Some Thoughts to promote a discussion concerning the gap between new and old players

[Karavek]

My apologies to all first and foremost as this may become longwinded due to the need for much back and forth through my personal timeline of play here on DDO and the things I have seen turn off new players.

Recent threads talking about things like ship buffs, and their advantages for old time TR junkies vs the negative impact they can have on new players and the bar set for reasonable expectations of threats as well as things like DDOs deep layers of complexity when it comes to understanding such threats and the ways to counter them and the well known dif spike for most new players when they hit the lvl 12+ range have had me alot of late pondering more so about an MMO then I frankly like, and feel the need to try to vent these thoughts before they drive me to distraction beyond all reason.

Around the time MOTU was getting ready to go live, I had managed to bring 3 new players to DDO whom I will each give a first name to and as brief as possible abit of relevant background info for each.

Wes: Wes is among my oldest of friends having known him since we where in 1st grade, and a dice chucker as long as I have though we often see alot differently when it comes to our ideal PnP adventure arch types. He being more the years of epic struggle where I favor more a fast fun weekly episodic style.

He came to DDO much like alot of us old timers nhad, attracted by the D&D connection, from years of being a wow raid tanker through and through. So he was both an avid MMO player and vet PnP player of multiple editions.

He started with a basic throw away dwarf fighter cleric build to unlock drow asap when i explained how starting build points worked, and for someone mainly interested in playing a wizard they would give some of the best starting stats until unlocking the 32 point build. He was very adept at DDO having little trouble just as I had so many years before, learning DDOs house rules so to speak and working with them. He got that character to cap, but when he found that to really be optimal for what DDO die hards view as the end game raid scene he would need to destroy this otherwise perfectly fun to play character and either redo it exactly after many lives to get max spell pen and DCs to be seen as less then gimp he saw it as a big warning sign to just walk away. to him the TR system was beyond repulsive, and so one new would recruit who had all the potential any DDO die hard could as for as a player walked away with no regrets seeing his months and money spent subbing here as a waste, as he put it why sub to this niche game when he can go back to subbing on wow and a welcoming community that his first toon ever made years ago was a valued and often in demand tank not just by his guild but by virtually all who knew him there.

Josh: I have known josh since we where teens, he also was among my first circle of table top players so many years ago. He came to DDO with that experience but never having been an MMO or even single player rpg guy, For him DDO was a new and different way to try D&D and he to took to it like a duck to water, his own unorthodox but fun elven paladin archer that he turned ino a very fun to play AA who could self heal enough and had solid saves for a first life toon felt very confident soloing normal content well into the upper teens, it was only in the lvl 18+ range he really started to feel the lack in a first life toon. When i said the best thing I could offer in advice was to try and hit 20 and TR so he could have 32 base points and a past life feat to help add a bit more oomph he too was disgusted by the idea of throwing away his first character to just remake it with abit more oomph.

Finally there was Chel: She was new to table top gaming only a few years under her belt of 3E though we gave her a crash course in dabbling with all kinds of variations and even some older ed stufff to try to expand her tastes for the various ways they could work.

She also took to DDO very rapdily, but she especially exhibited many of the traits so many of us DDO old timers get frustrated by. She was so gung ho on being a heroic warrior with her barbarian she insisted on making for her first character that she frequently suffered defeat and frustration. She was very dependant on nannybots or a fellow player willing to watch her red bar, she just had 0 interest in it at first. Eventually she moved on from that first character but with great hesitation, i think alot of us know how attached we can be to first characters in an MMO and see walking away from them as some kind of failure that warrants leaving the game entirely, and after a bit she did, she didnt like not playing her first character and didnt like how dependant it was on others. Nor am I so wealthy in game as to keep several new comers well geared and potted.

One of the biggest links between these 3 I saw was an extreme loss of interest when they felt that first character was little more then a test dummy to help them learn to play. For each though for different reasons once that first character got mothballed or hit a point where TRing was the only real way to progress them further, they walked away with no second thoughts.

It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.

And I started to think that might be one of the things we old timers just accepted but also had a deep impact on our flow of new blood.

So I put it to all bluntly is it worth it to make a divide at character creation like starting build points. Although the differences might be minor still there is a noteable impact on new comers when they learn its only through extremely extended play that they can start with 36 stat points, and no way for a first character to start at such even through some contribution to turbine through the DDO store.

I personally have never felt the lack, 32 point builds and first life drow have always sufficed for me, but I started before we had the option to have more and saw them as additions. For new players they are instead like a blazing sign to just stay away, that the game is already old and certainly in its twilight years, and its highly unlikely enough time in its life still exist to warrant new players trying to undergo such a lengthy persuit.

Ive tried to think of some ways to update the system, from extrmes like just removing 28 point builds altogether and starting all evenly at the new standard of 36 points now upheld by the min max old timers and therefore became the standard new comers read about and want to be on par with in a reasonable time frame

Or perhaps a more alt friendly approach like when you get a character to 20 you unlock the next higher tier of bild points for your next character so as to not force players to throw away characters who already feel well developed.

Or maybe a third option like when you get a character to 20 you can choose the classic TR, the higher starting build points for the next toon made, or an inherent +2 stat increase on top of any and all others to a single stat of their choice( that would then lock out that character from TRing or perhaps simply lose that inherent bonus if TRing was chosen at a later date.

Im not really sure if any or all would help retain more new players but I do suspect there needs to be something thought of and done as at least for me the current system has cost me every friend ive tried bringing to the game, they all reach a point where the idea of TRing feels forced upon them and makes them walk away.

[Teh_Troll]

One of the biggest links between these 3 I saw was . . .

They built bad toons and had troubles later on?

it is an issue, very easy to gimp yourself in DDO.

The pre-built paths simply need to be less terrible and this will happen less. This is something Turbine should act upon, and no the Iconics are not a solution.

[Karavek]

They built bad toons and had troubles later on?

it is an issue, very easy to gimp yourself in DDO.

The pre-built paths simply need to be less terrible and this will happen less. This is something Turbine should act upon, and no the Iconics are not a solution.

No nothing about their builds was bad, it was more a case of just being lacking in what is needed. One must need to understand that new players will never see a difficulty setting if its connected to ANY form of character progression be it loot,xp, or favor or build points that feels locked out to first life toons played to the best of their ability will be a turn off to new players.

But then again since its you I know nothing you say is ever actually meant to be input your the very kind of player DDO needs to turn off not cater to

[ForumAccess]

From your story, it sounds more like the first two were more turned off because they had the idea of TRing pushed on them, when it isn't actually very important. At the time that level 20 was the cap you could get a first life character to have enough Spell Penetration to get the job done, past lives just meant that you could lower your feat and enhancement investment in it to achieve the same result. And now, even if you have sufficient Spell Pen you still can not reliably land your DC based spells in the harder eGH quests. As far as pure Paladin AAs go, well, even multi-TRed gimps are still gimped. There just isn't any synergy there.

It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.

Why should someone rolling up their first character be on 'equal footing' with someone who has been playing for years? If they were, then that would mean that there is nothing in the game to work towards. It is nothing like EVE Online, where new players do not have any ability, no matter how hard they try, to catch up to veteran players. They just need to learn the game and accumulate some gear. TRing is an entirely elective set of perks.

[cru121]

Perhaps your advice to TR their characters was wrong. They should have instead kept one character at cap to farm stuff and start another one, better built.

[Teh_Troll]

No nothing about their builds was bad, it was more a case of just being lacking in what is needed. One must need to understand that new players will never see a difficulty setting if its connected to ANY form of character progression be it loot,xp, or favor or build points that feels locked out to first life toons played to the best of their ability will be a turn off to new players.

What's the difference between "bad" and "lacking what was needed?" Not being snarky, it's a serious question.

I've been a new player, started with F2p.

My first toon . . . TERRIBLE!!! ZOMG was she bad, lousy awful.

Second toon . . . is over 3 years old and still level 13(?).

Third toon . . . was awesome. As were (most of) the ones that followed.

That first toon is now awesome many lives later.

You're over-valuing the advantages of PLs. Strong builds are fine on 32-points. Weak build are bad ever with 36. I've seen many people being awesome on 32/34 point builds. I've also seen terrible completionists.

But then again since its you I know nothing you say is ever actually meant to be input your the very kind of player DDO needs to turn off not cater to

You should listen to me, I'm friggin brilliant.

[Livmo]

My first life 28pt arti build rocks!

I don't see a need to TR or even LR or GR. with EDs.

Although I've only been playing since last Dec. I've come to realize allot of the game is about the skill of the person pushing the keys on the keyboard. I feel I still have a long journey ahead of me in learning the DDO. I have to admit I find the TR grind repugnent.

Sure folks still exclude me from PUGs, because I was chewie when I first got to L20. I needed gear and had no EDs started. Now with allot better gear and some capped EDs under my belt I can do more than some of the old timer multi-life builds. I range DPS, spot heal, and throw out the res when needed. I'm bufficer,healificer,blastificer, and ranged dps all in one package. And break out the melee when need be. However, I took great care in building my arti. Its my 3rd toon. I still play the others.

My build does not have any trouble with EH CitW and FoT. I've found with the right team of raid players (teamworkers) those raids are a breeze through. I haven't tried those on EE, yet, because I can't find any fellow crazy peeps to run it with.

For EE quests, the first fight in EE T0R still gives me a bit of trouble, but once past that I'm fine. When the giants 1st enter they like to mob me all at once : )) I only have a handful of EE T0Rs under my belt, because its hard to get into PUGs for it with no evasion and being a 1st life 28pt build.

The only quest I don't have completed on EE that is tough for my build is Outbreak. I get to just a sliver of life left on the end boss and then run out of gas each time. Maybe with Unyielding Sentinel maxed for the hp boost will put me over the top? I plan to try that.

I wanted to share my newbie thoughts, opinions, and observations. Any advice on running EE content would be most welcomed (especially Outbreak : )

[Hazelnut]

It left me wondering how many others might have left for the same kind of feeling. Of not being on truly equal footing at the point of character creation as old timers.

I am one of those, probably rare, new players. I've been playing for a week. One of the things I noticed is that I can unlock the 32 point build in the DDO store by simply buying it OR it unlocks when I get some amount of favor (like 1750 or some such). Since DDO is free-to-play, being able to buy the 32-point build instead of making a throw-away toon is pretty reasonable as long as the cost isn't that bad. At 1150 (on sale) point (with the optimum buy of about 100 points to the $), that's pretty expensive in my opinion but not unreasonable.

I chose the 28 points build first time intending to make a throw-away character to simply try the game. I've found that too many F2P games exist only to suck money out of you. The number of times a parent gets a $2000 bill because their kid is playing a "free" game on their iPad or iPhone is pretty shocking. So much so, that Apple is even making changes to the way their billing system works just to stop that sort of nonsense from happening.

I've been here a week. Made it to level 3. Figured out a couple of things I would like to change about my build already but I'm loath to toss her and start fresh spending another week to get back to level 3. But, more importantly, I won't be able to keep my name if I do that and I like my name. "Hazelnut" (only on Wayfinder) might be a cute and silly name but it comes from a previous game and I'm sort of attached to it. I do wish I could be Hazelnut on another server, though. I would be more willing to start fresh on a different world.

I do agree with your point that the divide between new players and old players is most likely far to big when they are both level 20. 4 extra points (28 vs 32) isn't that much. But 8 points (28 vs 36) is a much bigger divide and add to that a 36 point build has 2 or 3 (I forget the minimum) past life feats and your newcomer really is gimped and frustrated.

I have no idea if the folks at Turbine are reading this (your post) but I don't see why a game like DDO or any other MMO created in the last 10 years should need to die. What it needs is a major refresh to become DDO2. This could mean an entirely new client and would almost certainly involve new servers but could offer a nice incentive whereby someone on DDO can choose to inherit some of their toon from DDO onto the DDO2 server while making more balance play between old and new characters. It also gives the excuse for a big marketing push and advertising to bring in new player, or bring back players that have abandoned it (like your friends).

Then again, from what I'm reading something like that (although lacking the big marketing push and excitement) is happening already. Lots of complains on the forums about some upcoming release that is in beta. Lots of excitement about expansions being released. All it needs is a few TV ads or better Crackle and Hulu ads. In my view (as a new player) all the crabbing and complaining from oldbies about how their characters are going to be gimped because of the new enhancements system is a good sign. It might put the new and old on a more even footing.

One more thing: about me. Like your other friends, I've played PnP D&D, I play some single player RPGs (including the old PC versions of D&D), and I've dabbled in MMOs. I have the most fun in the building phase of a character. A level 20 with nowhere to go who can pretty much take on anything single handedly (except possibly a few rare baddies) isn't any fun anymore. So, in a way, I'm looking forward to True Reincarnation as a chance to be low level and have to watch the red bar and figure out how to hit the baddie without getting hit myself.

[Systern]

If you see TRing as a mechanic that synergizes with DDO's greatest strength: Trillions of build possibilities (some great, some Flavor of the month, some horrible), and retains the investment you made in getting BtC loot, it becomes more palatable. The past lives and copletionist feats are just gravy. They're nice, but it's not the point of TRing.

As you said, you make due with just first life champions and drow, and still manage to have fun. Presenting to any newbie that they have to be a powerplayer, they have to grind, and they have to make this game a chore will turn off anyone.


Think those three cases were not the fault of the product, but the salesman.

[danotmano1998]

A well written and thoughtful post, OP.

Being a veteran MMO gamer, I find that in DDO, as with any other game, there is a learning curve.
The first character (or first few sometimes!) are yes, basically throw-aways. I don't see this as being strictly part of DDO, it is, IMO, a common theme among any game like this.

As your experience and knowledge of the game grows, so too does your character development skills.
This is the main reason why I love DDO so much - you can build a complete failure. Or a partial one, for that matter. If everyone started off on perfectly equal footing, we would have a game like so many other MMO's, a cookie cutter everyone-is-exactly-the-same, nicely balanced bore fest. It is the very journey of learning from my mistakes that keeps me here. The "what if I did *this* this time?"

The TR thing is, IMO, a fantastic idea. It lets Turbine get more playability out of the same content. It lets players grow their same characters that they love into a better, faster, more powerful version. You don't have to hang up that guy or put him out to pasture. You have the OPTION to rebuild and keep all your hard earned gear, or build something else entirely.

Plus, DDO has a wonderful thing in a Lesser Resurrection, Feat Exchanges, and/or Enhancement respecs. You don't necessarily have to build perfect the first time, you can go back and tweak things, experiment, and redo.

- An alternate viewpoint

[Teh_Troll]

In my view (as a new player) all the crabbing and complaining from oldbies about how their characters are going to be gimped because of the new enhancements system is a good sign. It might put the new and old on a more even footing.

A silly statement like that shows you have much to learn grasshopper.

[Livmo]

I've been here a week. Made it to level 3. Figured out a couple of things I would like to change about my build already but I'm loath to toss her and start fresh spending another week to get back to level 3. But, more importantly, I won't be able to keep my name if I do that and I like my name. "Hazelnut" (only on Wayfinder) might be a cute and silly name but it comes from a previous game and I'm sort of attached to it. I do wish I could be Hazelnut on another server, though. I would be more willing to start fresh on a different world.

Hazelnut,

You're more than welcome to join us newbies on Sarlona. Hazelnut may be avail. there?

I'm still learning the game and I have several toons at various levels. Also, I'm in an assortment of guilds and officer in a few if you need a guild home on Sarlona as well.

It's my understanding from forums that Wayfinder is dying out so new people are started on that server to get more players on it. Sarlona might have more players to run with?

All the best,

Livmo

[Systern]

Hi! Welcome (sincerely )

I am one of those, probably rare, new players. I've been playing for a week. One of the things I noticed is that I can unlock the 32 point build in the DDO store by simply buying it OR it unlocks when I get some amount of favor (like 1750 or some such). Since DDO is free-to-play, being able to buy the 32-point build instead of making a throw-away toon is pretty reasonable as long as the cost isn't that bad. At 1150 (on sale) point (with the optimum buy of about 100 points to the $), that's pretty expensive in my opinion but not unreasonable.

You'll probably end up with the same opinion as I have, as a purely premium players (though I've paid for or earned practically all the content, except Warforged as I don't like em)...
Turbine gives VIP subscribers 500 TP a month, because of that, they have inflated prices on everything else. Their "microtransactions" aren't exactly micro...

I chose the 28 points build first time intending to make a throw-away character to simply try the game. I've found that too many F2P games exist only to suck money out of you. The number of times a parent gets a $2000 bill because their kid is playing a "free" game on their iPad or iPhone is pretty shocking. So much so, that Apple is even making changes to the way their billing system works just to stop that sort of nonsense from happening.

I've been here a week. Made it to level 3. Figured out a couple of things I would like to change about my build already but I'm loath to toss her and start fresh spending another week to get back to level 3. But, more importantly, I won't be able to keep my name if I do that and I like my name. "Hazelnut" (only on Wayfinder) might be a cute and silly name but it comes from a previous game and I'm sort of attached to it. I do wish I could be Hazelnut on another server, though. I would be more willing to start fresh on a different world.

I do agree with your point that the divide between new players and old players is most likely far to big when they are both level 20. 4 extra points (28 vs 32) isn't that much. But 8 points (28 vs 36) is a much bigger divide and add to that a 36 point build has 2 or 3 (I forget the minimum) past life feats and your newcomer really is gimped and frustrated.

Honestly, it's not the build points that make a difference. A class's primary attribute can be maxxed out with any amount of build points. The extra points go to shore up the weaknesses. Where the real divide between a new 1st life player and a veteran is, is in the loot. The convention these days is Elite Bravery Streaking and One-and-Done or farming choice high XP quests, so a 1st lifer will not have access to some of the powerful rarer drops that a TR has simply by virtue of levelling past the content quickly while the TR has had more opportunity to acquire it.

I have no idea if the folks at Turbine are reading this (your post) but I don't see why a game like DDO or any other MMO created in the last 10 years should need to die. What it needs is a major refresh to become DDO2. This could mean an entirely new client and would almost certainly involve new servers but could offer a nice incentive whereby someone on DDO can choose to inherit some of their toon from DDO onto the DDO2 server while making more balance play between old and new characters. It also gives the excuse for a big marketing push and advertising to bring in new player, or bring back players that have abandoned it (like your friends).

Then again, from what I'm reading something like that (although lacking the big marketing push and excitement) is happening already. Lots of complains on the forums about some upcoming release that is in beta. Lots of excitement about expansions being released. All it needs is a few TV ads or better Crackle and Hulu ads. In my view (as a new player) all the crabbing and complaining from oldbies about how their characters are going to be gimped because of the new enhancements system is a good sign. It might put the new and old on a more even footing.

One more thing: about me. Like your other friends, I've played PnP D&D, I play some single player RPGs (including the old PC versions of D&D), and I've dabbled in MMOs. I have the most fun in the building phase of a character. A level 20 with nowhere to go who can pretty much take on anything single handedly (except possibly a few rare baddies) isn't any fun anymore. So, in a way, I'm looking forward to True Reincarnation as a chance to be low level and have to watch the red bar and figure out how to hit the baddie without getting hit myself.

I think you might end up doing well here
If you choose to stay F2P, or wish to make minimal investments into the premium model, here's a few tips:
You get an additional TP bonus for certain favor milestones the first time you get them. You get them on each Server, so making a character and getting it to 100 favor on each server is lucrative. Some of the diehard F2Pers recommend buying Veteran status first to help expedite the favor farming.
True Hearts for TRing are fairly expensive in the store, but can be earned in game with Tokens of the Twelve. There's a limited amount of F2P Epic quests where you can get them however and so getting a pack like Demon Sands early is recommended if you want to TR. Note, Epic Gianthold doesn't actually drop these tokens, though its setting is in Eberron (weird, I know). The 1st 3 "must have" packs that have been recommended are Vale of Twilight, Demon sands, and Gianthold. These three packs give good xp and loot, and you'll find that in the 18-20 region XP dries up for F2P players. Demon Sands is the only one of the three where you can get Tokens to get a Heart.
http://DDOWiki.com is your friend. Turbine's documentation is horribly lax and only gets worse since the player community maintains the wiki.
Wayfinder is the lowest population server. While I think DDO is more of a Multiplayer Action-RPG than an MMO, It's still more fun with friends. Don't be afraid to try another server.

[bluejadex]

Being a veteran MMO gamer, I find that in DDO, as with any other game, there is a learning curve.
The first character (or first few sometimes!) are yes, basically throw-aways. I don't see this as being strictly part of DDO, it is, IMO, a common theme among any game like this.

As your experience and knowledge of the game grows, so too does your character development skills.
This is the main reason why I love DDO so much - you can build a complete failure. Or a partial one, for that matter. If everyone started off on perfectly equal footing, we would have a game like so many other MMO's, a cookie cutter everyone-is-exactly-the-same, nicely balanced bore fest. It is the very journey of learning from my mistakes that keeps me here. The "what if I did *this* this time?"

The TR thing is, IMO, a fantastic idea. It lets Turbine get more playability out of the same content. It lets players grow their same characters that they love into a better, faster, more powerful version. You don't have to hang up that guy or put him out to pasture. You have the OPTION to rebuild and keep all your hard earned gear, or build something else entirely.

Plus, DDO has a wonderful thing in a Lesser Resurrection, Feat Exchanges, and/or Enhancement respecs. You don't necessarily have to build perfect the first time, you can go back and tweak things, experiment, and redo.

- An alternate viewpoint

Pretty much agree with you here. One of the things I disliked about WoW was how cookie cutter the characters seemed to be (at least compared to DDO). You're pigeon-holed into a few choices and it gets really old/boring.

That's one of my fears with the new enhancement system... It seems like it's going down the path (though not quite as bad?) as WoW - less options, more class builds that will be similar (in part, this is due to the requirement to spend a certain amount of points in a tree to unlock "higher" enhancements, imo).

I'm not as new as some of the others that have posted here (I started in 2011), but the idea of TRing didn't bother me. In some ways, it was a chance to try out a different class without taking up one of my character slots... And I knew I didn't *have* to TR, but I wanted to. My first character got TR'd, but the second character I got to level 20+ is remaining high level for now...I really enjoy playing her as a cleric.

With my first character I was able to get into a static group and that helped a lot. Right now, though, I don't have a static group, per se.

The biggest turn offs for me (particularly when I was new) were when LFMs ended up being only for people who want to zerg or required you to "know" the quest. How is a new player (or one who simply hasn't run the quest before or hasn't run it recently) supposed to know the quest? If there's a new player who doesn't know the quest and doesn't have a static group, it can be difficult to find a group willing to take you on. There are also some players who are...difficult. If a new player makes one mistake, they get constantly harassed by some. Or, for example, I was playing my cleric at a lower level...I knew I had to conserve my sp as there were no shrines, so I wasn't healing people up to max hp all the time and one person ended up going around a corner....that person died as I couldn't get to him in time. The player who died wasn't really upset, but someone else gave me a hard time about it. Not exactly something that makes one want to stick around.

Just my two cents...

[Teh_Troll]

How is a new player (or one who simply hasn't run the quest before or hasn't run it recently) supposed to know the quest?

Run it themselves on normal or casual?

Google it and find a walkthrough?

Should vets chew their food for them as well?

I don't mean to sound callous, but you learn nothing if you're a new player and you join a group of vets who crush the quest for you. Throw up your own LFMs and actually LEARNING how to play the game by PLAYING the game is the best experience you can have.

[Firepants]

"Evening the playing field" between new players and old is probably one of the stupidest, most regressive ideas one could have. Look, if you work at a job for years and get promoted up, do you think your job should be easily filled by a kid just out of college? No. Why would you expect that people who have worked on their characters for years should be on even footing with some chump who just signed up and hasn't dropped a dime on the game? Foolish.

[bluejadex]

Run it themselves on normal or casual?

Google it and find a walkthrough?

Should vets chew their food for them as well?

I don't mean to sound callous, but you learn nothing if you're a new player and you join a group of vets who crush the quest for you. Throw up your own LFMs and actually LEARNING how to play the game by PLAYING the game is the best experience you can have.

Running it themselves on normal/casual might work, depending on the quest and/or if they can find others to join a group they put up. From what I've seen, there aren't a lot of people willing to run a quest with people who don't know it. The person that got me into playing initially helped, but since he had been away from DDO there were some quests he didn't really remember either and many people don't seem to want to run the quests with those who don't know it.

New players could look for a walkthrough, if they think to look for one in the first place. If I'm running a quest for the first time or don't remember it, I may look one up to refresh my memory, but reading a walkthrough isn't the same as knowing the quest like the back of your hand.

I'm just saying these are some things that *could* turn new players away. I don't disagree that they should be learning/playing the game... However, if they experience either 1. others harassing them if they make a mistake, 2. not finding LFMs that don't require a player to know the quest, or 3. can't get anyone to join their LFMs, those *can* be turn offs. If you're not in an active guild or static group of some sort, it can take awhile to get a group together, or you may not find/get people to join one at all.

[Teh_Troll]

Running it themselves on normal/casual might work, depending on the quest and/or if they can find others to join a group they put up. From what I've seen, there aren't a lot of people willing to run a quest with people who don't know it. The person that got me into playing initially helped, but since he had been away from DDO there were some quests he didn't really remember either and many people don't seem to want to run the quests with those who don't know it.

With Dungeon scaling why in god's name do you need other in your group unless you're just there to pike and take up space?

Serious question, having others in your group makes things harder not easier.

[psykopeta]

my 1st toon was a human clr with stats and feats like pnp, baldur's, whatever based on d&d lol

really gimp, at lvl 20 i had 200 hp

was really frustrated of being a healerbot, 0 damage output, was so big the frustration that next life i started wiki+videoing every quest to see if i was able to solo it, when failed, pug it

rinse and repeat

this way, and after 20 lives, im able to solo every quest ingame XD

why wanted to solo quests? because the worst part wasn't being gimped, was having to wait a party to do a quest, my sunk time waiting in fron the quest or in the ship for someone to come, even if i was a dedicated healer lol

was such pain my 1st life that i decided to hit triple completionist, and not grinding gear, get it trhough the lives, if i capped my 1st toon... i can hold whatever lol

also ddo isn't new player friendly, paths are useless, description of feats are wrong, and the best help you can get for the game is a wiki(and you need time to learn that's true)

prolly ddo should do a guide like:
-before crating your toon check that post, that wiki, and know that paths are wrong
-if wanna solo keep in mind that hires' AI sucks, plainly
-also keep in mind you won't be able to open elite, and prolly you'll need the streak if you're f2p and don't wanna have the feeling it's that another "kill 2342342 mobs to lvl" mmorpg
-multiclassing or melee toons are forbidden for 1st timers

this way players would be ready for pain, and if not interested would leave, and if they're scared, maybe they find it easier than expected lol

[count_spicoli]

Your friends sound really unambitious. They just decided everyone else is too good so they quit. That to me is not the type of player turbine should be catering too. They would prob have quit anyhow or be the type to log on once a year every 3 years for a week. I know someone in game who logs on every 6 months for a week, complains that he doesn't have all the gear I and others have and then quits for another 6 months. Is that really the flaky type people turbine should cater too. Or people who are up for challenges who will keep playing and paying as long as the challenge is there.

I remember my first life was a gimpy fighter stalwart with a big ole ac and couldn't kill a fly. I ran a madstone crater with a ftr tr my same level and the dude destroyed everything while I killed nothing. half way thru the quest he had 77 kills to my 8. You no what that did-INSPIRE ME to get better. Not quit like some spoiled brat. I got my gimp to 20. Ran the shroud a bunch of times and made a couple mins and some sweet greensteel pieces.
then tr'd into a ftr again with self healing. NOW I was that dude destroying content . Buffing healing killing all as a ftr but I paid my dues to get there. I loved the challenge and that to me is what makes ddo fun. As long as there is challenge the real d&d players and people that will keep paying turbines tab will be here. THe flakes will always come and go jumping game to game. IF I were turbine I would never cater to them.