Some Thoughts to promote a discussion concerning the gap between new and old players

[RapkintheRanger]

Perhaps your advice to TR their characters was wrong. They should have instead kept one character at cap to farm stuff and start another one, better built.

I agree.

what would a TR get you really?

If you were a barbarian you would get 10 HP and a couple build points. but remember, build points are not stat points. So really important stats you cant really move for 2 points as they would already be maxed or close to it. it means slightly less important stats might move up and that might make a point of difference for something....


lets consider con. IF you had low CON you might get 1 more HP per level ... so at leve l20 you would have 20 HP from the build points and 10 HP from a past life barbarian. or 30 HP...

well. you could have made yourself a green steel HP item for 45 HP... plus some exceptional stat boost. (that is the entire stat, not just the build point).

run the shround and get a plus 2 stat tom... way more important than the build points. (no time for that go buy yourself a plus 4 tome)... if it matters that much.


One of the characters you mentioned in the OP was a paladin. they get 5% more healing amplification for a past life, but you can make a green steel itelm to get you 70% more. why tell them to TR?

Step one... level up, step 2, get the gear to make you more effective. In teh meantime, run again with a different class or race and experinment for fun if u really dont want to TR your character.... the first lives are a little weaker, but if u can provide gear and gold they will be fine and because it takes way less exp, that more than makes up for the fewer build points..... By sending gold and gear over you cna make that one a lot easier to run too and maybe plan to TR it. make rogues and clerics for big undead pits, and make rangers for wilderness areas. explore the world.

[Uska]

Sorry all,I see is 4 whiners with bad attitudes as well as maybe a misconception about TRing it's not throwing your character away its improving them yes it takes time and work but up to a certain point it's more reward than work later its more work for less reward but the reward is still there they need to adjust the xp curve and apparently plan to. I for one won't miss players with attitudes like those.

[Angharad]

Reading this has definitely shown the difference in groups felt in game, at least to me... however I posit a different view to account for the attrition of "newer" players. Perhaps the amount of views held either as "new player" or "old player" is indicative of the lack of "mid-players" (or insert better term here). This "mid-player" is lacking in the differential knowledge between the two groups. They understand how to "game the game" by focusing their efforts on xp/min in various ways at various levels, they've purchased something from turbine with real money, be it a subscription or packs. They've learned at least one method to get to level 20, and by that I mean they either know how to pug effectively, or how to solo (with and without a heal bot), or have found a static group, yet they have not mastered the social intricacies of the game. Yes, I said social, not technical or "grindy".

It's not about what build works or doesn't, whether the technical knowledge of that player has reached it's end point or not, but rather about how welcoming that end-game crowd is, or rather, isn't. I've played for 2+ years, and during that time I've gotten stuck in this middle category of players. Maybe we're not as social as some, maybe we don't seek to prove ourselves against a sea of trolls, or maybe we are just reluctant in getting over that last hill of quests to gain the knowledge needed. One way or another, I believe it is a direct result of WHO you initially play with more than WHAT you initially play. In all my time playing, I've been "recruited" by several guilds, and founded a couple others so I could use gear in between them... I've never been kicked out, nor caused a stir of any type. I simply dropped out when I went for weeks without being invited to run anything. Let me restate that; I simply dropped out when weeks went by without a single call to the guild of "does anyone want to go run x" coming from someone other than newbies/level 10/- characters. I've helped a dozen people level their toons and many of them painfully slow I might add, as the rapid xp methods are simply more advanced than getting through a quest successfully.

This may be a poor example to communicate the issue, but on the flip side, when trying to become a regular raider (let alone an epic or elite raider) I was shuffled through every raid I ever went on in a most hurried fashion. Where does one learn the intricacies of quests such as these? Roll up a self healer who has epic levels of sneak (meant for illustration, don't ask where that enhancement is found please) just so I can see what it's like inside? The wiki (and youtube) can only demonstrate how to follow (at best) effectively. I've seen experienced guildies go for months without ever grouping with a single fellow guildy to raid, yet they were always on timer, and played with guildies for over half their time. Most players I've run with would only run raids in the wee hours of the morning, leaving those of us who can't function without sleep to wonder "what if"... but these are just the symptoms of the underlying condition.

Instead of arguing for a specific behaviour, or lack of, I simply put it that as it stands this issue seems to be rather boldly painted in black or white. Help the newbs feel powerful, or help the experienced retain that difference of power. The attrition that is spoken of isn't about old players leaving, nor about 1st week players abandoning their level 4's and going back to WoW. It's about semi-experienced players trying to be part of the group. If we all had friends/guilds that rushed 3rd+ TR's in a (week/month/whatever is appropriately less grindy to you), that had experienced players holding "Hound of Xoriat and you: how to complete this raid", that would coordinate their efforts with their fellow players without each of us having to "seek fame" as a way of merely finding committed players. Where are the players that want these "DDO Bootcamp completed" players to "train further"? Where are the guilds/groups/organizers who want these middle level players to turn into a team playing, coordinated mass, that can plow through whatever EH/EE they come against, simply because they've been through enough TR's together and have gotten used to a GROUP playstyle? Perhaps the divide is in fact a divide between the two mentalities of committed players, and what they are willing to work with, or more specifically what they expect of other (mid-)players...

As to personality and how it plays (as I'm sure the trolls don't have enough weaponry already), I personally lead and make decisions every day with nobody else to "tell me what to do". When I play I don't want to be "Mr. Organizer Man", I just want to be a competent operator... yet all I've managed to find are other players who help newbs get their first toons up and running, and those that expect other toons to be perfect completionists or to razz them on their perceived newbness. Maybe this has jaded my view, but as a member of the gray portion of this equation, I believe that more can be done by the group of players to solve this problem and retain enough blood to keep the game around for years to come than could ever (or would ever) be done by Turbine.

So I guess the point is next time you're out there looking for something to do as you've completed all you can think of, except perhaps grinding for another spell storing ring or what have you, have a look for 20+ players without wings... maybe they're still trying to grind enough to be part of your group and would be more effective if someone took an interest in recruiting this gray area, instead of treating "new" players like a disposable commodity. Recruit in your guild, train the basics and/or to get to 12-16, find more to recruit. Sounds like a pyramid scheme to me... which is just waiting for the suckers to realize it's a sham. Is that really what you think of DDO, that new players learning the game is a sham?

Two and a bit years later, and STILL RELEVANT.

Although mostly because people on Khyber are jerks. And no, I am not paying for the privilege of moving to another server.

[RobbinB]

What class do you feel a first toon should be? it's an interesting question.

Can a first toon be a warlock?

[Enderoc]

You always want to play but you never want to lose... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iepu3EtyE

[Seikojin]

Why not allow first life toons the ability to roll stats. Roll, roll, and roll, until you get the all 18's. Then after you roflstomp the first life, you get point buy for the second life and beyond.

[Seikojin]

Can a first toon be a warlock?

Yes if they are vip. And yes if they buy the class.

[Basura_Grande]

Yes if they are vip. And yes if they buy the class.

Vangaurd Paladin best first class.

[Annex]

Two and a bit years later, and STILL RELEVANT.

I very much empathize with the three players described in the original post. My two main characters reached L28 and 'reincarnated' down to L20. As a role player, the 'reincarnation' process was extremely disruptive, frustrating, non-intuitive, and time consuming. (Thankfully, helpful forum readers answered all my questions and assisted me through that awful mess.) 'Reincarnation' essentially serves as clunky action game reset button and offers absolutely no help maintaining the original appearance of a character. I used 'heroic' reincarnation on one character and that was even worse. My two main characters have almost reached L28 again and I absolutely dread what lies ahead. Every other multiplayer game I have tried allows me to endlessly play and advance my characters, often in multiple classes or roles, without going through a destructive restart process.

Although mostly because people on Khyber are jerks. And no, I am not paying for the privilege of moving to another server.

I play on Khyber but almost always run solo. My experiences with group play always end...badly.

[KoobTheProud]

I play on Khyber but almost always run solo. My experiences with group play always end...badly.

I'm also a player who treats DDO like an RPG. I play solo all the time and I buy x-pacs and other things as they become available. I've been playing since release and I've never had a good group experience after the first year or so.

Most of the content I'm running is either on my personal farm route or brand new to me. Other players aren't needed for the farm route and they race through the new stuff like it's a road rally, just barely touching each of the areas in the dungeon and skipping entire sections for speed reasons. It's just crazy how little of the game most players actually play.

What we need is a RPG group finder in which only players who are interested in actually playing the game need apply. It would be great to find people who are running instances for all the possible reasons to do so not just as a race to the level cap/favor/that item they're hoping the RNG will finally give them.

[Tinari]

Run it themselves on normal or casual?

Google it and find a walkthrough?

Should vets chew their food for them as well?

I don't mean to sound callous, but you learn nothing if you're a new player and you join a group of vets who crush the quest for you. Throw up your own LFMs and actually LEARNING how to play the game by PLAYING the game is the best experience you can have.

I am a third-lifer and I still have difficulty understanding or finding my way through some quests, because my first and second lives I ended up in a group that zerged through it, or my buddy was rushing me through it and it was all I could do just to keep up, much less try to learn anything.

With this third life I have made it a point to at least try to learn each quest a bit better. Case and point, I need to do this... I may start it tonight actually... http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shadow_Crypt

[eachna_gislin]

I am a third-lifer and I still have difficulty understanding or finding my way through some quests, because my first and second lives I ended up in a group that zerged through it, or my buddy was rushing me through it and it was all I could do just to keep up, much less try to learn anything.

With this third life I have made it a point to at least try to learn each quest a bit better. Case and point, I need to do this... I may start it tonight actually... http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shadow_Crypt

I've been playing for years and I still get lost in quests and some wildernesses. As far as I'm concerned, the Sands wilderness only has like 4 quests . I can find the pre-raid, the Fallen Shrine, Wizking...and the either one or two tomb quests by Wiz King.

I'm ok in Shadow Crypt, but I have a lot of trouble in the swimming flagging quest. I've been assured many times it's "impossible" to get lost in that quest and yet I get lost every time. I guess I'm able to achieve the impossible dream .

As for the original post...two years later and the gap between new and old toons is worse than ever.

[Grailhawk]

Vangaurd Paladin best first class.

Paladin in general IMO with Vangaurd being the easiest choice yes.

I also think a 15/3/2 Swashbucklers Is a good new player build. Skirmisher, SWF and ISM feats go a long way together.

I'm ok in Shadow Crypt, but I have a lot of trouble in the swimming flagging quest. I've been assured many times it's "impossible" to get lost in that quest and yet I get lost every time. I guess I'm able to achieve the impossible dream .

As for the original post...two years later and the gap between new and old toons is worse than ever.

The quest is liner with only one fork but that dead ends on an optional if you are getting lost in that quest then whats happening is you are getting turned around so much you don't know which way is up and which is down. Try running it in small doses an picking up land marks, or maybe check the wiki for a map.

[FranOhmsford]

Paladin in general IMO with Vangaurd being the easiest choice yes.

I also think a 15/3/2 Swashbucklers Is a good new player build. Skirmisher, SWF and ISM feats go a long way together.

Rogue Mech!

The quest is liner with only one fork but that dead ends on an optional if you are getting lost in that quest then whats happening is you are getting turned around so much you don't know which way is up and which is down. Try running it in small doses an picking up land marks, or maybe check the wiki for a map.

I enjoy Shadow Guard because it's oddly relaxing just swimming through 3/4s of the quest.

In over 100 runs of said quest I think I've done the opt twice - And those were both on early runs when I took the wrong turn.

All you need to remember is that when you drop into the water and see a large wooden circle with a symbol on it stay on the surface and swim right rather than diving {Yes you'll have to submerge but only a foot or so to avoid a low roof.

What does annoy me about that quest though is the fakeout shrine {u used to be able to use it through the bars but the Devs fixed that and now it can't be reached full stop.}.
Make sure you take extra pots if you think you might have trouble with the mobs.