You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[BigErkyKid]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

[bartharok]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

Since a game is supposed to be fun, flavor reasons are th eonly reason to play them in the first place. If you play the game to get uber, you have lost something on the way in my opinion.

[BigErkyKid]

Since a game is supposed to be fun, flavor reasons are th eonly reason to play them in the first place. If you play the game to get uber, you have lost something on the way in my opinion.

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

[Ayseifn]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

[Vint]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

This is the reason I have not been posting much here. Too many people that can't help but crying all the time.

Someone can "win" quicker with a flavor build than I can. This mimic event sucks. Turbine should make it so I don't have to pay a dime in game.

Why is it so hard for players to just play and not cry so much? These entitlement issues are over the top.

[sk3l3t0r]

the game will never be truly balanced IMO, what is balanced for heroics does not apply for epics. it;s basically two different games.

Players have different play styles and there are many types of players in the game. What one considers balanced, can be overpowered or gimp to another.

It's all a matter of perspective.

What the community may consider un-balanced can be balanced for Turbine. They may have different POVs on how the game is / should be played based on revenue targets are if the game is just enough fun to keep them playing, but not quite fun enough to incite players to want to pay for certain, "game balancing" conveniences or amenities.

Some groups of players may find the game is unbalanced because there is no end game, others may find it unbalanced because the Warlock will nullify their completionist build, and so on..

The problem with balance is that it doesn't work well with change. Change in the game occurs regularly with time (updates, revisions of mechanics and content, etc ...) and will un-balance one aspect while balancing another.

The game can be unblanced because we no longer have roles in parties because classes are all self sufficient now...it all depends on how you define balance is what it all comes down to.

[bartharok]

It is an old debate. Some people have fun playing competitively, others don't mind so much. No one is doing it "wrong". Usually, it is accepted that a balanced game caters to both publics, while one where some options are disproportionately better than others does not.

"Better" is realative. If something caters more to your playstyle, its better (for your playstyle). A game is balanced when it allows you to choose your own playstyle. If playing the game was well nigh impossible to play in any other way than one, then your point would be valid.

[BigErkyKid]

This is the reason I have not been posting much here. Too many people that can't help but crying all the time.

Someone can "win" quicker with a flavor build than I can. This mimic event sucks. Turbine should make it so I don't have to pay a dime in game.

Why is it so hard for players to just play and not cry so much? These entitlement issues are over the top.

You were right not to post, first you got to start reading. I am not whining that Andoris is doing great, I am just pointing out how a PM min maxer has to do melee DPS to stay competitive.

[Wh070aa]

This game is just not balanced whatsoever.

But yea, the wizards fall off endgame really hard.

I do more damige on my INT based Ranger, than on my int based wizard, with basically same gear(TRed, changed spell power stuff(negative/elemental for positive/switched out to deadly, sneak attack, and deception).

DPS is about the same, but the defense, range, speed and healing are better, and no resource management, or trap/spell problem.
End game casters are just weak.

Edit: to clarify, pure caster play style. You can make a primary caster that is okay. Just primary caster player is weaker than primary ranged, or primary melee. Still its in the middle, having primary tanker,buffer and primary healer below them.

[BigErkyKid]

A game is balanced when it allows you to choose your own playstyle.

Exactly. For you this might be completing most quests on whatever flavor build you choose, for others it is having the main archetypes be somehow at the same level of power everything considered, even if played differently.

Competitive players care about balance in that sense and this acknowledged by the devs. They claimed they understood it and were working on it. I am just pointing out that there are gross imbalances in place. To the point of the example, which I think is brutal.

[BigErkyKid]

The game can be unblanced because we no longer have roles in parties because classes are all self sufficient now...it all depends on how you define balance is what it all comes down to.

I draw the line at DC wizard casters having to melee red named mobs. It absurd.

[Sharktopus]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

When martial classes are all running in divine destinies.
When arcane classes are all running in primal destinies.
When your twists of fate offer more power and utility than your enhancements.
When your pet is doing more dps than you are.
When your ranger is a better healer than your healer.
When a wizard does more damage with a shuriken than with his spells.
Or when a shuriken does more damage than a heavy repeating crossbow.
When soloing is faster than having a balanced group.
When trash mobs do more damage than end bosses.
When barbarians and monks have a higher instakill DC than palemasters.

[BigErkyKid]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

+1.

I just pointed to one of the most absurd ones. You are right to put the emphasis on rogues. Have you seen the lama changes to rogues?

What happened, did the devs run out of OMPH with the paladin, barb and bard updates?

[Chai]

Yes the revamped classes/pre became more powerful. If we complain about that too much to the point where they have to nerf what they just revamped, there will be no overhead in place in which to make the other classes/pre they haven't revamped yet better than they are now.

+1.

I just pointed to one of the most absurd ones. You are right to put the emphasis on rogues. Have you seen the lama changes to rogues?

What happened, did the devs run out of OMPH with the paladin, barb and bard updates?

This is a prime example. They revamped bards. People complained it was too powerful. The nerf bat happened. Then paladins got their revamp. People complained it was too powerful. The nerf bat swung again.

So now there is less overhead in place to revamp the other classes, due to demanding nerfs of the first two revamped classes up front, rather than waiting for all classes to get revamped first, then comparing.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes the revamped classes/pre became more powerful. If we complain about that too much to the point where they have to nerf what they just revamped, there will be no overhead in place in which to make the other classes/pre they haven't revamped yet better than they are now.

I don't like the job they did with their upgrades. If that's where we would be heading, then I'd rather complain now before all classes are like this.

[Blackheartox]

Who cares about ballance at this point?
I tried to push for balllance amnd nerfs to long, all i learned from it is, people dont want ballance, they want fun from being powerful or being able to complete hardest quest with ease.
Play ddo because you like to chat with people, look at it like another fbook page that is somewhat based on dnd.
IF you want ballance and challenge play other games.

I suggest the dark soul series and dmc series (on hardest difficulty those games are hardcore)

[Chai]

I don't like the job they did with their upgrades. If that's where we would be heading, then I'd rather complain now before all classes are like this.

And that feedback is why they don't have the overhead to improve any other class as much as they did bards and paladins. They cant make rogues as good as post revamp paladin, because people complained until it got nerfed, and people still complain about them being OP after the nerf.

Comparing new paladin to old fighter and old rogue and demanding balance between new paladin and old fighter / old rogue takes away the over head to make new fighter and new rogue much better.

[bartharok]

Exactly. For you this might be completing most quests on whatever flavor build you choose, for others it is having the main archetypes be somehow at the same level of power everything considered, even if played differently.

Competitive players care about balance in that sense and this acknowledged by the devs. They claimed they understood it and were working on it. I am just pointing out that there are gross imbalances in place. To the point of the example, which I think is brutal.

For those seeking an edge, balance is impossible to achieve, since they will seek the edge until its found. And then spread it around, skewing the perception of what works or not.

[legendkilleroll]

doesnt seem like its continuing with the rogue changes, they arnt getting self heals like barbarians did

[BigErkyKid]

And that feedback is why they don't have the overhead to improve any other class as much as they did bards and paladins.

Good! That would be awesome. I DO NOT WANT all classes to be like pallies and barbs (or bards).