The more I think about it, you guys should really go back to the drawing board.

[patang01]

First - the main problem with most of the enhancements today is that unlike the previous system this one splits clearly class based features between prestige classes. That's unlike before; I mean it's one thing to be forced to come up with a prestige class capstone in the case of classes that only had 1 partial prestige class (like Arti) but I can't for the life of me understand how iconic class features gets split between prestige classes that forces a player to invest valuable points in features they seldom, rarely or will never use.

That's also the main reason why several classes right now are so fundamentally flawed that you're consider releasing a change to them in upcoming future updates. Like for the Sorc.

And that clearly shows the fundamental problem with the current enhancement system.

1. The idea to spend so much in a particular tree is silly. It leads to corn holing features and makes it hard to add flexibility. Especially since you've made the mistake of splitting class features among prestige classes.

2. By splitting class features between prestige classes and adding restrictive features like points spent in tree you make it near impossible to re-create current builds in the new enhancement system.

3. This leads for most part to narrow restricted builds compared to the more open system we have now.

So what's wrong with splitting class features among prestige classes other then causing players to waste points and spent so much in a tree?

First and foremost it leads to a silly a minimalistic approach to enhancement building constraint by only having so much space in a tree. This further leads to the abhorrent situation of removing key class features and severely limit build opportunities. Like removing the force line from the sorc class and restrict their ability to picking spell power from 2 different spell powers as suppose to any. And by baking in crit chance and spell power together with crit multipliers it limits the game in scope where it gets increasingly hard to have a full fletched out magic system with multiple build ideas.

With fewer more corn holed choices you automatically get cookie cutter builds. Restricted to few build options and with identical expenditure of class features.

Take Arti and sorc as an example.

Arti is limited to crit chance for force, electric and fire. All baked into one. And spell power level dependent on rune arm charge. That is so foreign from how it used to be. By baking these things together it removes the opportunity for a Arti to get the full benefit from all type of rune arms. Like cold and acid. And because it's increasingly hard for Arti's to break reflex save in upper end content few if any use AOE based rune arms (like fire and electric) and rely on acid and force.

And since there are very few items (other then scepters) that reliably increase force crit chance other then greater arcane lore items that is now further reduced by the reduction in lore. Where most superior lore items now provide 5% crit chance greater arcane lore is reduced to 2%.

So not only is force based runearms reduced in scope when it comes to crit chance (like a human arti with shadowmail with impulse) but they have no help from acid since they can't boost the crit chance of acid.

Now this used to be your average atypical class feature. Not prestige feature. But since the enhancement change is making this brutal break into battle engineer that gets all type of crossbow and runearm related stuff but the actual crit chance is split into the arcanotech - well as you can see you now have an arbitrary split of core class features into 2 prestige classes. And where as the atypical capstone of arti the ability to treat all clickies as level 20 is now the arcanotech one and the battle engineer gets something else, you have also force split what felt as classic Arti features into 2 diverging prestige classes.

And you can say the same about other classes as well. Such as fighter. Such as Sorc.

If you want to be a Tank then you will have a hard time finding ways of improving DPS since Stalwart takes a deep dive into sword and board. And if you liked the additional DPS from the old fighter capstone (10% doublestrike) you can only get that from Kensei.

If you're a sorc you cannot any longer pick from any spell power. You have to pick a main one that automatically comes with another. No more picking anything you'd like. And no force.

Take Paladin - can anyone think of any reason why iconic features like smite and lay on hands is split between 2 diverging prestige classes? That just sounds silly.

So the only reasonable system would be to have a core class tree, prestige trees and race tree. With very few things that require spent in tree.

The core class tree would include things that is fundamental to any particular class. Like the ability for an arti to boost any type of spell power and crit chance. Like core weapon and rune arm features.

Like sorc being able to pick from any spell power. Like fundamental basic Paladin core classic features.

Then each prestige tree adds the layer that makes those prestige classes unique.

While that adds more trees it also fixes the disconnect we all feel with the arbitrary split between what we always thought was core features and what was prestige classes. And it adds flexibility of choice. A Paladin can take their smite and lay on hands free from making useless investments and then enhance those features if there's a unique twist to being a specific prestige class.

Sorc can pick any type of spell power, then invest in the Savant that suits them and thereby strengthening that specific element and weakening the opposing. This adds flexibility.

By expanding choice but still maintain the structure of tree it simplifies the overview but provide a broader spectrum of choices. No corn holing; no restricting of features and no arbitrary need to split or limit core abilities.

[Thuldorn]

Funny, after a couple days with the current system I was thinking the same way. We really need a Race Tree, Class tree and Prestige tree. What if, heaven forbid, I didn't want to make a specialist, i.e. I don't want to take a prestige class. In the current system I could take a balanced approach, for instance I could make a sorc that is equally as good with all elements, If I want to be really good with 1 element, then I give up one element.

Now under the system we had last weekend, I'm forced to take a prestige and give up a lot in one of the other elements. And if I want to boost another element just a little I lose yet another element.

So basically with just 2 types of trees to choose from you're taking away a lot of what makes DDO stand out, flexibility.

In case you can't tell my main is a sorc.

I would much prefer to have a choice from three trees: Race, Class and Prestige than just 2. The class tree should be full of basic, core stuff, like USP for the arcane classes, and the prestige classes where the specialization is, i.e. increased specific spell power. And don't lock us out of an element, the penalties as implemented in the current enhancement system (live) are enough.

Just my thoughts.

[patang01]

Funny, after a couple days with the current system I was thinking the same way. We really need a Race Tree, Class tree and Prestige tree. What if, heaven forbid, I didn't want to make a specialist, i.e. I don't want to take a prestige class. In the current system I could take a balanced approach, for instance I could make a sorc that is equally as good with all elements, If I want to be really good with 1 element, then I give up one element.

Now under the system we had last weekend, I'm forced to take a prestige and give up a lot in one of the other elements. And if I want to boost another element just a little I lose yet another element.

So basically with just 2 types of trees to choose from you're taking away a lot of what makes DDO stand out, flexibility.

In case you can't tell my main is a sorc.

I would much prefer to have a choice from three trees: Race, Class and Prestige than just 2. The class tree should be full of basic, core stuff, like USP for the arcane classes, and the prestige classes where the specialization is, i.e. increased specific spell power. And don't lock us out of an element, the penalties as implemented in the current enhancement system (live) are enough.

Just my thoughts.

I agree - part of why the current system works is that you assume that most of them are class abilities, some are race and the rest strict Prestige. Now there are no class abilities, there's a separate race and 2 prestige. And the must spend so much in each tree severely limits flexibility. For most part among all of the different toons I have ported over few of them can get close to how they are now and most are weaker.

[zaphear]

/signed... not a thing will change though. I'm 99% they're set in stone on making this an extremely "newbie" friendly game simply to grab the NWO falloff people. They've more or less removed the concept of "oh you don't know how to play DDO? Well you're going to suck until you learn." Which is what drew me to this game in the first place.. a challenge.

[bluejadex]

/signed... not a thing will change though. I'm 99% they're set in stone on making this an extremely "newbie" friendly game simply to grab the NWO falloff people. They've more or less removed the concept of "oh you don't know how to play DDO? Well you're going to suck until you learn." Which is what drew me to this game in the first place.. a challenge.

This makes me think of the learning curve drawing showing the difference between EVE Online & some other MMORPGs (DDO's not on the drawing though...):


Although, WoW has simplified it to the extent that that I don't think that it's a curve with even that much slope. With some of the changes, like enhancement trees, it seems like DDO is heading more in the direction of WoW, where if you know what class someone is, you know they come in one of 2 or 3 flavors and that's it. The enhancement system on live allows for a lot more customization with your character, imho.

[patang01]

This makes me think of the learning curve drawing showing the difference between EVE Online & some other MMORPGs (DDO's not on the drawing though...):


Although, WoW has simplified it to the extent that that I don't think that it's a curve with even that much slope. With some of the changes, like enhancement trees, it seems like DDO is heading more in the direction of WoW, where if you know what class someone is, you know they come in one of 2 or 3 flavors and that's it. The enhancement system on live allows for a lot more customization with your character, imho.

That's what I see as well.

Simple is okay, but oversimplification removes flavor. And all you get is tank, dps, specialist and caster. No flavor, just the same stuff with different faces and races.

The tree system is not bad per say; it puts a structure in place where the old system is kind of muddled. But at the same time it makes mindbending assumption about basic class features that don't make sense.

And since it tries to cram in everything in 2 prestige trees and one race lots of basic core features are either lost or reduced to nothing.

Again - leading to no flavor.

[Systern]

Uhhh... I think the idiom you're looking for is "Pigeon holing".

Corn Holing is .... something different that is probably infraction worthy.



But yes, I agree, the system does not support build diversity and multiclassing. It enforces that players choose every enhancement necessary to support the 1 or more Tier 5 enhancement they desire, and little left over for everything else. It also penalizes you, for most characters, for investing in the racial tree with the "each point you spend in your racial tree gives you -1 USP/-1 HP/-3% Fortification/etc" mechanic.

[Dandonk]

I tried out respeccing a lot of my characters, and I have to agree with your assessment. Don't get me wrong, there are cool stuff in the new enhancements. Some of the new things are really, really cool. But it just breaks so many things, and indeed leads to what really should be class abilities being thrown semi-randomly into trees (since they had to go somewhere).

[patang01]

I tried out respeccing a lot of my characters, and I have to agree with your assessment. Don't get me wrong, there are cool stuff in the new enhancements. Some of the new things are really, really cool. But it just breaks so many things, and indeed leads to what really should be class abilities being thrown semi-randomly into trees (since they had to go somewhere).

I like some of the stuff too. Like running at full speed with rune arm charging.

I'm sure I'm not echoing a unique feeling about the game and I hope someone raised this during the early alpha preview and where some have changed it's not really that much. And by all definitions this is now set in stone. Which kind of turns me off at the prospect of this going live and that despite input from the community they're largely going to release what we see now.

I find that unfortunate. To be honest; I rather see this delayed until they get it right because we know how hard it is for Turbine to revisit this stuff later on.

[skullzz]

I like some of the stuff too. Like running at full speed with rune arm charging.

I'm sure I'm not echoing a unique feeling about the game and I hope someone raised this during the early alpha preview and where some have changed it's not really that much. And by all definitions this is now set in stone. Which kind of turns me off at the prospect of this going live and that despite input from the community they're largely going to release what we see now.

I find that unfortunate. To be honest; I rather see this delayed until they get it right because we know how hard it is for Turbine to revisit this stuff later on.

This will probably cause issues for barbarians (sorry guys I have to bring it up).

I respec'ed my barb/fighter 18/2 last weekend. I was able to get frenzy 3 back with the tier 5, most of the clickies from ravanger, and 3 more action boosts from kensia.
My barb now has as many clickies as my monk does and that is saying a lot about what is gained. (all clickies max rank)

Just him being in fury with twf (i love this as a barb) forgetting to turn on PA, no stun, and no adrenaline my crits were still over 1000.
Switching to Legendary nothing changed other than crits being a little lower but still over 1000.

Some classes do need tweeting more but barb could stay still and you would have a lot of options.

I will look at my casters this weekend. (only looked at my melees and rolled a PKD last)

[2pleasegimmie]

[QUOTE=Systern;5044034]Uhhh... I think the idiom you're looking for is "Pigeon holing".

Corn Holing is .... something different that is probably infraction worthy.

QUOTE]

Actually, it seems rather appropriate given how bad so much of the proposed change actually is :/

[patang01]

Let me add

I don't mean to be overly critical. I did my ranger today and with 2 levels of fighter and 18 ranger it was primarily a tempest. With the changes I can now pick from 5 prestige classes (2 fighter although only tier 1 and 2) and 3 ranger. The benefit is that I'm not locked into 1 and it is nice to be able to pick up imbued arrows as a tempest.

And while I'm not really all that keen on the top tier ranger since it adds so many clickies (I'd love to spend more time looking at the game then the cool down timer on my clickies) it is interesting how I can mix and match - add DPS, ranged and fighter stuff.

But the issue still remains - while it's nice to have the freedom to mix and match there are artificial restrictions due to the split between prestige classes. And some of it have the consequence of greatly limiting the ability to re-create what you have live now. Partly because of the 'spend in tree' requirement and the fact that you have to buy core abilities before you can invest in a tree.

So kudos for adding flexibility but this still lacks a core class tree. And you should definitely consider skipping 'spend in tree' restrictions for a majority of enhancements.

[MangLord]

I'd love to spend more time looking at the game then the cool down timer on my clickies.

I will cosign this. I felt like a raid healer the first quest I did as a new arcane archer. Miss the quest entirely whilst staring at bars. In the case of the new ranger, I was just watching 5 arrow clickies cool down as my SP drained quicker than a pint of Popov in the hands of a thirsty bum.

[Iriale]

I too think we need general class trees. All in prestiges is the main flaw of the current design. The second mistake, not as big but important, is the points spent in the tree thing.

What I fear is that there is no longer time for large redesigns. If they want to release it next month ...

I would ask to delay the release if necessary. We can wait. We waited a long time, one or two more months make no difference. Most of the players will prefer to wait for a robust system. In this iteration the EP have some wonderful changes and some pretty good ideas, but his base is flawed.

[hyenaboy]

Man, just going through a lot of these threads today and I can only saw wow. I have always played this game because of how flexible I could make my characters. From looking at the new enhancement trees I see that is pretty much a done deal. So why even have the ability to make custom characters anymore if Turbine doesn't want us too. I hope the current state is not how it is released to live but judging by the past 6 years I have been playing I would have to say I am not hopeful. This may spell the end for my play but I have been skeptical before and held on for the ride. I will initially as always hold on and see what I can manipulate but if the core of what I love about this game is gone then so shall I.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Bump -- Could we please get some interaction/thoughts on the enhancements? Asking nicely/sincerely/politely, some good thoughts in this here thread. Thanks in advance! Cheers! :P! !

[Renvar]

First - the main problem with most of the enhancements today is that unlike the previous system this one splits clearly class based features between prestige classes. That's unlike before; I mean it's one thing to be forced to come up with a prestige class capstone in the case of classes that only had 1 partial prestige class (like Arti) but I can't for the life of me understand how iconic class features gets split between prestige classes that forces a player to invest valuable points in features they seldom, rarely or will never use.

That's also the main reason why several classes right now are so fundamentally flawed that you're consider releasing a change to them in upcoming future updates. Like for the Sorc.

And that clearly shows the fundamental problem with the current enhancement system.

1. The idea to spend so much in a particular tree is silly. It leads to corn holing features and makes it hard to add flexibility. Especially since you've made the mistake of splitting class features among prestige classes.

2. By splitting class features between prestige classes and adding restrictive features like points spent in tree you make it near impossible to re-create current builds in the new enhancement system.

3. This leads for most part to narrow restricted builds compared to the more open system we have now.

So what's wrong with splitting class features among prestige classes other then causing players to waste points and spent so much in a tree?

First and foremost it leads to a silly a minimalistic approach to enhancement building constraint by only having so much space in a tree. This further leads to the abhorrent situation of removing key class features and severely limit build opportunities. Like removing the force line from the sorc class and restrict their ability to picking spell power from 2 different spell powers as suppose to any. And by baking in crit chance and spell power together with crit multipliers it limits the game in scope where it gets increasingly hard to have a full fletched out magic system with multiple build ideas.

With fewer more corn holed choices you automatically get cookie cutter builds. Restricted to few build options and with identical expenditure of class features.

Take Arti and sorc as an example.

Arti is limited to crit chance for force, electric and fire. All baked into one. And spell power level dependent on rune arm charge. That is so foreign from how it used to be. By baking these things together it removes the opportunity for a Arti to get the full benefit from all type of rune arms. Like cold and acid. And because it's increasingly hard for Arti's to break reflex save in upper end content few if any use AOE based rune arms (like fire and electric) and rely on acid and force.

And since there are very few items (other then scepters) that reliably increase force crit chance other then greater arcane lore items that is now further reduced by the reduction in lore. Where most superior lore items now provide 5% crit chance greater arcane lore is reduced to 2%.

So not only is force based runearms reduced in scope when it comes to crit chance (like a human arti with shadowmail with impulse) but they have no help from acid since they can't boost the crit chance of acid.

Now this used to be your average atypical class feature. Not prestige feature. But since the enhancement change is making this brutal break into battle engineer that gets all type of crossbow and runearm related stuff but the actual crit chance is split into the arcanotech - well as you can see you now have an arbitrary split of core class features into 2 prestige classes. And where as the atypical capstone of arti the ability to treat all clickies as level 20 is now the arcanotech one and the battle engineer gets something else, you have also force split what felt as classic Arti features into 2 diverging prestige classes.

And you can say the same about other classes as well. Such as fighter. Such as Sorc.

If you want to be a Tank then you will have a hard time finding ways of improving DPS since Stalwart takes a deep dive into sword and board. And if you liked the additional DPS from the old fighter capstone (10% doublestrike) you can only get that from Kensei.

If you're a sorc you cannot any longer pick from any spell power. You have to pick a main one that automatically comes with another. No more picking anything you'd like. And no force.

Take Paladin - can anyone think of any reason why iconic features like smite and lay on hands is split between 2 diverging prestige classes? That just sounds silly.

So the only reasonable system would be to have a core class tree, prestige trees and race tree. With very few things that require spent in tree.

The core class tree would include things that is fundamental to any particular class. Like the ability for an arti to boost any type of spell power and crit chance. Like core weapon and rune arm features.

Like sorc being able to pick from any spell power. Like fundamental basic Paladin core classic features.

Then each prestige tree adds the layer that makes those prestige classes unique.

While that adds more trees it also fixes the disconnect we all feel with the arbitrary split between what we always thought was core features and what was prestige classes. And it adds flexibility of choice. A Paladin can take their smite and lay on hands free from making useless investments and then enhance those features if there's a unique twist to being a specific prestige class.

Sorc can pick any type of spell power, then invest in the Savant that suits them and thereby strengthening that specific element and weakening the opposing. This adds flexibility.

By expanding choice but still maintain the structure of tree it simplifies the overview but provide a broader spectrum of choices. No corn holing; no restricting of features and no arbitrary need to split or limit core abilities.

There are a couple of solution options:

1. Drop the points spent in tree requirement. Make it points spent total. (Similar to how it works on live). This would allow you to go get the things you want without having to spend on things you will never use just to hit a points spent in tree requirement. Simple.

2. Create a class tree and move the core features there and have separate prestige trees for each prestige. I like this better from a flow and conceptual perspective, but, it would take more time and effort. Even if you do, I'm still not sure I'm a fan of points spent in tree as a limiting factor.

I'd go with option 1, given that this is 2nd beta and we are 3-4 weeks till live.

[danotmano1998]

What I see happened is they gutted the existing Action Point system and split it up into different trees.
Then they realized they had holes all over the place and someone stuffed a bunch of junk in just to fill out the spaces on the charts.

What they SHOULD have done, IMO, is kept all the same stuff as we had, made a newer pretty UI like they wanted to, and then added new stuff. But hey, this is Turbine and we get what we get. Honestly, I'm extremely disappointed in their choices but there's nothing we can do that will really change things. That's not to say our feedback isn't useful to them, they HAVE made some nods towards fixing things, I will give them that.

But it wasn't "broke" in the first place. So they "fixed" it. Now they are fixing their "fixes" and doing what they can.
It's a crying shame that management can't seem to pull it's head out enough to see what they are doing to the game we love one poorly conceived and implemented idea at a time.

[TheKeeper1981]

Oh, yes! I would so much love to have a core class tree, in addition to the prestige trees! I primarily play a Shintao III monk, and I was quite disappointed to find that the core class capstone--monk serentiy--was placed in the Henshin Line, while the core class ability, monk improved recovery I-III, was made part of the Shintao Line. This leaves many monk builds deprived of the three things many, if not all, monks depend upon: Concentration, to maintain as much ki as possible, ki generation, and healing amplification. They never should have been split up among the different prestige classes. I also hated that I had to spend so many points in the Shintao Tree, in order to get all of my core Shintao abilities (basically, I've been trying to see if I can recreate my monk build on Lamannia). This didn't really leave me with very many points to spend in the other trees, to make up for the loss in concentration, and to gain the one more point in wisdom, recreating Monk Wisdom I-III.

All in all, while I do like that the UI makes it easier to determine what one needs to advance to the enhancement one wants, and I do like many of the additions they've made to the enhancements, I do think that the enhancement system would actually be improved by adding in a core class tree. I also like the idea of removing the restrictions to the number of points one must invest in a tree to gain all of the core class abilities. Simply requiring a total number of points spent, as it does on live, works well enough, allowing people to mix and match, creating a greater variety of builds to match the endless variety of playstyles.

[Teh_Troll]

The "system" is fine, it's always been the devil in the details. It's 90% good now, needs more tweaks though.