HP Calculation

[culdraug]

I lost over 40 hps in the new system. How is it calculated and what can I do to get it back?

[gflash]

Racial/Class Toughness Enhancements are gone for many trees. The only way to get part of it back would be investing heavily in a tree that gives HP; but i think most builds will loose some HP at the end.

[richieelias27]

On the other hand it does free up a feat slot, since toughness is no longer a required feat on every single build.

[Danemoth]

Reincarnate into a Dwarf. You'll get +2 Con, +30 HP, and +6% HP with a small investment in AP.

[Charononus]

On the other hand it does free up a feat slot, since toughness is no longer a required feat on every single build.

This quote bothers me, so you advocate losing 68hp instead of 40? On some builds that get hp per point in tree maybe on everyone else it just creates a bigger nerf.

[Noctus]

With the current enhancemnt system Thoughnessis a mandatory feat for every build. Thus it isnt really a featchoice, but a feattax. So you could as well leave out the whole featslot and give its bonus to all chars flat.

This leads to the effect that all characters only have 6 heroic featslots to choose what goes in, instead of he 7 they nominally have. This is bad design, and thus they will change the system to make a feattax into a true featchoice.

This change is a good change. As you now have 1 more feat and several APs to play with, which were previously ALWAYS tied up in Thoughness and related enhancements.

As now we have discussed the basiscs and the reasosn of this change, lets take a look at the effects:
Characters will face a netloss of some HP, but also gain freed up AP and a feat with can get other relevant boni then flat +HP effects, whose boost-effect have to be set in relation to the nerf-effect of less HP.

Effects may vary for each characterbuild. But to decry it as a flatout nerf is hyperbole, as you loss as well as gain (effectively +1 general feat and about a dozen APs) from the change.

[Charononus]

With the current enhancemnt system Thoughnessis a mandatory feat for every build. Thus it isnt really a featchoice, but a feattax. So you could as well leave out the whole featslot and give its bonus to all chars flat.

This leads to the effect that all characters only have 6 heroic featslots to choose what goes in, instead of he 7 they nominally have. This is bad design, and thus they will change the system to make a feattax into a true featchoice.

This change is a good change. As you now have 1 more feat and several APs to play with, which were previously ALWAYS tied up in Thoughness and related enhancements.

As now we have discussed the basiscs and the reasosn of this change, lets take a look at the effects:
Characters will face a netloss of some HP, but also gain freed up AP and a feat with can get other relevant boni then flat +HP effects, whose boost-effect have to be set in relation to the nerf-effect of less HP.

Effects may vary for each characterbuild. But to decry it as a flatout nerf is hyperbole, as you loss as well as gain (effectively +1 general feat and about a dozen APs) from the change.

hp are you buffer to not be a soulstone when everything else fails. You still need toughness unless you want to lose even more than what the nerf already makes you lose. if you are unhappy about losing 20 lets say, why would you want to make yourself lose 28 more on top of that?

[Enoach]

under the new system there are fewer enhancements for classes and races and the classes and races that had more enhancements available will see a bigger gap, and 40 seems about where I felt this gap would lie.

Class/Race combos that only had two racial enhancements will see +20 HP if they maintain the Toughness Feat. And if they choose to not keep the toughness feat but instead trade it for something they feel is more useful than 28 HP, they will see -8 HP over live.

The reason is because:
The Heroic Feat granted at level 1 now comes with +5 more HP
For every 5 Levels of a class you get +5 HP (Hoping this becomes just Character Level so as not to rob splash builds)
A HP enhancement exists in a tree available allowing up to +15 HP

Don't get me wrong the toughness feat is still going to be needed by some, the difference is that it will not be needed by all.

[Therigar]

On the other hand it does free up a feat slot, since toughness is no longer a required feat on every single build.

This quote bothers me, so you advocate losing 68hp instead of 40? On some builds that get hp per point in tree maybe on everyone else it just creates a bigger nerf.

I think that it is correct that Toughness will (and probably should already) be off the "must have" feat list. There are often better choices and with the surplus of ways to increase hit points presently in the game the benefit of Toughness is already suspect for a very large number of builds.

Reincarnate into a Dwarf. You'll get +2 Con, +30 HP, and +6% HP with a small investment in AP.

See that "+6%" comment. Here's something that most players can do already to increase hit points in a dramatic fashion -- choose something that gives a flat % increase to current numbers.

The whole change in the enhancement system means that most of what we know right now about character builds is meaningless. Combine this with epic destinies and twists and there is a whole new mind set that is coming.

I changed the way I viewed my character and adjusted my stats and stances. I now have MORE hit points, MORE armor class and MORE physical resistance -- all of which make the character MORE survivable. The loss of racial toughness enhancements isn't even noticed.

[Charononus]

I think that it is correct that Toughness will (and probably should already) be off the "must have" feat list. There are often better choices and with the surplus of ways to increase hit points presently in the game the benefit of Toughness is already suspect for a very large number of builds.

There are many ways to increase hp now, you can still do all of them after the pass but you lose 1 way to get them, 10>9>8>7 and so on. If you take something away there are less.

The whole change in the enhancement system means that most of what we know right now about character builds is meaningless. Combine this with epic destinies and twists and there is a whole new mind set that is coming.

Hp increases in ed's come from us,ld, and fotw. If you want to play a monk lets say in gmof you don't see this hp increase from ed's that you think exists.

I changed the way I viewed my character and adjusted my stats and stances. I now have MORE hit points, MORE armor class and MORE physical resistance -- all of which make the character MORE survivable. The loss of racial toughness enhancements isn't even noticed.

Please explain how less options gives you more of something 10>9 btw.

[Deadlock]

Didn't see any changes in the enhancements last week to change these numbers, they might change this week. Comparison of old and new HP breaks down as:

Race /Class                 Current        New        Diff        +HP%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heroic Durability                20         25         + 5
Improved Heroic Durability Max    0         20(i)      +20
Improved Heroic Durability Min    0         10(ii)     +10

Bladeforged                      40         20         -20
Drow                             20          0         -20
Dwarf                            40         30(iii)    -10        + 4%
Elf                              20          0         -20
Halfling                         20          0         -20
Half-Elf                         30          0         -30
Half-Orc                         20(iv)      0         -20
Human                            30          0         -30
Warforged                        40         40           0

Artificer                         0          0           0
Barbarian                        40         30(v)      -10
Bard                              0         30(vi)     +30
Cleric                            0         15(vii)    +15
Druid                            40         72(viii)   +32
Favored Soul                     40         15(ix)     -25
Fighter Min                      40         15(x)      -25
Fighter Max                      40         75(xi)     +35        +20%
Half-Elf Barbarian Dilettante	 20         15         - 5
Monk                             20         35(xii)    +15        + 3%
Paladin                          40         79(xiii)   +39        +20%
Ranger                            0          0           0
Rogue                             0          0           0
Sorcerer                          0          0           0
Wizard                           20         15(xiv)    - 5

(i)    +5 HP per 5 CLASS levels, max = 5/15, 10/10 or 5/5/10
(ii)   +5 HP per 5 CLASS levels, min = 4/4/12
(iii)  Racial enhancement Child of the Mountain = +4% Max HP
(iv)   Should never have been 20, min 30 or more likely 40
(v)    Frenzied Berserker core abilities = 20 HP
(vi)   Warchanter core abilities = 30 HP
(Vii)  Protection Tier 1 Toughness = 15 HP
(viii) Nature's Warrior Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP, need FEAT: Dodge
(ix)   Protection Tier 1 Toughness = 15 HP
(x)    Kensai Tier 2 Ascetic Training = 15 HP
(xi)   Stalwart Defender Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP, need FEAT: Improved Shield Bash
(xii)  Shintao Tier 2 Conditioning = 15 HP, Shintao Tier 5 Meditation of War = +3% HP in Earth Stance, Henshin Mystic Tier 1 Way of the Patient Tortoise = 20 HP at 15
(xiii) Sacred Defender Tree = 1 HP / Point spent, max 80, Core abilities do not count for HP
(xiv)  Pale Master Tier 1 Deathless Vigor = 15 HP, difference is now an Archmage can select from it too, so they'll benefit

[mikarddo]

The major nerf to HP for human FvS is staggering. Its not like divines were top of the heap in any way - and now this? I know I have submitted bug reports and surveys more than once on this - but to no effect. Sadness.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

The major nerf to HP for human FvS is staggering. Its not like divines were top of the heap in any way - and now this? I know I have submitted bug reports and surveys more than once on this - but to no effect. Sadness.

keep in mind that's only, ONLY if you spent the 6 AP on human toughness and the 10 AP on FVS toughness. So, that was 1/5 of your AP for 70 hp.

So, on a 15/x/y fvs, you lose 50 hp if, and only if you spent all your AP on toughness. If, however, you only spent 2 ap for 20hp, you're EXACTLY THE SAME.(providing you take the toughness feat).

[Therigar]

If you want to play a monk lets say in gmof you don't see this hp increase from ed's that you think exists.

You know, less is less. You are right. But, the impact of less being less is not all doom and gloom.

Less HP with higher AC and PRR turns out to be more survivability. And that is because the formula for finding optimal survivability combines multiple elements that are mutually limiting. Raise one and you must lower one or more of the others.

So, lowering HP by 10% will be fewer HP. No question about it. But, that may result in increasing AC by 20% and PRR by 80% which means that in the total survivability calculations you end up ahead.

Funny, but that means less actually IS more.

People who rely on HP are still stuck in an old mind set. It is HP + AC + PRR + Dodge + Concealment + Ethereal + feat/enhancement/gear auto miss chance.

As to GMoF, I don't think I've seen a monk in GMoF in months. EiN is fun, but there are better choices for almost every player depending on their play style. I'm sort of curious about the Henshin tree and say Shiradi....

But, arguing GMoF is weak from the get go.

[Thrudh]

I lost over 40 hps in the new system. How is it calculated and what can I do to get it back?

What class and race?

We now get 20 extra hp for free... so 2 ranks of racial toughness has been given to us for free.

which is what most of my guys had, so I broke even.

My barb and my fighter lost 10 hp each (which is nothing when you have 800-900).

What class/race combo were you to have lost 40? You must have spent a lot of points on toughness enhancements...

[Thrudh]

Please explain how less options gives you more of something 10>9 btw.

There are MORE options with this new enhancement system.

You can take a few ranks in multiple PrEs, something you never could before... Get +3 tactical feats and extra damage from Kensai AND hp and PRR from Stalwart Defender.

Have you logged into Lamannia in the last week?

[Tscheuss]

Less options can give more when the remaining options are buffed.

[Charononus]

You know, less is less. You are right. But, the impact of less being less is not all doom and gloom.

Less HP with higher AC and PRR turns out to be more survivability. And that is because the formula for finding optimal survivability combines multiple elements that are mutually limiting. Raise one and you must lower one or more of the others.

So, lowering HP by 10% will be fewer HP. No question about it. But, that may result in increasing AC by 20% and PRR by 80% which means that in the total survivability calculations you end up ahead.

Funny, but that means less actually IS more.

Please tell me how the change in toughness enhancements results in either more ac or more prr, not that ac means jack, ac is more worthless than ever. I agree that prr displacement and incorp are important though.

There are MORE options with this new enhancement system.

You can take a few ranks in multiple PrEs, something you never could before... Get +3 tactical feats and extra damage from Kensai AND hp and PRR from Stalwart Defender.

Have you logged into Lamannia in the last week?

3 tactical feats has nothing to do with the removal of toughness and the lowering of hp, they are independent concepts that have been put together in a box that is the ep.

[Thrudh]

3 tactical feats has nothing to do with the removal of toughness and the lowering of hp, they are independent concepts that have been put together in a box that is the ep.

This doesn't make sense to me... These things do not exist in a vacuum...

If you lose 40 hp, but gain 100 damage per swing, would you still be screaming nerf! (I'm guessing many people on these boards would).

Getting +3 to tactics DC is not something a barb/fighter could get before. Now I can.. .it's a buff, and well worth the loss of a few hit points.

[Vellrad]

When I logged in my main I lost 60 HP right away (30 racial 10 ftr 20 guild).

After respending AP I have similiar value as on live server, but I didn't bothered with swapping out now worthless toughness feat yet.