Specific Help Needed with SP Calculations Between 20 Sorc and 18/2 with Paladin.

[Clemeit]

Aight, so I'm super torn between two builds for my second life sorcerer.
A little insight to where I'm coming from... Last life (my first life) was a 32 pt build pure sorcerer, level 25 Shiradi Champ using twilight/set, well you know the deal. I was amazed at my glorious Spell Points, sitting non-buffed at 4,172, which I believe was decent for a first lifer. So my second life came along, and I was confronted with two options. Either (1) go pure sorcerer again, gaining even more to my 'uber sp' and then probably sit at... meh about 4,300, or (2) I could substitute my last two levels for paladin gaining charisma bonus to saves and (hopefully?) more HP.

So I did some amazing calculations and came up with... well, absolutely nothing. I used multiple character planners, and none of them even got my first life SP corerctly, even when gear / set bonuses / feats + enhancements were factored in. This kinda scared me a little but I decided to try to calculate the difference in SP between my second life 20 or 18/2. Not the ACTUAL SP, just the difference (so this isn't going to use the Endless Faith +10% cause that would screw it up).

So the problem is, number crunching using the wiki (simply using the base SP gained from 20 sorcerer (1730) and 18 sorcerer (1485)) didn't at all match up with the number difference coming from the character gens. Am I missing something or are the char gens just not working like they are supposed to?
According to the base SP from the Wiki, missing out on two levels or sorcerer would give me a loss of 245 SP. Great, not terrible, but the char gens are showing a greater loss. Also, do I *gain* SP from the two levels of Paladin at all? Do I get the base SP that two paladin would have (132 SP with 32 charisma according to the wiki)?
From the wiki:

In addition, these bonus spell points are obtained even for classes whose level would not normally be high enough to cast spells; for instance, a level 9 Cleric / level 1 Paladin with 20 Wis would gain (9+1)*5 (i.e. 50) bonus spell points from the single Paladin level.

I would lose 245 and gain 132, for a net loss of 113. Taking into account the fact I took the PL:Arcane Prodigy for 135 SP and have the PL:Sorc for 20, that net loss of 113 turns into a net gain of 42. So I gain a charisma bonus to saves, and I will still have 42 more Spell Points over last life, even with 2 levels of paladin (That is... if this is correct. If not, I will be at a loss of SP, a completely unknown amount, and dipping below 4k will NOT be what I want.)

So therein lies my question. What would I loss from not taking those last two sorcerer levels? Would I gain any from the paladin levels? What is the total loss/gain?

[Syllph]

From the wiki: A Sorcerer also gets bonus spell points from his Charisma modifier. Sorcerers also gain double the spell points from items. However only pure sorcerers get this bonus. Multi-classed sorcerers get a percentage of the bonus based on how pure they are. EG: a 18/2 Sorcerer/Paladin will get only 190% from SP items.

Feel free to do the math, but you will loose out on more SP than you thought.

-Syllph

[Clemeit]

From the wiki: A Sorcerer also gets bonus spell points from his Charisma modifier. Sorcerers also gain double the spell points from items. However only pure sorcerers get this bonus. Multi-classed sorcerers get a percentage of the bonus based on how pure they are. EG: a 18/2 Sorcerer/Paladin will get only 190% from SP items.

Feel free to do the math, but you will loose out on more SP than you thought.

-Syllph

Was aware of the cut to the normal 2x multiplier for items, but thanks for mentioning this, I don't think I took it into consideration when posting.

Also, I recently did a test with a 6 Sorcerer / 1 Paladin to see if, when taking the paladin level, I would gain spell points or not. I didn't. So this led me into some further thoughts on why it was contradicting the wiki. So the conclusion I came to (and this may not be true for I couldn't find it anywhere on the forums, wiki, or in-game) is the only logical explanation and it makes perfect sense. The reason I won't gain SP from the level of paladin is that paladins don't use charisma for their spell points- they use wisdom. Therefore I was wrong when calculating in my charisma modifier for the two paladin levels' spell points because paladins use wisdom.

So for the future- if you wan't to still gain spell points on a caster when taking levels of paladin, you better have a high wisdom modifier! I guess this makes a cleric / paladin splash quite nice because you won't lose many SP from the levels of paladin you take.

As the spell point hog I am, I will no longer be going with 18/2. I just don't want to take such a massive spell point hit >.> The ~400 SP hit you'd take is another 100 magic missiles you could be firing off :P

[Iaga]

I'd have to log on and check as i have an 18/2 and pure 20 sorc. The pure sits at a little over 4,100 SP and the split 3,400 [but the split hasn't worked his way over to EA for the SP buff while the pure has - the pure is an air sorc with cha max'd while the split is a shiradi with much lower cha because it doesn't matter nearly as much - the pure also has better gear ...]

If it matters, your ballpark of ~400 less is likely pretty close to reality.

Having said that - shiradis are best in EE content, where saves are huge. I think your decision should be based not on SP but what content you play. If you're in EE most of the time, the split is likely worth the loss of SP. Anything else, run pure!

[Axjl]

In EE Tor and most of gianthold, you need saves of 60-62 to fail only on 1, the traps in the swim in EE Cruicible have DC of about 69, so if you ask me the loss of 400 sp is worth it, with ship buffs, luck item and enough charisma you can get all saves above 60

[Inoukchuk]

In EE Tor and most of gianthold, you need saves of 60-62 to fail only on 1, the traps in the swim in EE Cruicible have DC of about 69, so if you ask me the loss of 400 sp is worth it, with ship buffs, luck item and enough charisma you can get all saves above 60

Except that he isn't going 2 paladin, he's going 2 monk and paly dille, which caps at +5 to saves. +5 to saves means... next to nothing for a sorc when it comes to reflex, and even willpower if not using Force of Personality.

This is why it's far more popular for sorc to splash paladin and wiz (who can take insightful reflexes) to splash monk or rogue. Few people are willing to lose 4 sorc levels to splash both monk and pally.

As for why you aren't getting SP from paladin, it's mostly because a level 2 paladin can't cast spells and doesn't get SP. They gain both at level 4, though the SP is only like 20 + bonus based on wisdom.

As someone else pointed out it's really a Boolean decision: yes I want to do EE and be a shiradi caster, or no I don't want to be a shiradi caster and therefor don't really need the saves that badly. Sad that casters are now painted into that hole.

[thesnoman]

Except that he isn't going 2 paladin, he's going 2 monk and paly dille ...

I don't see this anywhere in his original post - I see 20 Sorc vs 18/2 Sorc/Pal

First of all - are you going Shiradi again? If yes, the choice is clear - 18/2 - hands down - saves are your friend and your best saves are with 18/2

If you're going Draconic/Magister with an element in mind, you're probably still better off with 18/2, but the choice is tougher...even more so when the new enhancement pass comes.

It also depends on your play style...do you like spamming MM/FM or would you rather blast away with your element of choice?

I still think 18/2 will be the best choice if you're planning on soloing EE content - that's been my experience - and when the new enhancement pass comes, you lose the old Sorc capstone anyway. (And you'll lost some SP, but the trade-off is worth it - you'll see...)