Quest Ransack AKA how to kill a (part of the) game

[Wizza]

I understand the sentiment, but I believe the people that will make the most use of this mechanic aren't doing alot of pugging as it stands.
We are talking people who do speed TRs, solo or with friends, or other static groups, these people will get this method down to a fine art, many of them don't do alot of pugging now anyways.

What I can see is some people increasing their pugging by looking to get higher level players in their group to help them get some of these great xp quests done underlevel. These people before would wait til Quest Lvl +2 to run, so essentially most could smash it solo or shortman on elite, now some people will have to actually group to make this mechanic work in their favor, not all of course but some will.
Theres pros and cons to everything, BB killed pugging, this may breathe fresh life back into it.

What I see is you making assumption on how people will "get this method down to a fine art" just to make your point. Or assumption on how this will increase pugging scene. Just why would this increase it exactly? Your reasons are just even more assumptions.

What we can see is what Charononus described really well or what I've been saying for a while.

[CoasterHops]

Adding in XP bonuses ( Greater Tome of Learning, VoM, Ship, 30% XP Pot, VIP) and assuming no over level penalties and ignoring the 7% or 5% for killing fewer monsters and also ignoring the 0 Deaths [the pit of traps has claimed some of the best]

Litany at -80%
8,514 Elite
8,190 Hard
7,866 Normal

So I guess the XP/Min ratio is really up to what you consider to be "good"

Are those the actual numbers?????

[CoasterHops]

What I see is you making assumption on how people will "get this method down to a fine art" just to make your point. Or assumption on how this will increase pugging scene. Just why would this increase it exactly? Your reasons are just even more assumptions.

What we can see is what Charononus described really well or what I've been saying for a while.

So all of a sudden one persons assumptions are better than anothers?

Have you looked at Enoach's Litany -80% numbers, and you still think that farming Litany to 20 is bad xp per minute???

[nibel]

Are those the actual numbers?????

Per wiki: 8,740/9,100/9,460 base

-80% repetition
+20% greater tome
===========
-60% base XP
for 5,244/5,460/5,676

On this value you add:

10% VIP
05% Voice
30% Potion
05% Guild Shrine
==
50% extra XP on completion
for the numbers he give.

[CoasterHops]

Per wiki: 8,740/9,100/9,460 base

-80% repetition
+20% greater tome
===========
-60% base XP
for 5,244/5,460/5,676

On this value you add:

10% VIP
05% Voice
30% Potion
05% Guild Shrine
==
50% extra XP on completion
for the numbers he give.

So even at -80% it would be difficult to define this quest as bad xp per minute, assuming typical XP buffage, so farming Litany from 16 - 20 could be a valid method of levelling if you so desired?
Sure it would drive you nuts, but hey some people will no doubt go down this route.

[dlsidhe]

Why would I run a quest Lv 15 (17 on elite) at 14, way below under level? Risking to die? When, at 14, I have Wiz king, Framework, Diplomatic Immunity, Eyes of Stone, Chains, GH?

Lol at running Litany all the way to 20 with a -80%. Because that's good XP/Min, right?

Litany elite, at 14 (not 15 as you stated), is rather hard. The traps at the end hurt really bad. And if I have to go slower just to do it, it is not worth it when I can do 2x quest in the same time and at my level (or 2 lower, BB streak).

Scratch, scratch. Brb, going to run The kobold's new ringleader till I cap to 20. Because with this system, I can

I think that pretty much sums up the difference between how I play the game, and how you play the game.

In my view, there will be deaths, and challenge is fun and rewarding, even if it means taking more time. This means that the XP change is good, because it gives no reason to save quests until certain levels (soloing elites under level? Yes, that's good for the soul )

In your view, deaths = XP Penalty and challenge means wasted XP/minute. So the change is bad, because it reduces XP/minute for some quests.

[Charononus]

I think that pretty much sums up the difference between how I play the game, and how you play the game.

In my view, there will be deaths, and challenge is fun and rewarding, even if it means taking more time. This means that the XP change is good, because it gives no reason to save quests until certain levels (soloing elites under level? Yes, that's good for the soul )

In your view, deaths = XP Penalty and challenge means wasted XP/minute. So the change is bad, because it reduces XP/minute for some quests.

Soloing elites under level sounds tedious and a bad idea in 90% of cases. The reason being even after these changes there will still be more xp low level than high level, and doing so on anything other than a few select quests where you want to farm them will probably hurt you in the end as you run out of quests, and either need to farm more or run quests with horrible xp. Even Thrudh has said the xp is bad in amrath and house c and should go up, it's pretty much that much of a given. So if you want to run out of xp under level elites is a great idea. And yes under level does mean slower paced, it means pulling slower, and it taking longer for the mobs to die from less dps. However is it really a challenge? You just build your toon to have better defenses, and kite/circle more, you pull slower but since it's your 2000 run in the quest you know where everything is, how to pull just the mobs you want, and how to avoid even having to make a save going thru the trap. Sorry it's not really a challenge it's just a slow down. That means your definition of challenge does mean just less xp/min, and I'm sorry but deaths does equal an xp penalty. Now it's not a bad loss at the moment, but if we have to redo our leveling to deal with less xp per day from farming that means that death xp is a bigger factor.

[Gwyxxx]

What counter-argument? The fact that there are many people that enjoy the hard farm on live? I don't have any hard number but I know we are many. At least, I don't pretend to pull numbers out of thin air.

I don't Know the numbers but Devs don't like zerg.

Against zerg we have:
Cap to Jump - against big top jumping
Dungeon Alert - my lagging pc is very happy of this, but the fault is of the system implement
Cannith Challenge Exp Nerf - erhm... that's no good Devs!
(Maybe) Changes to Invisibility and similar things

Why they don't like zergers? Maybe, and i tell MAYBE because they burn the game too fast.

Anyway, I'd like too no changes in xp decay... I've a first life Bard, and I Know that I can do an Elite Tr with Evasion\Trap Making and my personal clonk for heals and stun... but I'm not sure about less optimized build... I admit it.

[Wizza]

I think that pretty much sums up the difference between how I play the game, and how you play the game.

In my view, there will be deaths, and challenge is fun and rewarding, even if it means taking more time. This means that the XP change is good, because it gives no reason to save quests until certain levels (soloing elites under level? Yes, that's good for the soul )

In your view, deaths = XP Penalty and challenge means wasted XP/minute. So the change is bad, because it reduces XP/minute for some quests.

So, will you agree with me that this not necessary changes are hurting one part of the people, taking away their choices and making them run things not as they want?

Soloing elites under level sounds tedious and a bad idea in 90% of cases. The reason being even after these changes there will still be more xp low level than high level, and doing so on anything other than a few select quests where you want to farm them will probably hurt you in the end as you run out of quests, and either need to farm more or run quests with horrible xp. Even Thrudh has said the xp is bad in amrath and house c and should go up, it's pretty much that much of a given. So if you want to run out of xp under level elites is a great idea. And yes under level does mean slower paced, it means pulling slower, and it taking longer for the mobs to die from less dps. However is it really a challenge? You just build your toon to have better defenses, and kite/circle more, you pull slower but since it's your 2000 run in the quest you know where everything is, how to pull just the mobs you want, and how to avoid even having to make a save going thru the trap. Sorry it's not really a challenge it's just a slow down. That means your definition of challenge does mean just less xp/min, and I'm sorry but deaths does equal an xp penalty. Now it's not a bad loss at the moment, but if we have to redo our leveling to deal with less xp per day from farming that means that death xp is a bigger factor.

This.

Want to sell more packs -> update the XP of every single quest of these packs. Don't punish hardcore farmers.

I don't Know the numbers but Devs don't like zerg.

Against zerg we have:
Cap to Jump - against big top jumping
Dungeon Alert - my lagging pc is very happy of this, but the fault is of the system implement
Cannith Challenge Exp Nerf - erhm... that's no good Devs!
(Maybe) Changes to Invisibility and similar things

Why they don't like zergers? Maybe, and i tell MAYBE because they burn the game too fast.

Changes to Invisibility and sneak will actually help it.
Dungeon Alert is for the lag but it's useless.
Cap to jump is to not let us jump over the sky.

These are not things against zerg. These are well thought things (maybe not DA, still a stupid mechanic).

[Soulfurnace]

Allow the Farmers to continue to farm their favorite quests at the heroic and epic levels.

Make it so.
*Note. I also agree with the rest you said, but 'dat post is too long to quote merely to agree with!

In regards to various other posts (of which I cannot be bothered finding), how does getting xp on a quest 24 hours (or even 12) hours later help?
12 hours, I've most likely taken a level... Or two. Or three. Maybe I can re-run that quest I was farming before I went to bed?

On another note, I don't even know why people call solo (under level or otherwise) a challenge.

[Deadlock]

Adding in XP bonuses ( Greater Tome of Learning, VoM, Ship, 30% XP Pot, VIP) and assuming no over level penalties and ignoring the 7% or 5% for killing fewer monsters and also ignoring the 0 Deaths [the pit of traps has claimed some of the best]

Litany at -80%
8,514 Elite
8,190 Hard
7,866 Normal

So I guess the XP/Min ratio is really up to what you consider to be "good"

With -80% for repetition, no over-level penalties, no event bonus, 5% ship buffs, 5% VOM, 30% XP pot, 10% VIP XP, 20% from Greater Tome, no re-entry, no kill bonus and at least 1 death, you're actually looking at:
7,095 Elite
6,825 Hard
6,555 Normal

So with a 7 minute run this isn't worth doing at level, when you can get 2k/min elsewhere. If you take longer then it's really, really not worth doing. If I have a 30% pot running, then I'm expecting 2k/min and would stop a farm run when it gets below 10k.

[Deadlock]

So even at -80% it would be difficult to define this quest as bad xp per minute

It's not bad, it's terrible XP/min at that level with all of those XP boost available.

[dlsidhe]

Soloing elites under level sounds tedious and a bad idea in 90% of cases. The reason being even after these changes there will still be more xp low level than high level, and doing so on anything other than a few select quests where you want to farm them will probably hurt you in the end as you run out of quests, and either need to farm more or run quests with horrible xp. Even Thrudh has said the xp is bad in amrath and house c and should go up, it's pretty much that much of a given. So if you want to run out of xp under level elites is a great idea. And yes under level does mean slower paced, it means pulling slower, and it taking longer for the mobs to die from less dps. However is it really a challenge? You just build your toon to have better defenses, and kite/circle more, you pull slower but since it's your 2000 run in the quest you know where everything is, how to pull just the mobs you want, and how to avoid even having to make a save going thru the trap. Sorry it's not really a challenge it's just a slow down. That means your definition of challenge does mean just less xp/min, and I'm sorry but deaths does equal an xp penalty. Now it's not a bad loss at the moment, but if we have to redo our leveling to deal with less xp per day from farming that means that death xp is a bigger factor.

...the wall of text, it burns.

Secondly, under the new system, if you run elites under level, you can go back and run them again over level with no penalty. So "running out of xp" isn't a concern. And, honestly, it should never have been on to begin with, because lots of quests need their XP adjusted upwards. Apart from Amrath and Cannith, the entire "Druid's Curse" chain is a rather cruel joke.

So, will you agree with me that this not necessary changes are hurting one part of the people, taking away their choices and making them run things not as they want?

I won't agree that it hurts them at all, because their goal - getting to 20 as fast as possible - is still achievable, but will require new strategies. "Not running things as they want," when currently that means "grinding high xp/minute quests to death," means less to me than "freedom to run quests without fear of running out of XP."

ETA: And given that several people have said that there's no reason to change the rate of repetition penalty accumulation, just adding an 18-36 hour reset timer, it ideally wouldn't effect you at all.

[nibel]

With -80% for repetition, no over-level penalties, no event bonus, 5% ship buffs, 5% VOM, 30% XP pot, 10% VIP XP, 20% from Greater Tome, no re-entry, no kill bonus and at least 1 death, you're actually looking at:
7,095 Elite
6,825 Hard
6,555 Normal

Your math is wrong, and you know it. The only thing that applies to pure base is repetition, tome, and the quest XP bonus (ransack, conquest, etc). Voice, shrine, pot and VIP applies to final XP count.

[oradafu]

Per wiki: 8,740/9,100/9,460 base

-80% repetition
+20% greater tome
===========
-60% base XP
for 5,244/5,460/5,676

On this value you add:

10% VIP
05% Voice
30% Potion
05% Guild Shrine
==
50% extra XP on completion
for the numbers he give.

At -60% of the base, wouldn't the numbers that you'd be getting for running the quest be 3496/3640/3784 since you're only getting 40% of the base?

[Deadlock]

Your math is wrong, and you know it. The only thing that applies to pure base is repetition, tome, and the quest XP bonus (ransack, conquest, etc). Voice, shrine, pot and VIP applies to final XP count.

I'm not sure if that was supposed to be as rude as it sounds.

Let me correct you.

My math is spot on.

A long time ago I created a model to replicate any situation on a Quest XP report. It's been revised when new things like Tomes XP and VIP XP has been added. Let's just say that it's served me well over the years

Here's an extract of my XP model where unfortunately Google Docs kills the formulas, but hopefully you can follow the math.

Yellow columns are inputs, grey columns are auto-calculated or a repeat from the optional section, green numbers are the results.

If you can tell me what you disagree with, I'll be happy to discuss.

[nibel]

I'm not sure if that was supposed to be as rude as it sounds.

Let me correct you.

At -60% of the base, wouldn't the numbers that you'd be getting for running the quest be 3496/3640/3784 since you're only getting 40% of the base?

And I stand corrected. My math was wrong. I miscalculated with 60% base instead of 40%.

[oradafu]

Since people are worried that Litany might be ran by people until they hit 20, I thought I'd compare its XP against other quests real quick.

The numbers that I came up with for Litany with the -80% penalty + 20% Greater Tome and nothing else would be:
3496/3640/3784

The following are base XP for some level 18 and 19 quests. (BTW with the Greater Tome, the numbers are less than 1000 XP higher):

3826/3964/4102 Dream Conspiracy
3826/3964/4102 Finding the Path
3826/3964/4102 The Mindsunder
3534/3657/3780 Blown to Bits
3964/4102/4240 Reclaiming Memories
3460/3580/3700 The Weapons Shipment
2321/2401/2480 Wrath of the Flame

Those are the most egregious XP wise in the level 18 to 19 range, but not the most time-consuming of quests, which barely has better XP that the above. For example, Schemes of the Enemy has 4132/4276/4420 base XP.

So yes, after getting the first time bonus out of the way for some of these quests and others in the same level range, it would seem that farming Litany would be the way to go. No, I'm not calling for a reduction in XP for Litany, but an increase in XP to ALL the quests in the upper heroics. It's really sad that the base XP for elite quests in the upper heroics average to about 4500 xp (which is about the average for quests from levels 12+) and Normal Epic quests start around 12k... and people wonder why players are searching for the fastest way to get to level 20.

[caissede12]

I'm not calling for a reduction in XP for Litany, but an increase in XP to ALL the quests in the upper heroics. It's really sad that the base XP for elite quests in the upper heroics average to about 4500 xp (which is about the average for quests from levels 12+) and Normal Epic quests start around 12k... and people wonder why players are searching for the fastest way to get to level 20.

Everyone seems to agree about this, and I still dont understand why DEVs have not looked into it (or it they have (probably did) why they dont give any feedback about it. I would prefer 20x more for the quest to have higher and more "realistic" xp (Since for me, it is non-realistic that a quest lvl 19 that take 2-3 more time to complete than a lvl 12 give 2x less xp). The xp curve change might help a little, but is still quite... I wouldnt say stupid but... non-logical? every time I see those number, I laugh and wonder how they ended up this way (Well, I heard it was because back when the lvlcap was 20, they though it wouldnt matter much since it was to get to cap... but now its just purely illogical and wonder it hasnt been fixed yet :P)

[LightBear]

What is the name of that quest you need to run 4 times to flag for Abbot?


The numbers on this quest ransack are totally out of sinc.

I could live with a -5% to the base xp on each completion after the E/H/N are flagged.
This stacking up to a 30% penalty to that quest's base xp.
And I could live with the penalty being lowered by 10% each day so you can re-enter it again without a penalty after 3 days.

Did anybody check what the effect of this is for 20th raid and/or 3th quest arc completions?

I'm even more concerned what the effect of this is for the levels 15-20, hardly any xp there.

And does it reset after a day if you did not go beyond the initial E/H/N on the first day?
If so do you get the E/H/N first time completions again on that second day?