Replace Wail of the Banshee in bard spell list

[Chette]

Since the other thread regarding this topic was deleted (or was it just moved? I can't find it) I'm starting another one.

Wail on a bard is a useless spell. Bards have no enhancements to improve their necromancy DC. Unlike wizards they have no spare feats to use to increase their necromancy DC. They cast at max spell level 6 instead of 9 like wizards/sorcs, and they have no access to other necromancy spells for debuffing, like enervate, energy drain, circle of death and symbol of death.

Wail of the banshee on a bard will be worthless in anything above epic casual. This is an exceptionally poor choice of spell for a caster bard to get, and we all know that bards are in dire need of additional spells.

Please consider replacing this spell with "Mass Hold Monster". This is a spell that bards would actually be able to cast effectively, and may possibly make caster bards useful again (though lets not get ahead of ourselves here, they still can't damage anything!) Increasing the spell level to level 9 instead of 6 might also be necessary to make caster bards competitive, but even just giving them the spell would be a great start.

[LilyOphelia]

They have no access to other necromancy spells for debuffing, like enervate, energy drain, circle of death and symbol of death.

I am not at all saying you're wrong here, about the wail spell. But I do know that you can UMD Enervation from a scroll; there's no save, but there is a spell pen check. Totally random thing I thought to add when I read your post!

[PublicEnemy]

I fully agree to the fact that bards need mass hold in their spell list, as a crowd control oriented class, they deserve to have one of the best spell from it.

[jskinner937]

Or rather than remove, make wail an evocation focus for a bard and be cast as a level 9 spell. Speaking of which, any spell that is heightened really should be able to be cast at level 9 (since this is the highest spell in any casters book), regardless if they are arty or bard.

[BoBoDaClown]

Absolutely.

Daft choice of a spell - it will be completely useless.

Mass Hold Monster, on the other hand, would be absolutely fantastic,

Easy swap.

[Humperdink]

Absolutely.

Daft choice of a spell - it will be completely useless.

Mass Hold Monster, on the other hand, would be absolutely fantastic,

Easy swap.

I agree with BoBo. Mass Hold Monster should absolutely be available to a bard. Or just add it in and leave WotB, which can aid Enchantment school DCs as well:

"Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels."

Each neg level is -2 to saves.

[Chette]

Pretty disappointing that we haven't seen any response to this, or really to any of the issues that have been brought up relating to Bards. I think we've been forgotten

[Wanesa]

wail is still work as debuff spell with no save. in combination with mass suggestion it can help or not?

edit: Wail followed by fascinate ?

[nayozz]

signed: swap with mass hold monster plz make my dream come true

[Wanesa]

signed: swap with mass hold monster plz make my dream come true

why? Mass hold will be useless due lack of DC. Bard already has Fascinate and Enthrallment

[Chette]

why? Mass hold will be useless due lack of DC. Bard already has Fascinate and Enthrallment

Not as useless as wail. A bard can still get a decent enchantment DC is they go full force and it fits with the bard thematically. Fascinate and Enthrallment just can't compare, fascinate in particular due to it being lost on hit. Wail is just useless, with absolutely no means at their disposal for increasing the DC. If it's meant to be used as a debuff, then just give them a debuff spell, and something that works better than wail.

[Wanesa]

Not as useless as wail. A bard can still get a decent enchantment DC is they go full force and it fits with the bard thematically. Fascinate and Enthrallment just can't compare, fascinate in particular due to it being lost on hit. Wail is just useless, with absolutely no means at their disposal for increasing the DC. If it's meant to be used as a debuff, then just give them a debuff spell, and something that works better than wail.

I don't plan to boost enchantment it is waste of feat. I can boost necromancy better by gear as well as enchantment. Wail has fortitude save DC. Mass hold has will save DC like fascinate and ethrallment. I complete understand why it will be wail and why it wont be mass hold. Really helps to combine with other spells and abilities.

Why not other debuff? Which one? Wail matches bards playing style. Cast wail, run into crowd of monsters and play fascinate. then you can start your disco

[SerPounce]

/signed Replace Wail with Mass hold

I was actually just to to make a thread about this.

Spell CC is really becoming a lost art anyway as DPS is so high and most melees have stuns with obscene DCs. Giving pure bard spellsingers mass hold would just push them into viability.

Nobody is going to wait for your DC 52 disco ball to CC half the mobs with no helpless bonus when they can stun or or quivering palm them with a DC 65+.

Switch wail for mass hold, and give the bard capstone another +3 enchantment (to make up for their lost spell levels). I know they get +2 or 3 from a t5 enhancement, but they need even more due to heighten only going to 6th level for bards.

Dev response of some sort on this would be great.

[SerPounce]

Cast wail, run into crowd of monsters and play fascinate. then you can start your disco

And neither your wail nor your disco do anything because you split your focus and have useless DCs in both. Ok you get a few neg levels on mobs you don't choose for 50 SP. Better off casting hypnotism.

Wail DC will never be effective on a bard. Not even after multiple debuffs.

[96th_Malice]

Absolutely.

Daft choice of a spell - it will be completely useless.

Mass Hold Monster, on the other hand, would be absolutely fantastic,

Easy swap.

For sure I'd use that

[ZeebaNeighba]

I don't think it needs to be replaced. It still works nicely (when not bugged) as a mass debuff with a chance to kill, and nuking off the max HP of the monsters still has quite a nice effect. My bard has, at level 25, a 54 DC on level 4 enchantment spells and if wail was thrown into a level 6 spell slot (disregarding the rest of the enhancement pass and update 19), I believe it would have a DC around 46 with a greater necro focus item. No, not enough to kill reliably, but I do think it's above a 5% chance, so if I expect only to debuff than it will be nice.

Not that I have anything against mass hold. That would be sweet.

[SerPounce]

I don't think it needs to be replaced. It still works nicely (when not bugged) as a mass debuff with a chance to kill, and nuking off the max HP of the monsters still has quite a nice effect. My bard has, at level 25, a 54 DC on level 4 enchantment spells and if wail was thrown into a level 6 spell slot (disregarding the rest of the enhancement pass and update 19), I believe it would have a DC around 46 with a greater necro focus item. No, not enough to kill reliably, but I do think it's above a 5% chance, so if I expect only to debuff than it will be nice.

Not that I have anything against mass hold. That would be sweet.

Really guys? 50 sp (!) for a debuff that takes 6 seconds to apply? Then what, you cast your disco ball? Depending on the DPS of your party by the time that ball actually appears the barbarian is either going to be finishing off the last mob, or they'll all have moved on to the next room and it's just going to be you and a bugged out cosmetic pet attending your own little dance party.

Even a perfect disco ball that requires no debuffing is pretty meh these days. Too slow to cast, delayed effect, and doesn't render mobs helpless.

Most wizards don't even bother with the superior mass hold anymore. I don't think it's too much to ask that bards get a spell that's not good enough for most wizards to bother slotting.

[Vellrad]

Wail is no longer instakill due to DC required, bards will be just getting two targets enervation DoT, because this is what wail became.

[Carpone]

Wail is thematically neat for a bard, but the mechanics of DDO make it a wallpaper ability. Pale Masters can't even obtain a DC good enough to use Wail effectively. If the Wail DC for bard was influenced by the Perform skill, then it might be useful.

[maddmatt70]

I would approach this in a different manner. I think wail is actually potentially great for a bard as it would be the only insta kill spell that a bard would have. The problem as others have pointed out is that a bard is not going to get a high enough necromancy dc to make this spell useful. My proposal is make this spell a variant of the wail spell which is based off of enchantment dc or make it implosion instead of wail so it is based on evocation dc which is at least somewhat useful for bards with greater shout et all.

On my spellsinger bard I have a ton of cc options, I also have some evocation options although not great there either, but insta kill I have none. When insta kill was really effective my bards were basically on hiatus. Knowing DDO as I do at some point insta kill will make a comeback and I would rather my bards not go on hiatus at that point so we spellcasting bards need an insta kill optoin.