The Official Shadar-Kai Iconic Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[SqueakofDoom]

We are currently previewing Racial Enhancements on Lamannia.

Please use this thread to share your thoughts on the Shadar-Kai Iconic Enhancement Tree!

You can also discuss the Shadar-Kai Iconic here.

[ComicRelief]

After rolling-up a new Shadra-Kai, here are my initial thoughts on the S-K Racial Enhancement tree:

Overall, I thought it looked good. The enhancements available seem to be a nice cross-section of abilities.

That said, I am highly disappointed that one must now select the "level 1 core enhancement" in order to "unlock" the tree (this applies to ALL new enhancement trees, as well) AND that the level 1 core enhancement now costs 1 AP (instead of the 0 AP that [at least some of them] they were during "alpha").

Additionally, I still...loathe the idea of having spent AP requirements in general, and spent AP requirements "in the tree" in particular, but especially in any of the racial enhancement trees. In my opinion (and it is just that - *MY* opinion), if one is going to insist on having AP spent requirements (as, unfortunately, seems to be the case), one should still do away with "AP spent in tree" for the racial trees (at least). That is, have the APs spent in any of the class trees count towards APs spent in the racial tree, too.

Of course, the proper way to limit certain abilities is by class/character level (as applicable) and not AP spent requirements (once agin, *MY* opinion, though I know others share it). Because all AP spent requirements do is force people to take enhancements they don't want in order to unlockl the ones they do want. Which is a silly mechanic.

BTW - there is what I assume is a bug for the "Whirling Chain" (tier 5) enhancement in that it says it costs 99 AP. Since I assume we are still going to be limited to 80 AP, there is no way to be able to get this enhancement (we'd need to have over 120 APs if it really does indeed cost 99 APs).

Not sure how to "bug it", though.

[Steelstar]

Whirling Chain (T5) was set to 99AP for this round on Lamannia because it wasn't quite ready for action. It will be set to a normal AP cost in an upcoming Lamannia patch.

[Wizza]

Very very disappointed by these Racial Enhancements.

Let's start with the basis:


Core:

Tier 1: Useless but you must take it. You get up faster when stabilized? Who cares?

Tier 2: The usual +Dex/Int/Wis. WHY WIS? For a rogue?! Make it STR.

Tier 3: "You become invisible and are able to move through monsters as if you were ethereal for SIX seconds". Is this even serious? What kind of ability is this? It has ZERO uses with such a short duration. You can't even skip 3 mobs that it turns off. Cooldown 1 min (reduced to 30 sec with Tier 5 lol) J U N K.

Tier 4: "You become invisible and charge forward. During the jaunt, you are able to through monsters as if you were ethereal, lasts 6 seconds" Same as above. Are you guys trying to make all the abilities the same? We have already tumble in EDs (Magister) that pass through enemies and guess who uses it? Noone.

Tier 5: "The cooldown of T3 and T4 are reduced to 30 seconds. In addition, when you use either ability, nearby allies become partially incorporeal" 15% Incorporeal for 6 seconds. Another piece of junk. 5% more than Ghostly, 10% less than Shadow form Shadow fade. No reason to take this at all.


Now to the Racial enhancement themselves:

Tier 1:

Spiked Chain attack (SCA from now on): AoE melee attack that deals 1d6+4 + 1d6 per level to all nearby enemies. Reflex save for half damage. This would actually be decent IF AND ONLY IF it didn't stop you. When you cast it, you stand in the stand, you can't move, can't do anything. If it stays like this, noone will bother with this.

Keen Sense: +1 Listen/Search/Spot

Bold: Fear and Shaken removed after 12/8/4 seconds. Not too bad.

Student of the Pain: When you take damage, you have a 5/10/15% chance to gain 10 AC for 12 seconds. Is this serious? 10 AC? On a rogue? Make is 30 PRR and then we can talk about it. 15% is too low anyway. Up it to 30%.

Stealthy: +1/2/3 Hide and MS



Tier 2:

Vicious Chain: Spiked chain has a chance to cause bleed (Can stack up to 3 times, maybe more but the timer doesn't let you stack it more than 3 times). An addition to Spiked chain so FIX SPIKED CHAIN.

Improved Dodge: Pre-req DODGE feat: +1/2/3 Dodge when wearing light armor or no armor. Good.

Ghostly essence: "When you are below 50% HP, on hit you gain a 25% Incorporality for 6/12/18 seconds. CAN ONLY OCCUR ONCE EVERY TWO MINUTES". The last sentence makes this ability trash. Also, didn't you get the memo that abilities that requires you to be at certain thresold of HP ARE JUNK?

Guile: +1 SA.

Shadow smoke: "Use an action charge to give allies +5/10/15 Hide and MS". Read it again. Should I need to tell you why these is useless? Using an action boost to give 15 HIDE AND MS?





Tier 3:

Slashing chain: Your SCA deals an additional 1d10 slashing damage. FIX SCA.

Forceful chain: Your SCA has a chance to knock enemies down. Chances seems about a 15%. Decent. FIX SCA.

Improved Ghostly essence: when Ghostly essence triggers, all nearby allies gain Incorporality for 6/12/18 seconds. Same problem as Ghostly essence.

Guilde: +1 SA




Tier 4:

Whirling chain: FIX SCA.

Nothing is Hidden: Auto-Search skill check at -12/-8/-4 Penalty. Meh.

Winter Favored: Toggle: 1d6 extra cold damage and 5 cold resistance. Finally something useful. You can have Winter Favored, Venomed blades and Precision all ON at the same time.

Gloom stalker: While in sneak, your weapons make the target vulnerable to SA. Can also blind. No idea why would someone attack from sneak. Bad idea.




Overall, I don't like them. The chain could be nice if it allowed you to move while using it. The only good ability here is Winter favored. I also expected more SA dice. Halflings gain more SA than this Iconic.

[ComicRelief]

Whirling Chain (T5) was set to 99AP for this round on Lamannia because it wasn't quite ready for action. It will be set to a normal AP cost in an upcoming Lamannia patch.

Cool. I did figure out how to "bug it", though - so I did.

[Alistina]

The racial core enhancements are quite idiotic! In fact any buff or buff like ability that you get for 6-12 sec is completely and utterly useless in the game. Hell, it takes longer than 6sec to move a toon with all the lag on live these days

Also, like the 1st post says, the compulsory cost of the 1st AP in a tree is too much. While creating a toon, I find myself taking mostly the things I don't want just so that I can unlock one or two I do need. And this leaves me with no AP to spend on 2nd/3rd tree that I might have wanted to take. This, when I'm not even multiclassing...

[Scrag]

The racial core enhancements are quite idiotic! In fact any buff or buff like ability that you get for 6-12 sec is completely and utterly useless in the game. Hell, it takes longer than 6sec to move a toon with all the lag on live these days

It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

[Alistina]

It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

Not sure what you mean by 'trapped' here. If you are in a niche and wish to cross through unseen without a fight, how are you going to 'escape' undetected in 6 sec?? Again, now sure how often you would actually come across this through out the game, but IMO using bluff would be much simpler to get rid of the big mob blocking your path rather than trying to pass through them n get beaten up and surrounded if the buff thingy end and I'm still in the middle of the crowd.

Anyways, I'm not trying to question your playstyle here, good to know that it will be useful to you. But for me, it is still utterly useless. I would much rather use bluff and fight/ or cast invisi and run through if I really have to. And I'm not just saying it, I have a perma rogue toon who mostly soloes all the way and several other toons with SA with either rogue/monk levels and I don't see myself using it.

It would still be okay if its placed in the enhancements like a tree, so that people who want to can take it if it suits there playstyle, but its definitely not core enhancement worthy.

[Wizza]

It's not useless. Ive been trapped in narrow confines with no way to escape because I could neither jump above, through, or around mobs. It enables you to keep a single front when in a fight. I know several uses I would make of it.... While not "omgpowerwutrudoing", it DEFINITELY has valid, useful, repeat use purposes.

Also: Gloomstalker? It makes them vuln to SA. IE, things like, oh, elementals, golems, undead, undead, undead, general constructs, edge cases, undead are all sneakable. With enough dice and focused SA, you can take down any problem child. Its a one shot version of the thief capstone without having to have a thief capstone. And if your hide is large enough, you can use it multiple times in a fight. It is far far far far far far far from useless.

There is the Shadowdancer ability core Tier 5 that is much more useful than Gloomstalker. Also, Gloomstalker requires you to attack FROM SNEAK to make them Vulnerable. It's an idiotic piece of junk.

Also, I've no idea what you with the first paragraph.

[Steelstar]

There is the Shadowdancer ability core Tier 5 that is much more useful than Gloomstalker. Also, Gloomstalker requires you to attack FROM SNEAK to make them Vulnerable. It's an idiotic piece of junk.

It is, in fact, intended that a ML20 Epic Destiny ability is more powerful than a ML5 Heroic Enhancement.

[Wizza]

It is, in fact, intended that a ML20 Epic Destiny ability is more powerful than a ML5 Heroic Enhancement.

It is not that Steelstar. It is that the ML5 Heroic Enhancement has no uses and it's junk right now. You don't expect people to really sneak before attacking mobs, do you? And when the effect wears off, what do you expect us to do? Sneak mid-combat to try to use again? You know that once you are hit mid-combat you lose sneak right?

If you wanted to give us a way to make mobs vulnerable to SA damage, you could have simply reduced the duration to 6 seconds.

This would be something. But still, there are the T3 and T4 Core abilities that are now one of the worst enhancements added to this game that I've ever seen.


You haven't commented on the other 5/6 of my post thou.

[dlsidhe]

It is not that Steelstar. It is that the ML5 Heroic Enhancement has no uses and it's junk right now. You don't expect people to really sneak before attacking mobs, do you? And when the effect wears off, what do you expect us to do? Sneak mid-combat to try to use again? You know that once you are hit mid-combat you lose sneak right?

Attacking from sneak? On a rogue? UNPOSSIBLE!

Seriously, I'm ALWAYS sneaking on my rogue. I open every battle from sneak, if at all possible. So a chance to blind (more SA) and guaranteed SA damage regardless of fort on the first attack, so long as it's done from sneak? Sweet. It's a rogue, not a barbarian. If you're charging into battle, you're doing it wrong. And with the stealth changes, it's feasible to sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up. You know, play a rogue like a rogue.

ETA:

Natural 20 vs Vorpal

A natural 20 is a vorpal strike.

[Wizza]

Attacking from sneak? On a rogue? UNPOSSIBLE!

Seriously, I'm ALWAYS sneaking on my rogue. I open every battle from sneak, if at all possible. So a chance to blind (more SA) and guaranteed SA damage regardless of fort on the first attack, so long as it's done from sneak? Sweet. It's a rogue, not a barbarian. If you're charging into battle, you're doing it wrong. And with the stealth changes, it's feasible to sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up. You know, play a rogue like a rogue.

ETA:



A natural 20 is a vorpal strike.

Then you aren't optimizing your rogue. The only reason to sneak on a rogue is to Assassinate or walk past mobs. You think it's possible to "sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up"? Lol please.

Even if that was possible, I have killed that mob and the ones ahead 3x faster than yours, soloing, making this ability trash. And you'd still waste 2 AP to take the previous Core abilities.


About vorpal: yeah I'll edit it out, too much thinking at this time is not good.

[Gwyxxx]

To Sneak or not to sneak? This is the problem.

In her first life my melee was a pure rogue. I did cannot sneak because my boyrfriend used to kill everything with his wizard not giving me the time to sneak. Only with some mini boss i was allowed to sneak and assassinate. And stop.

In her second life my Gwyvern was a barbarian. I hated this class with all my soul. I appreciated the area effect of cleave/great/supreme cleave, but i missed to much picking and disabling trap.
At least my boyf. reincarnated the wizard in a cleric. I liked a lot this.

In her third life i played a multiclass 12 barb/ 6 ranger / 2 rogue. I wanted the second barb past life, and i want proof another build. This was my first TR Elite. And i think that if i had assassinate, i used sneak in this life.
The two party barb\rogue cleric\monk is good enough to finish elite quest, ma not to zerg them. So moster can be killed one by one, at least the biggest ones, and sneak could be usefull.

Anyone has his style of game, but indeed... sneak in mid combat is not the best thing, and a only sneaking rogue needs another warrior that takes the aggro for him. I don't have it, and probably i will never play the pure rogue again.

I'm not on lama, so i don't judge this ability, i can't do it.

Ps. Sorry for bad english, again. (Italian)

[Candela90]

I made the comment on shadar-kai official thread, but Ill copy my enhancements feeling here too:
The short version:

My sugestions:
Change useless enhancements in shadar kai like:
Shadar-Kai Grit - +3 to all saves instead of fort thing + rest how it is.
Student of Pain - 10/15/20 Physical Resistance instead.
Bold - exchange it for more sneak attack or higher dodge cap. Anything. Its useless.
Shadow Smoke - useless right now. It would be better to clickie with 2 min cooldown for stacking +2 assassinate dc for 15 secs or sth.
Ghostly Essense - if it stacks with blur then ok. If not - then make it stack.
Winter Favored - move it to tier 1 or 2. Its not like its THAT better than 1 sneak attack die, Actually its worse:
For sneak attack to work you need only sneak attack.
For Winter Favored you need sneak attack and mob not immune cold.
Nothing is hidden - remove the penalty - I understand elves have penalty. But born rogue shouldnt.

I love jaunt - its a great ability. Can also make as a fvs wings-like move.

But overall - halfling get better dodge and sneak.
Humans get better stats raise and HEAL AMP.

Right now humans and halfling are better for rogue. Especially with human bonus feat and skill points.


Also Spiked Chain Attack is great - but I honestly woudnt use it. It draws too much agro. On a rogue grabbing agro of everything around is bad idea.

[Nascoe]

Then you aren't optimizing your rogue. The only reason to sneak on a rogue is to Assassinate or walk past mobs. You think it's possible to "sneak, attack, hide, sneak/invis, attack again, and keep it up"? Lol please.

Even if that was possible, I have killed that mob and the ones ahead 3x faster than yours, soloing, making this ability trash. And you'd still waste 2 AP to take the previous Core abilities.


About vorpal: yeah I'll edit it out, too much thinking at this time is not good.

Might it be that Turbine actually is working to make it optimal for a rogue to sneak then? The changes to sneak, and this together might make it a valid option again. But I do agree that it should last longer than 6 seconds for things you have to hit buttons to do

[Wizza]

Might it be that Turbine actually is working to make it optimal for a rogue to sneak then? The changes to sneak, and this together might make it a valid option again. But I do agree that it should last longer than 6 seconds for things you have to hit buttons to do

Again, sneaking mid-combat is not optimal. Unless they will allow us to attack WHILE BEING IN SNEAK ALL THE TIME, everything that requires you to sneak in mid-combat is junk.

What you gonna do? Sneak, attack, get away, sneak, attack, get away and repeat to kill a mob? This is useless. It's x3 faster if only the first hit is from sneak and the rest of the same you stand there and attack him normally otherwise you are going to see a ****load of DPS decrease.

[dlsidhe]

Again, sneaking mid-combat is not optimal. Unless they will allow us to attack WHILE BEING IN SNEAK ALL THE TIME, everything that requires you to sneak in mid-combat is junk.

What you gonna do? Sneak, attack, get away, sneak, attack, get away and repeat to kill a mob? This is useless. It's x3 faster if only the first hit is from sneak and the rest of the same you stand there and attack him normally otherwise you are going to see a ****load of DPS decrease.

But it doesn't require you to sneak mid-combat, it just lets you get SA on immune mobs for a moment. If your first attack isn't from sneak on your rogue, you're doing it wrong.

If you're running with a group and playing your rogue smart, then someone has aggro before you attack. You attack from stealth on an undead/redname/high-fort mob. Boom, SA. No problem.

The changes to sneak make it possible that you could re-sneak in combat, or use an invis clicky to shed aggro, and if you're in group and someone grabs aggro when you invis, then you sneak, attack again, get your SA back, rinse, repeat.

It's about thinking outside of the box of present conditions, and adapting to the new ones.

[Wizza]

But it doesn't require you to sneak mid-combat, it just lets you get SA on immune mobs for a moment. If your first attack isn't from sneak on your rogue, you're doing it wrong.

If you're running with a group and playing your rogue smart, then someone has aggro before you attack. You attack from stealth on an undead/redname/high-fort mob. Boom, SA. No problem.

The changes to sneak make it possible that you could re-sneak in combat, or use an invis clicky to shed aggro, and if you're in group and someone grabs aggro when you invis, then you sneak, attack again, get your SA back, rinse, repeat.

It's about thinking outside of the box of present conditions, and adapting to the new ones.

So, that ability lets you get SA on immune mob. How is that even useful? You are taking an ability that you will use once in a lifetime and only once per encounter? Because you know, SA-immune mobs are many.

Thinking outside of the box? Are you even serious? Possible to re-sneak in combat, attack, sneak, attack? Lol. This is NOT good. You shouldn't take a month to kill a SA-Immune mob. Just admit it that this ability just plain suck.

Sneak mid-combat, lol.

[dlsidhe]

So, that ability lets you get SA on immune mob. How is that even useful? You are taking an ability that you will use once in a lifetime and only once per encounter? Because you know, SA-immune mobs are many.

Thinking outside of the box? Are you even serious? Possible to re-sneak in combat, attack, sneak, attack? Lol. This is NOT good. You shouldn't take a month to kill a SA-Immune mob. Just admit it that this ability just plain suck.

Sneak mid-combat, lol.

Are we talking soloing or in a group? Soloing, no, you attack once from stealth, then pound away using bluff every time it comes off timer. The only difference is, under the new mechanics of stealth, you have the option of running away if things go bad and hiding, and the mobs aren't going to develop supersenses and find you immediately.

In a group, using the new stealth mechanics, you pop stealth midcombat to regain your SA bonuses against high-fort mobs (like undead, or raid bosses). You shed aggro, use diplo, etc. It's really not that hard to grasp, unless you're universally opposed to New Things.

Given that, in my opinion, undead are a huge pain on a rogue due to their SA immunity, anything that would let me get SA on undead is not a wasted ability.