cleric iconic need improvement!

[decease]

blessing of amaunator- three bless per rest? are you serious? those newbie brace on korthos island give 3 use... spell resist- not much useful... mass deathward- useful.. but how manytime do you need to cast it................. do we really need to cast it more then once between rest? solution is: 1) make this buff unable to be dispell by beholder.. 2) charge regain every three minute.

rejuvenation- two use per rest that remove all condition and heal 10000.. hmm this seem to be the faith ability all cleric get at level 6.. however this new iconic does not get that power at level 6.. instead we have to spend enhancement point to acquire it.. and it doesn't regain like normal ones... sound much much inferior to me..

most core ability are tied to range.. so is some end trait.. while weapon of choice only have mace available?? add long bow to the list please...

why is there only one deity to choose from? we must worship that one god?.. if so add a ability for level 6 like all other faith have....


p.s. this iconic is overall weak and useless.. a cleric don't need int.. a wizard don't need cleric level.. a rogue don't need cleric level.. a artificer don't need a cleric level.. what do we do with the int? this iconic is poor design that it is not fit for multiclass and it is a terrible choice stand alone.. please consider revamp some of the ability.

[Scrag]

blessing of amaunator- three bless per rest? are you serious? those newbie brace on korthos island give 3 use... spell resist- not much useful... mass deathward- useful.. but how manytime do you need to cast it................. do we really need to cast it more then once between rest? solution is: 1) make this buff unable to be dispell by beholder.. 2) charge regain every three minute.

rejuvenation- two use per rest that remove all condition and heal 10000.. hmm this seem to be the faith ability all cleric get at level 6.. however this new iconic does not get that power at level 6.. instead we have to spend enhancement point to acquire it.. and it doesn't regain like normal ones... sound much much inferior to me..

most core ability are tied to range.. so is some end trait.. while weapon of choice only have mace available?? add long bow to the list please...

why is there only one deity to choose from? we must worship that one god?.. if so add a ability for level 6 like all other faith have....


p.s. this iconic is overall weak and useless.. a cleric don't need int.. a wizard don't need cleric level.. a rogue don't need cleric level.. a artificer don't need a cleric level.. what do we do with the int? this iconic is poor design that it is not fit for multiclass and it is a terrible choice stand alone.. please consider revamp some of the ability.

Agreed. At the very least we should be able to play drow sun clerics. At least THEY get some relevant stat bonuses....

[samthedagger]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Speaking as a cleric player, the iconic offers some very interesting options.

Let's start with the blessing of Amanautor. Three times per rest is very useful for a buff that provides three spells in one and may need to be cast multiple times in long raids, especially after a series of deaths. Many people look down on spell resistance, but I always prep and cast mass spell resistance on the party before a raid as part of the "axer package." While it may not defray any of the nastiest effects, it can help shrug off some of the minor ones from some of the lesser trash mobs, of which there are often many. In my opinion, if a spell can prevent even one negative effect, it is a good use of a cleric spell. Mass death ward is something you are going to prep anyway and cast every time the party needs to regroup for rebuffing. Mass aid is mildly useful and enough so that I always cast it. Temp hp are lost quick, but they provide an extra cushion for those initial frays into raids where things often get dicey quickly. And +1 to hit and save vs. fear is useful, especially if there is no bard in the party. So you save spell points, spell slots, and get to refresh three mass buffs three times if needed quickly which you were probably going to cast anyway. You might even save yourself some hotbar spots. Finally, it can be accessed at a relatively low level if planned right. Even having it at the starting iconic level 15 I consider a boon.

Rejuvenation is where you arguably have a point. They may need to look into this one. Perhaps it is merely an oversight.

Most core abilities are tied to ranged, which is something most pure clerics will not attempt. However, I can imagine a Rgr1/Mnk2/Clr17 doing VERY well with this build, especially with access to Arcane Archer. And after all, you have so many options at your behest now with THREE different cleric prestige paths to choose from you are hardly required to rely on the core race abilities. I found many of the racial abilities to be quite useful. It is handy to have elven arcanum on a caster-based evoker cleric for example, which looks like it might be somewhat viable with this build.

Iconics are all forced into certain choices as what I suppose is a balancing point to their starting at level 15 with some better-than-standard racial stats and abilities. Being forced to choose Amaunator is hardly unwarranted in that case. Bladeforged have to worship the Lord of Blades. I agree perhaps they need an automatic ability at level 6 like the other divines, but I think it is possible you are having a knee-jerk reaction to this and overlooking some of the benefits.

What use does a cleric have for Int? Well, with the new uses for Heal and Spellcraft, quite a lot I imagine. You used to be able to get away with a cleric with only 10 Int (or 8 if you were human) and still have enough for Concentration and Use Magic Device (or Balance if that was your preference). Now it is easier to fit those points in on a Sun Elf. When I built mine, I actually found it quite useful to have the +2 Int in order to fit in maximum ranks for these two new skills (I am calling Heal a new skill because it was never seriously considered before). Also, there is a bit of lore that goes along with sun elves. They have always been more intelligent than moon elves (the latter of which represents the "standard" elf in Forgotten Realms).

Now the weapon attack enhancement line... well, I don't think you will see many Morninglord battle clerics running around wielding maces, but the enhancement line is more than that. You get bonuses to mauls and hammers in addition to maces. You never know. Some clever player may find a way to make a hammer-wielding Morninglord a useful character (although I expect it to involve some multiclassing). Ftr3/Clr17 with Kensai for hammers could potentially work (I am imagining a lot of stunning), as might a Rgr3/Clr17 with Tempest. It might not be an optimal battle cleric build, but it is there for players to experiment with and see if they can work something out of it. This really looks to me like an enhancement line built in mind for those players who want to focus on melee and possible splash some martial class levels. At any rate, even if you see no use for it for your own purposes, with all the love that clerics are getting in general, this is hardly a difficult sell.

But where I really need to disagree with you is that you seem to have completely overlooked the other Morninglord enhancements which are really a boon to the cleric.

1) Bane of the restless is pretty incredible. 3 ranks raises your turn level by 6 AND adds 18d6 light damage to a turn. So even if the turn fails, you get some light damage. Show me another racial enhancement line that is so clearly geared towards clerics and so highly beneficial. This ability in combination with improved turning x3, seek eternal rest, and an eternal faith item (which appears to still stack with seek eternal rest) gives you a whopping turn level of 30 starting at level 15. This lets you turn undead from level 26-34 (and with mighty turning even destroy them!), so this isn't too shabby. In fact, it will let you turn undead in Orchard with ease so I'd say this enhancement is pretty awesome.

2) Arcanum. Spell points and spell penetration. Perfect choices for a caster cleric.

3) Light of the sun god. +30 to spell power??? Yes, please! If I am going to build a light-focused divine disciple this would be a no-brainer.

4) Aura of radiance. An obvious choice for a melee cleric or a tank cleric.

But in truth all of them have merits. Perhaps you were expecting that every single enhancement in the sun elf racial enhancement tree was going to min/max one type of build. Well, that isn't the way it is. The racial tree provides many different options which are all interesting ways to approach a build and make it your own. Cleric arcane archers, tempests, kensais, tanks, all kinds of battle clerics, light-based direct damage casters, evokers, they all have potential with this iconic. I expect to see some very interesting things.

Edit: I forgot to mention Amaunator's Brilliance, which is a really useful SLA for clerics. All metamagics work with it and it is relatively cheap for what it does.

[Starla70]

I am still new at working with this cleric. However, since in my guild we are a team based play style, I really like the possibilities of this. Yes it could use some more of what it is given. I think there is alot of play room to work with it here. Ithink the only one God is pretty standard for the Iconics from what I have seen. They are starting with a back story. Which I find refreshing.

[decease]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

Speaking as a cleric player, the iconic offers some very interesting options.

Let's start with the blessing of Amanautor. Three times per rest is very useful for a buff that provides three spells in one and may need to be cast multiple times in long raids, especially after a series of deaths. Many people look down on spell resistance, but I always prep and cast mass spell resistance on the party before a raid as part of the "axer package." While it may not defray any of the nastiest effects, it can help shrug off some of the minor ones from some of the lesser trash mobs, of which there are often many. In my opinion, if a spell can prevent even one negative effect, it is a good use of a cleric spell. Mass death ward is something you are going to prep anyway and cast every time the party needs to regroup for rebuffing. Mass aid is mildly useful and enough so that I always cast it. Temp hp are lost quick, but they provide an extra cushion for those initial frays into raids where things often get dicey quickly. And +1 to hit and save vs. fear is useful, especially if there is no bard in the party. So you save spell points, spell slots, and get to refresh three mass buffs three times if needed quickly which you were probably going to cast anyway. You might even save yourself some hotbar spots. Finally, it can be accessed at a relatively low level if planned right. Even having it at the starting iconic level 15 I consider a boon.

Rejuvenation is where you arguably have a point. They may need to look into this one. Perhaps it is merely an oversight.

Most core abilities are tied to ranged, which is something most pure clerics will not attempt. However, I can imagine a Rgr1/Mnk2/Clr17 doing VERY well with this build, especially with access to Arcane Archer. And after all, you have so many options at your behest now with THREE different cleric prestige paths to choose from you are hardly required to rely on the core race abilities. I found many of the racial abilities to be quite useful. It is handy to have elven arcanum on a caster-based evoker cleric for example, which looks like it might be somewhat viable with this build.

Iconics are all forced into certain choices as what I suppose is a balancing point to their starting at level 15 with some better-than-standard racial stats and abilities. Being forced to choose Amaunator is hardly unwarranted in that case. Bladeforged have to worship the Lord of Blades. I agree perhaps they need an automatic ability at level 6 like the other divines, but I think it is possible you are having a knee-jerk reaction to this and overlooking some of the benefits.

What use does a cleric have for Int? Well, with the new uses for Heal and Spellcraft, quite a lot I imagine. You used to be able to get away with a cleric with only 10 Int (or 8 if you were human) and still have enough for Concentration and Use Magic Device (or Balance if that was your preference). Now it is easier to fit those points in on a Sun Elf. When I built mine, I actually found it quite useful to have the +2 Int in order to fit in maximum ranks for these two new skills (I am calling Heal a new skill because it was never seriously considered before). Also, there is a bit of lore that goes along with sun elves. They have always been more intelligent than moon elves (the latter of which represents the "standard" elf in Forgotten Realms).

Now the weapon attack enhancement line... well, I don't think you will see many Morninglord battle clerics running around wielding maces, but the enhancement line is more than that. You get bonuses to mauls and hammers in addition to maces. You never know. Some clever player may find a way to make a hammer-wielding Morninglord a useful character (although I expect it to involve some multiclassing). Ftr3/Clr17 with Kensai for hammers could potentially work (I am imagining a lot of stunning), as might a Rgr3/Clr17 with Tempest. It might not be an optimal battle cleric build, but it is there for players to experiment with and see if they can work something out of it. This really looks to me like an enhancement line built in mind for those players who want to focus on melee and possible splash some martial class levels. At any rate, even if you see no use for it for your own purposes, with all the love that clerics are getting in general, this is hardly a difficult sell.

But where I really need to disagree with you is that you seem to have completely overlooked the other Morninglord enhancements which are really a boon to the cleric.

1) Bane of the restless is pretty incredible. 3 ranks raises your turn level by 6 AND adds 18d6 light damage to a turn. So even if the turn fails, you get some light damage. Show me another racial enhancement line that is so clearly geared towards clerics and so highly beneficial. This ability in combination with improved turning x3, seek eternal rest, and an eternal faith item (which appears to still stack with seek eternal rest) gives you a whopping turn level of 30 starting at level 15. This lets you turn undead from level 26-34 (and with mighty turning even destroy them!), so this isn't too shabby. In fact, it will let you turn undead in Orchard with ease so I'd say this enhancement is pretty awesome.

2) Arcanum. Spell points and spell penetration. Perfect choices for a caster cleric.

3) Light of the sun god. +30 to spell power??? Yes, please! If I am going to build a light-focused divine disciple this would be a no-brainer.

4) Aura of radiance. An obvious choice for a melee cleric or a tank cleric.

But in truth all of them have merits. Perhaps you were expecting that every single enhancement in the sun elf racial enhancement tree was going to min/max one type of build. Well, that isn't the way it is. The racial tree provides many different options which are all interesting ways to approach a build and make it your own. Cleric arcane archers, tempests, kensais, tanks, all kinds of battle clerics, light-based direct damage casters, evokers, they all have potential with this iconic. I expect to see some very interesting things.

Edit: I forgot to mention Amaunator's Brilliance, which is a really useful SLA for clerics. All metamagics work with it and it is relatively cheap for what it does.

1) three spell in one? more like one spell alone.. do you ever see anyone casting bless or spell resistance in end game raid? bless is moral base, which bards will offer way better option. spell resistance is mostly useless before epic and totally useless at epic.. so three times per day mass deathward.. it would be nice if they are free.. but no.. it cost ap.. i would rather spend sp then ap..

2) sun elf does not get bow strength, and it is quite impossible to fit in any cleric build. normal elven race may use dex both as damage and to hit mod. but sun elf do not have access to this.. also more importantly they do not get specialized with range weapon.. their only specialized weapon is mace. which make they way inferior choice to normal elf race.

3) third cleric do have access to "three" prestige, but they are mostly not that good.. unless you are caster type.. as for tanking.. hmm.. am not sure about cleric tank.. not sure if thats even viable..

[samthedagger]

1) three spell in one? more like one spell alone.. do you ever see anyone casting bless or spell resistance in end game raid? bless is moral base, which bards will offer way better option. spell resistance is mostly useless before epic and totally useless at epic.. so three times per day mass deathward.. it would be nice if they are free.. but no.. it cost ap.. i would rather spend sp then ap..

Again, I disagree. First of all, not every raid includes a bard. In fact, I'd say that at least half my raids, even guild raids, end up without a bard in the party. So Aid (temp hp + bless) is still useful. Second, Spell Resistance is indeed useful in end game. I just ran a Caught in the Web on Sunday and noticed at least three times that a spell bounced off of my character because of spell resistance. Now, I probably got hit by spells far more often. But the fact is, it does provide a small amount of protection, which is less time the healers need to spend on healing/removing debuffs.

2) sun elf does not get bow strength, and it is quite impossible to fit in any cleric build. normal elven race may use dex both as damage and to hit mod. but sun elf do not have access to this.. also more importantly they do not get specialized with range weapon.. their only specialized weapon is mace. which make they way inferior choice to normal elf race.

Impossible? Hardly. I imagine a Rgr2/Mnk1/Clr17 or Rgr1/Mnk2/Clr17 could work quite well if you took Zen Archery.

3) third cleric do have access to "three" prestige, but they are mostly not that good.. unless you are caster type.. as for tanking.. hmm.. am not sure about cleric tank.. not sure if thats even viable..

I played around with the cleric enhancements quite extensively. My main is a cleric and has been that way since I started playing three and a half years ago. I think the enhancements are a significant improvement when taken as a whole. And tank clerics do quite well thank you very much. My cleric can tank the Stormreaver on Ehard without difficulty (haven't tried EE since I see no good incentive to try aside from bragging rights). I didn't get the chance to try it during the last closed beta, but I don't see anything taking away from that ability. Clerics get heavy armor proficiency (read: PRR) and can use a Madstone Aegis or other Tower Shield of your choice just as well as anyone else so long as they aren't relying on melee damage to generate threat. An epic level cleric in EA can build up Endless Ardor stacks much more quickly now thanks to the Divine Disciple enhancements which means more Divine Wrath more often.

Again, I think you were expecting something different from the Morninglord. I think it's a fine addition to the game. It could use a few tweaks, but on the whole I judge it to be very playable and enjoyable.

[Leclaire1]

I agree with Sam here. I realize some hardcore power-gamers may not like that the devs sided with dnd lore here and went for an intelligence increase over something more functional, but I think the class is overall well-designed, and would be particularly useful for raid healing, buffing, and cc (due to spell pen from arcanum) which is what healers are supposed to be about. There is also good offensive casting potential. I play a few healers on live, and will roll one of these up and play it with enthusiasm. Nice job.

[decease]

Again, I disagree. First of all, not every raid includes a bard. In fact, I'd say that at least half my raids, even guild raids, end up without a bard in the party. So Aid (temp hp + bless) is still useful. Second, Spell Resistance is indeed useful in end game. I just ran a Caught in the Web on Sunday and noticed at least three times that a spell bounced off of my character because of spell resistance. Now, I probably got hit by spells far more often. But the fact is, it does provide a small amount of protection, which is less time the healers need to spend on healing/removing debuffs.

alot of things are moral bonus.. first this spell is very easy to scroll.. even with just one point in umd.. second there are great many heroism/great heroism clicky. third.. heroism spell is very common in every raid.. even if there be no caster there are always umd toon to do it. also we now have good amount of permanent heroism equipment..

Impossible? Hardly. I imagine a Rgr2/Mnk1/Clr17 or Rgr1/Mnk2/Clr17 could work quite well if you took Zen Archery.

there are really no point in these build.. since ten thousand star been made into a feat.. as a cleric your bab is medium so you will not do as much damage as pure ranger/monk would. and your healing will suck.. because this is a very feat starve build. likely you will not have extra feat for healing metamagic..

p.s. on other other hand.. there are totally no reason to make this build with this iconic.. elf/helf are way superior in all situation for this sort of build. almost none of the mournlord ability actually benefit range weapon.. which is a part of my suggestion.. to give them range specialization.. so there are actually reason to build range character with this iconic..

I played around with the cleric enhancements quite extensively. My main is a cleric and has been that way since I started playing three and a half years ago. I think the enhancements are a significant improvement when taken as a whole. And tank clerics do quite well thank you very much. My cleric can tank the Stormreaver on Ehard without difficulty (haven't tried EE since I see no good incentive to try aside from bragging rights). I didn't get the chance to try it during the last closed beta, but I don't see anything taking away from that ability. Clerics get heavy armor proficiency (read: PRR) and can use a Madstone Aegis or other Tower Shield of your choice just as well as anyone else so long as they aren't relying on melee damage to generate threat. An epic level cleric in EA can build up Endless Ardor stacks much more quickly now thanks to the Divine Disciple enhancements which means more Divine Wrath more often.

tried tanking citw or fot? a tank only suitable for minor raid and doesn't justify enough at healing is rather not very convincing

Again, I think you were expecting something different from the Morninglord. I think it's a fine addition to the game. It could use a few tweaks, but on the whole I judge it to be very playable and enjoyable.

well it is fine by me.. i sorta give up hope in turbine.. along with this game.. so i don't really care anymore.. say what you will.. this be my last reply to this topic