRR, which stacks w/Tempest PRR; however, the drawback is it requires base DEX 15 and with Turbine dropping the D/M/SA pre-reqs for Tempest (at least in the alpha), I expect to see a lot of DEX-dumped Tempests in the near future (possibly w/pally splashes to help make up the Reflex saves). OTWF is effectively +2 to-hit (from -4/-4 to -2/-2 presuming hvy weapons in both hands); that's not enough to make a difference if you're really having trouble hitting things. I'd rather have Precision so I can toggle between it and Power Atk. I don't bother with most of the save-boosting feats, inc. Lightning Reflexes; again, I'd rather take a pally splash for Divine Grace if I really think my saves need the boost.

[Dandonk]

Rubbish in EE I have had a miss on 4 with a +71 roll, to hit is VERY important end game.

EDIT: SiliconShadow is right, below is misleading.

Missing on a 4 doesn't mean +2 to hit is meaningful.

With even a mob AC of 50, the +2 will give you +2% to hit - or hitting on one lower dice roll 40% of the time, since player to hit is rounded off. The rest of the time, you'll notice no difference. And it only gets worse from there, as AC rises.

The value of to hit in high level content is exceedingly low. The fact that you are missing on more than a natural one should not mislead you into thinking that adding a few bonuses to hit will make any difference you can notice.

EDIT: With a miss on a 4 and a +71, let's see...

71/2*AC + 20% is the to hit chance. Which is at most 80%, corresponding to a miss on a 4. If it is less than 80%, the AC of the mob is higher, but let's go with 80%.

71/2*AC + .2 = .8
=> 35.5/AC = .6
=> AC = 59.167

So, the mob has an AC of at least 59. Which means it's even worse than my example above.

[Teh_Troll]

Rubbish in EE I have had a miss on 4 with a +71 roll, to hit is VERY important end game.

To-hit is 32 flavors of broken. You could have had +91 to-hit and you still would have crazed.

[unbongwah]

EE is 32 flavors of broken.

"FTFY," as the kids say...

[Fedora1]

I don't entirely agree. With the changes to the combat system most toons still see glancing blows on rolls below about 5.

Glancing blows? That is for two handed weapons. With two weapon fighting you never see glancing blows, so oversized two weapon fighting won't apply to glancing blows anyway. Perhaps I misunderstood your post.

[unbongwah]

I think he meant grazing hits, not glancing blows.

[Fedora1]

I agree that blocking is a waste in most cases.

So between oversize and defence, you might take oversize early and switch it for defence around mid level.

[Teh_Troll]

I think he meant grazing hits, not glancing blows.

Nobody gets that right

[Teh_Troll]

I agree that blocking is a waste in most cases.

So between oversize and defence, you might take oversize early and switch it for defence around mid level.

On what planet do you need the to-hit bonus in low levels?

[SiliconShadow]

Missing on a 4 doesn't mean +2 to hit is meaningful.

With even a mob AC of 50, the +2 will give you +2% to hit - or hitting on one lower dice roll 40% of the time, since player to hit is rounded off. The rest of the time, you'll notice no difference. And it only gets worse from there, as AC rises.

The value of to hit in high level content is exceedingly low. The fact that you are missing on more than a natural one should not mislead you into thinking that adding a few bonuses to hit will make any difference you can notice.

EDIT: With a miss on a 4 and a +71, let's see...

71/2*AC + 20% is the to hit chance. Which is at most 80%, corresponding to a miss on a 4. If it is less than 80%, the AC of the mob is higher, but let's go with 80%.

71/2*AC + .2 = .8
=> 35.5/AC = .6
=> AC = 59.167

So, the mob has an AC of at least 59. Which means it's even worse than my example above.

Yes it's 2% when you calculate it like that and 2% would still be very important at that attack speed work out the accumulative benefit over 133 attacks per minute of haste boost tempest III which also will soon be more with the added double strike in the new tree ref DDO Wiki. (note your formula is wrong its (ToHit + 10.5) / (TargetAC * 2) + 25% but it still works out at 1~3% depending on the hit and ac involved the higher the target AC the lower the deviation)

However it isn't quite that simple as the to hit is rounded to the closest 5%, meaning a 2 different can mean 0% or a 5% difference to hit. The breakpoints are every 4 to hit vs AC.

This penalty can therefore become quite significant against anything that has equal or higher AC than your to hit, the difference is the same as 10% of the targets AC score.

In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.

Yes it's significant.

[Dandonk]

Yes it's 2% when you calculate it like that and 2% would still be very important at that attack speed work out the accumulative benefit over 133 attacks per minute of haste boost tempest III which also will soon be more with the added double strike in the new tree ref DDO Wiki. (note your formula is wrong its (ToHit + 10.5) / (TargetAC * 2) + 25% but it still works out at 1~3% depending on the hit and ac involved the higher the target AC the lower the deviation)

However it isn't quite that simple as the to hit is rounded to the closest 5%, meaning a 2 different can mean 0% or a 5% difference to hit. The breakpoints are every 4 to hit vs AC.

This penalty can therefore become quite significant against anything that has equal or higher AC than your to hit, the difference is the same as 10% of the targets AC score.

In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.

Yes it's significant.

Hmm, I made a spreadsheet with the numbers, trying to prove you wrong. I messed around with a lot of numbers, but it does seem like your case is pretty general in effect. I still loathe the new system (besides which, it has a load of bugs), but it it not as bad with to hit as I thought.

Will have to amend my position on this. OTWF is indeed still a good choice. I let myself be misled by a simplistic calculation, and this led to a wrong conclusion.

Good catch, and thank you for putting this straight

[SiliconShadow]

Hmm, I made a spreadsheet with the numbers, trying to prove you wrong. I messed around with a lot of numbers, but it does seem like your case is pretty general in effect. I still loathe the new system (besides which, it has a load of bugs), but it it not as bad with to hit as I thought.

Will have to amend my position on this. OTWF is indeed still a good choice. I let myself be misled by a simplistic calculation, and this led to a wrong conclusion.

Good catch, and thank you for putting this straight

No worries, I had to work it out because I had it on my char and needed to see if I had to feat swap. Turns out it's not a bad dps skill for oversized weapons.

Next on agenda: Do I keep PA and Precision in my tempest? This is a hard one.