Lookin for tank build for newbie group

[Bajjani]

Have access to 32 point build - from my knowledge in the past it use to be monk/pally were good tanks - I don't know how much end game we'll really focus on doing because a lot of their characters I'm offering suggestions but basically letting them realize some things just aren't good and testing the chars themselves.

I was also thinkin about playin another Helli but I don't know how well I'd be able to tank - didn't seem to have too much of an issue on my last one and enjoyed playing him -

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[unbongwah]

If we're talking classic S&B tanks, I prefer either pure fighter or pal 18 / monk 2 builds.

Fighter 20 (SD III)
Pros: lots of feats to customize your build, better DPS than pallies
Cons: no inherent self-sufficiency, low Reflex & Will saves

Paladin 18 / monk 2 (DoS III)
Pros: Evasion, higher saves than pure ftrs (Divine Grace), better self-sufficiency (buffs, LoH, CSW), aura helps out nearby party members
Cons: much fewer feats than ftrs, forcing some tough choices as far as DPS vs. tanking vs. self-healing (metamagics); loses pally capstone

What do you have access to, in terms of races, tomes, etc.?

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Realize that Tanks are not useful in most zerg groups and in most pug content...but in a static group with team play, he will be integral.

So for a TANK build, I'd advise 18 fighter 2 rogue....light armor evasion tank with Stalwart Defender III.
With so many more feats than a paladin and ~the same defense and threat gen, it's a WAY better option imo.

With a 32 point build, I'd recommend the following stats:
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12 ....+3 tomes would really help. All 5 pts for levelups whereever you want...I'd probably go Str.
Take Rogue at 1st level and again anytime after lvl7 but before lvl11 (+2 int tome used)...that second level rogue gets your evasion.

Realize the DC's for trip or stunning blow or the like do not work with this build, so don't spend any feats nor enhancements toward them.
Focus on tanking and evasion and DPS gear/feats/enhancements.

Int is high for skill points and of course Combat Expertise. **IF not wanting the extra skill points, drop it down considerably and spend those points elsewhere...just make sure you will reach a 13 Int so you can obtain the CE feat.

Skill points with a starting 14 int and +2 tome at lvl 7--you will have enough to max Intimidate, UMD, Balance, and one other...maybe Pick Lock. You should also be able to spend 10 points in each of Jump and Swim with the extra rogue skill points. With your evasion, you can spot the traps with your face :-)

[unbongwah]

So for a TANK build, I'd advise 18 fighter 2 rogue....light armor evasion tank with Stalwart Defender III.

The main drawback to splashing a fighter is losing the capstone (+10% doublestike), which is a significant chunk of DPS; and S&B tanks need all the DPS boosts they can get. Splashing a pally costs you their DPS capstone, too, but they still get Zeal (10% doublestrike), which is more important. The main drawback to adding Evasion to a fighter is they have low base Reflex saves, so it's a challenge to get their saves high enough to make Evasion useful. You also give up some AC & PRR by switching from hvy to lt armor.

[Charononus]

Many of the raid tanks i've seen are going 18fighter 2pally to get divine grace for better saves while still getting a full prc and all the prr of heavy armor. This will probably be completely different when the ep hits.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

The main drawback to splashing a fighter is losing the capstone (+10% doublestike), which is a significant chunk of DPS; and S&B tanks need all the DPS boosts they can get. Splashing a pally costs you their DPS capstone, too, but they still get Zeal (10% doublestrike), which is more important. The main drawback to adding Evasion to a fighter is they have low base Reflex saves, so it's a challenge to get their saves high enough to make Evasion useful. You also give up some AC & PRR by switching from hvy to lt armor.

I think you're suggestion of 2 pally is a great one...especially for a player thats not yet geared for evasion...it's soooo much easier to gear for what typical tanks gear for (heavy armor, shield, weapon) and teh 2 pally really ups their saves.

I will say though, mitigating incoming spell dmg is HUGE as a tank. If ALL a tank can mitigate is incoming PHysical damage then, imo, that tank is really lacking in 1/2 of all encounters. With your 2 pally suggestion, he could reach good reflex saves which in turn will negate up to half of spell damage, which is good. But with a bit of research and farming, an evasion gear setup and good reflex saves can be accomplished on a 2 rogue or 2 monk splash...where evasion will negate (excluding dots) 100% of most incoming spell damage. And with really good gear and setup, they can reach AC in the ~120's and PRR in the ~150's along with the high reflex and evasion.

Regarding DPS on a tank, I disagree. The tank job is to grab and mainting who the bad-guys are targeting and to mitigate incoming dmg so a healer can maintain the groups health (basically focus on the tank and spot heal the others) ...If the tank can do that and make it so the friendly healer doesnt deplete the blue-bar before getting to the next shrine, then success.

So my thought on tanking...losing 10% doublestike is meh. OTHERS in the party are doing the main damage.

Again, if in a group of experienced DDO players, over 95% of content really doesn't need a tank--each player should be able to mitigate dmg and self heal to the point of helping that friendly healer.

[unbongwah]

Threat is based on DPS: more DPS -> more threat -> holding aggro longer. There are various threat bonuses (e.g., defensive stances, racial amp, Intim, gear, etc.), but you still need DPS to hold aggro. "Intimiturtling" is a thing of the past.

So, while there may be good reasons to give up the ftr capstone, any DPS loss is also a threat loss; that has to be factored into one's consideration when making a tank.

E.g., I'm leveling a dwarf ftr 12 / pal 6 / monk 2 build (SD II / KotC or HotD I). Pally 6 provides Divine Grace, fear & disease immunity, Divine Righteousness (which stacks w/SD defensive stance), Smite, Divine Favor, Might, Sacrifice. Monk 2 provides 2 feats (so I only lose 2 vs pure ftr), Evasion, and +3 to saves. Basically, I'm hoping the survivability bonuses from pally + monk make up for the DPS & threat loss of not having SD III + the capstone. I'm also counting on being able to go Dwarven Defender when the Enhancement overhaul is finally done so I still gain full SD benefits. We'll see how that goes...

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Threat is based on DPS: more DPS -> more threat -> holding aggro longer. There are various threat bonuses (e.g., defensive stances, racial amp, Intim, gear, etc.), but you still need DPS to hold aggro. "Intimiturtling" is a thing of the past.

So, while there may be good reasons to give up the ftr capstone, any DPS loss is also a threat loss; that has to be factored into one's consideration when making a tank.

E.g., I'm leveling a dwarf ftr 12 / pal 6 / monk 2 build (SD II / KotC or HotD I). Pally 6 provides Divine Grace, fear & disease immunity, Divine Righteousness (which stacks w/SD defensive stance), Smite, Divine Favor, Might, Sacrifice. Monk 2 provides 2 feats (so I only lose 2 vs pure ftr), Evasion, and +3 to saves. Basically, I'm hoping the survivability bonuses from pally + monk make up for the DPS & threat loss of not having SD III + the capstone. I'm also counting on being able to go Dwarven Defender when the Enhancement overhaul is finally done so I still gain full SD benefits. We'll see how that goes...

Your build looks fun and solid, but full of mandatory clickies--some of which take forever in animation and only last a minute. If using those that have the long animation, then that's a lose of DPS at least on par with losing the 10% capstone.

Agreed on "Intimiturtling" being a thing of the past. For the most part, as long as the SD or DOS is attacking while tanking, they will not have much problem holding agro.

To dive deeper on holding agro, it's been my experience (pre u14) that DOS tanks I've witnessed tended to lose agro from full-DPS fighters/barbs even with a 60-second head-start. I'm unsure if they were just built/played wrong, but I have not seen that on a SD tank. Post u14, I still see this with DOS in FOT runs, but haven't seen or paid attention to SD tanks...so can't say where SD stands now. I'll have to break mine out for a few weeks to test...on second thought, I'll hold off on that until the expansion.

...and then their's the bursting/dotting/dmg-spamming casters-----where a head-start is needed (usually the cast was curtious/smart enough to hold back a minute).

[unbongwah]

Your build looks fun and solid, but full of mandatory clickies--some of which take forever in animation and only last a minute. If using those that have the long animation, then that's a lose of DPS at least on par with losing the 10% capstone.

The trick is to activate pally buffs just before the fight starts, so as to minimize that downtime. Of course, if the fight lasts longer than my clickies do...

So yeah, one of the drawbacks - to my build and pally tanks in general - is you have a bunch of short-term buffs (Divine Favor, Righteousness, Might, etc.); and if they run out mid-fight, it can take a while to get them going again, during which you're not DPSing and might lose aggro. By comparison, SD tanks usually just have Haste Boost and possibly Versatility (Dmg Boost) to worry about. That's part of why I think ftr tanks are easier to play for first-timers (fewer things to micromanage) if you're running with a healer at all times (or have monstrous stacks of CSW pots ); but pally tanks are more self-sufficient and easier to solo once you know what you're doing.