The Official Morninglord Iconic Discussion Thread!

[Krelar]

Has anyone actually checked for Int Enhancements in the Morninglord tree btw?
OR
Is it +2 Base Int BUT Dex Enhancements {or even Wis Enhancements}?

The core enhancements have two +1 int selections (number 2 and 4 I believe) no other stat boosts in the racial tree that I can recall.

[Atremus]

So we're going to see a whole lot of Morninglord Wizards then?

Only when they introduce Epic TR so we can get the PL for Epic Completionist. Otherwise, you are just better off with a Human Cleric like always (or what ever your favorite Divine race is)

[Death_Mystic]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Morninglord

Lathander Morninglord was a God of the Realms who now seems to have been melded into Amaunator!

Sun{rise} or Gold Elves are the Realms version of D&D's Grey Elves
Moon or Silver Elves are the Realms version of D&D's High Elves

Missed that when I originally read it. My bad. So re-reading it, it does make sense. Now the only problem I have with it is as being based Cleric, their should (if nothing else) be the multi selector in racial enhancements for Int or WIS. But i have toyed with it a little and actually do not mind the sun elf cleric.

Though as the racial tree goes I think I will spend most AP in cleric trees almost ignoring the racial Cores.

[FranOhmsford]

Missed that when I originally read it. My bad. So re-reading it, it does make sense. Now the only problem I have with it is as being based Cleric, their should (if nothing else) be the multi selector in racial enhancements for Int or WIS. But i have toyed with it a little and actually do not mind the sun elf cleric.

Though as the racial tree goes I think I will spend most AP in cleric trees almost ignoring the racial Cores.

If they just gave us the actual Grey {Sun} Elf Stats - +2 Int/Dex / -2 Con/Str AND the Dex+Int Enhancements to go with them it'd help a lot!

Of course...They'd also have to FIX Drow Enhancements Charisma/Int wise while they're at it!


As for Morninglord:

1. WHY is this Racial at all? A Better choice would be to make it a Cleric Prestige that ANY race could take!

2. Why on EARTH {Or TORIL} did the Devs Choose ELVES as the race for this Iconic?
Not only do they choose a Race without a + to Wisdom {Even though Wisdom is currently the ONLY Stat that CANNOT be boosted in ANY way through Race Choice!} BUT they compound it by using an Elf Subrace that's far more suited to Arcanes!

3. And WHY oh WHY have the Devs NOT added a +2 Wisdom to the Morninglord?
Seriously...
If you're gonna drop the +2 Dex that Elves normally get then why not give the Morninglords a bonus to Wisdom {the Main Stat of a Cleric!} or..as they're TURN Specced - Charisma!
Instead we get the Grey Elf's +2 Int!
This is just plain Ridiculous!


Oh and BTW:
Standard 32 pt Elf Battle Cleric {Not a Full on Caster OR Group dependant Pure Healer BUT a Well Rounded Cleric with NO Fighter or Monk Levels!} would look something like:
Str 13{Maybe 14}
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 17
Cha 14{Maybe 13}

Morninglord:
Str 13
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 17
Cha 14

EXACTLY THE SAME! - All you're doing is Swapping Int and Dex!
Clerics as is {pre Heal/Spellcraft} start with 8 Base Int!

Clerics {unless fully Caster Specced!} are Multi-Attribute Dependant!
We all know the value of Con {and the penalties for keeping it low!}
Charisma CAN be a Cleric's MAIN Stat BUT ONLY If you're willing to lose Spell DCs!
And an above average Str is also a MUST!

Basically Clerics have 2 Weak Stats - Dex and Int {and NOW you're trying your best to make Int a Must have too!}

PLUS - This is gonna do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for Clerics of OTHER Races!
EVERY Cleric NEEDS at least one more Skill Point {possibly 2} and this SHOULD NOT have to come from Int

[Alistina]

The deity weapon is mace. The core enhancements ask me to be a ranged toon.

For some reason (I don't care if its the lore or sheer ignorance), I'm getting +int boost in the race enhancements.

It seems like the racial core enhancements are an accident...a copy paste from the elf tree, but they forgot to edit and put in the right thing.

Why only one deity(forced)? Why mace? Why (forced) ranged core enhancement? And for the love of God, why int?

I made a morninglord, and I was at loss to understand where the devs intended me to go from there. I seriously didn't know what to do with it and I wouldn't actually use this iconic on live for anything unless its just for the heck of it!
And earlier I thought the core enhancements for Sharar Kai were bad lol

But on a serious note, this needs to be put through a major revamp. A complete 100% change in the core enhancements. I might try to look at the entire tree in detail at some point if I can get myself to, I got 'huh'ed' just at levelling my toon to level 5 :P I can't even imagine the rage wave would this have been an open beta

EDIT: Forgot to add one thing that I liked in what I've seen so far. The skin color selector in toon creator. I would love to see similar selectors implemented for all races.

[Miasmark]

This seems to be the most flexible of the iconics, you actually get 2 different offhands, most people will probably take the orb over the shield, but the shield is still there. Makes me wish more options for equipment for the other iconics.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

After rolling up a morning lord, i have to say there's plenty of good, but some bad as well.

elf with +2 int/-2 con, that must take first level cleric. This makes no sense to me. I do enjoy starting with 10 int and having conc+spellcraft, but I'd have much rather seen wis/cha or even the original dex enhancement.

Now, the racial seems pretty good. I have plenty of places to put my points (except the core trees )

The gear is very nice, but i'd have liked to see at least light spell power on the shield as well as the orb, that way it's not such a big difference to someone who wants to play a caster w/ a shield

[bluejadex]

The regen is in the radiant servant enhancements. you have to actually take it instead of it being auto granted with burst

Yeah, I found it when I LR'd my Level 21 Cleric on Lamannia... Should be auto granted imho, but I guess at least it's there??

[BinyaminTsadik]

I don't know why wizard multiclass is the first thing people think of when they hear intelligence, This iconic seems to synergize a lot better with rogue than wizard imo

edit: Too bad you miss out on first level skills however

[UurlockYgmeov]

that is my current understanding. This will probably change once you can TR out of an Iconic... I see no TR / completionist reason (currently) to use iconics.

With that said - That means the Iconics are to give new players a jump start and get them into the game - in Forgotten Realms right away.

So far I like the Iconics in general - and have made and briefly played the bladeforged, the assassin, and now the morninglord.

Mostly they are solidly well designed characters - and the bladeforged instant to 15 is great for noobs (who I really do hope take advantage of the iconics).

I do agree with the poster above who says the racial tree seems to me IMHO byzantine - ok the undead and the racial version of unyielding sovereignty - and the access to AA makes sense of some of the other (But by the time you get access to AA - you don't want it) - but by the time you get done in the radiant servant you have no action points left for anything else. Understandable - but here is the stick - we WANT more healers in the game - not less. Fun is not standing around (for most) healing everyone else having the fun whacking monsters and taking names (I'm looking at all those assassins out there) and having to suck mana pots for those who think con is a dump stat.

With that said - I move on to my biggest concern: gear.

The gear falls short. It strikes me as a hodgepodge lets fit things in. There doesn't seem to be much energy devoted to gear planning.

What I mean is two fold.

1st - the gear is meh. Missing greater false life (ok vitality is on the shield - but most will sub in the staff of fleshshaping (IIRC) - so that and the orb are history. So with that said - AC is only 35 at lv15 (no buffs, no shield). Should be at least 45 by then (GH rule - 50 by 14). and having to choose either the orb or the shield? With the gear switch lag still a concern - who has time (and enough buttons) to switch from sheild to orb to staff in the middle of a nasty boss fight where the tank is lying on the ground in a pool of its own blood?

Nothing in the gear with augment slots for customization. One would think that with the big push to roll out the new augment system one would try to offer one or two pieces of gear that had it.

The gear is interesting because it uses allot of +5 stat items (except +6 wis) - that implies that new players understand to make their character with odd stats instead of even. OK - maybe tell them more about the gear they receive and why....

Feather fall, feather fall, feather fall.... with zero ranks in tumble, no jump skill, it should (and is automatic) for most players to include at least a feather fall clickie..... nough said on that.

No mana pots or mana clickies.... wow.

The heal skill item is a +13 - and no concentration and spellcraft (IIRC)

The blue/green/red bags? the level 1 freebies. Kindly at least start them with the bags available through the House P vendor.

Starting plat and or jump potions. Also spell components (diamonds) for death pact - lKinda basic.

2nd - the gear has the enchantments all wacky - so if you get a piece of choice gear it upsets the zen stasis / balance of the gear and so switching in new gear is extremely tricky unless you are a Bulgarian Circus Highwire contortionist acrobat.... What is the benefit of getting awesome gear if you have two switch more than 3 items around to fit it in? Hence the augment slots and etc.

So as much as I like the iconics, I also see their issues. Please take a little time and see how the best clerics already are doing it and take notes. See what the 85% is using for gear and what most healers will strive for (ok and battle clerics)

Finally - for a class devoted to sun and undead destruction - no Disruption? No greater Disruption mace? Ghost Touch Flametouched Iron Heavy Mace of Disruption???? (Or silver)

[UurlockYgmeov]

one other point (PS) -

For a character that is in the Forgotten Realms - Word of Recall should be changed. However, love it - since can just bind to estar and word of recall back to Eberron to get real sized blue/red/green bags, coin lord favor, house k favor, silver flame favor, house p favor, and house d favor (for the missing quiver)

[chance2000]

So far I like it. Mine is very survivable so far.

[Leclaire1]

While the Int bonus may seem pointless for a divine character, it's still better than the Dex bonus that normal elves get since it does serve a purpose for any casting class. Specifically, an Int bonus gives you both a +1 Spellcraft and an extra skill point per level (much needed now that Heal and Spellcraft are skills that are now directly linked to divine DPS).

Overall, I'd say the Morninglord looks fine. The Con penalty hurts as it always does with Elves (this game should seriously consider getting rid of racial ability penalties entirely), but the fact that the enhancements actually include spellpower buffs for divines makes these some of the only racial enhancements I'd ever consider taking on a divine. It also synergizes nicely with the Divine Disciple tree - you can get a wider variety of light spells and SLAs than anything else in the game currently. If nothing else, it lets anybody whip up a relatively high level healbot/light nuker without too much difficulty - anything that makes it easier for people to have a healer they can hop onto is a good thing.

I agree with this completely. My frustration with most of the criticism here is that it is extremely shortsighted. Its tended to focus entirely on the stat bonus and penalty with almost no focus on the enhancement tree, which is about 90% of the distinctives an iconic has. I did initially react the same way to the sun elf option, which I knew meant an int bonus, but that int is actually critical with the changes to spellpower, and elves can still have as much wisdom as anyone else. The Con penalty of 2 really isnt that big of a deal if you build and gear in an intelligent way going forward. The enhancements are very nice, however, and really do suit an offensive nuker cleric, esp since they keep Arcanum for instakilling stuff. I've played a lot of healers and have played offensive divines, and I'd gladly play one of these. Well done.

[decease]

I agree with this completely. My frustration with most of the criticism here is that it is extremely shortsighted. Its tended to focus entirely on the stat bonus and penalty with almost no focus on the enhancement tree, which is about 90% of the distinctives an iconic has. I did initially react the same way to the sun elf option, which I knew meant an int bonus, but that int is actually critical with the changes to spellpower, and elves can still have as much wisdom as anyone else. The Con penalty of 2 really isnt that big of a deal if you build and gear in an intelligent way going forward. The enhancements are very nice, however, and really do suit an offensive nuker cleric, esp since they keep Arcanum for instakilling stuff. I've played a lot of healers and have played offensive divines, and I'd gladly play one of these. Well done.

then i assume you have seen what we haven't seen?

core ability are int and range attack. end tier enhancement mostly targeting at range as well. yea.. elf have as much wisdom as anyone else.. but how will anything on the tree benifit cleric? cleric are not fvs.. light spell power are good, but not that good.. dex to mace attack mod and damage? hmmm not that good as well.. if you are melee you will go for strength for cleave series, if you are not likely you will be wearing heavy armor which will caped your dex, therefor strength sill benifit you more over dex. if you splash monk..then none of the mace are count as ki weapon.. you will be uncentered anywayz..

p.s. if 30 light spell power make this decent offensive nuker cleric.. then perhaps you should go fly a kite.. oh also.. have you even look at the morninglord tree? they can use dex bonus to all maces.. for both damage and attack. i would perfer to have traditional dex over int..

[UurlockYgmeov]

wouldn't it be fairly simple to adjust the race enhancement tree for morninglord to be 'deity's favored weapon OR ranged? Must select / choose.

[PaddyMaxson]

I can think of a reason for the int: Skills are slightly more important to casters now.

[hirmor]

Seeing some nice potential here... Plus they look so much better than those ugly animated pile of junk some called Warforged! Lol

[XodousRoC]

I tried, just for kicks, to make a Morninglord with Racial AA...and while I was able to dump my enhancement points into the Racial AA tree, I was unable to actually utilize anything from the tree except the magically summoned arrows. Oh, the corrosive arrows or force arrows would take sp and appear functional on my quickbar when clicked, but no icon on the top of the screen indicated that it had been activated, and more importantly, I wasn't procing the selected acid or force to the arrows I was firing upon impact. It seems to me that there are waaay too many dumps in the racial trees for enhancement points, which could further limit enhancements spent in class trees and frustrate new players more than the old system. Perhaps less dumps and a more easily attainable class-beneficial racial enhancement system would be more intuitive and well received by players (both new and vets).

[samthedagger]

Overall, I like the Morninglord, but I have to make a few comments.

1) Lore: Sun elves favor the goddess Sehanine Moonbow and traditionally throughout at least the first three editions of D&D have favored the wizard/magic-user class. Now I get the whole association between the fact that they are called "sun" elves and Amaunator is a sun god. But aside from an abstract naming convention, there has never been a proclivity for sun elves in the Forgotten Realms to worship Amaunator. Setting that aside...

2) Racial stats: Throughout all editions of D&D (with the possible exception of 4th since I don't know much about it), sun elves have received a racial bonus to Intelligence. This is keeping with FR canon. Ignoring point #1, I don't mind it much. And the -2 Con is not really a deal-breaker as much as it used to be (an extra 28 hp at cap isn't going to mean very much given the current direction of the game). Given the fact that clerics are given terrible skill points per level (base 2 + Int modifier) and the fact that we have some awesome new changes to skills (e.g. Heal adding to Positive and Negative spell power and Spellcraft adding to a wide variety of spell power, including Force, which clerics love) means clerics are going to be wanting to invest a little more in Intelligence, this is actually not a bad fit for a cleric. Don't get me wrong, I love clerics and would love to have a race with a bonus to Wisdom. It is my favorite class in DDO. But a bonus to Int is not a complete waste. It makes it relatively easy to get a 16 Int which allows you: Concentration, Heal, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, and one other of your choice (possibly Diplomacy for the ever-increasing opportunities to use skill checks and reduce aggro; perhaps Balance, because a tripped cleric isn't healing or damaging anything; maybe Jump because it is frustrating to try to jump around with heavy armor and a tower shield which, post U-14, is now actually useful for the PRR it grants; or whatever else, choose your poison).

3) Racial Enhancements: Here we have a strange bastardization of traditional elves (moon elves in FR) and sun elves. Quite frankly, the racial enhancement line is all over the place. We have a] bonus to Int (which is kind of terrible unless you are gonna splash cleric into a wizard build, which is a little bizarre), b] bonus to Dex, which I suppose isn't bad if you want to go the clonkcher route (Arcane Archer isn't bad to have here in that event), c] Dex used for attack and damage with bludgeoning weapons, which is really only useful if you plan to splash fighter, but it seems like a seriously poor choice to go with, d] core enhancements that seem focused on ranged DPS and Int (huh???) and e] Spell Penetration and bonus spell points (not bad, but given all the other blends it is one of the few things that synergizes with a cleric). That said, there are some pretty great enhancements which go well with Divine Disciple. As at least one other poster has mentioned, if you want to make a light-DPS caster, this is quite an attractive option. On the one hand, I can see the potential for a lot of different builds here: clonks, clonkchers, cleric arcane archers (sun elves still get proficiency with bows even though the Morninglord can't take the Silver Flame deity, which is not that big of a loss since you are really only losing +1 to hit unless you want to spend one of your precious few feats), battle clerics, and pure light-damage/healing clerics. I've tried at least three different Morninglord builds on Lamannia so far and they all seem okay, but I am not really seeing a lot of synergy that is better or even comparable with anything except the light-caster.

4) Appearance: Perhaps strangely enough, this is the part of the iconic that I detest the most. Aside from the iconic armor kit (which is really freakin' awesome-looking), the character looks like a regular old elf with golden eyes. They don't need to sparkle like emo Twilight vampires, but they need SOMETHING more than a different eye color and an armor kit to help them stand out. Look at the Bladeforged; it's obviously not your average warforged. One glance and you know exactly what race it is. Check out the broad-shouldered, heavily-built and totally ripped Purple Dragon Knight. No mistaking that guy for your average human. Take a gander at the Shadar-Kai. Piercings and tattoos and a subtle but unmistakable lithe build which clearly separates it from any other race. The Morninglord? Just looks like another elf, especially if you don't want to use the armor kit. So please give us something: glowing hair, a halo around their head, a bold flash coming from their eyes, just... something. I don't even care if it is totally canon. There needs to be a better way to differentiate a Morninglord from the standard elf aside from golden eyes, which is probably the last thing anyone else is going to see on your toon.

5) Unique racial traits: The Bladeforged get a special aura that enhances their paladin aura and gives them PRR every time they are hit. Why doesn't the Morninglord get something like this which is tied to their intended class? For that matter, why don't the Shadar-kai and Purple Dragon Knight get something like this as well? Some bonus feat granted automatically that isn't tied to the racial enhancements and just screams "play me as a cleric!" would be a nice feature. An innate bonus to turn undead might be nice (perhaps they get Improved Turning for free; normally a waste of a feat but I wouldn't mind having it for free as a racial feature). Add a bonus automatic feat at level 6 like the cleric and paladin now receive. Call it Sun's Glory and give them a radiant boost clickie that grants +1d6 light damage to all spell, melee and ranged attacks for 30 seconds minute with a 2 minute cooldown. Something like this would at least offer some kind of incentive for people to buy the iconic in order to have a cool cleric with some nice default abilities.

I think that pretty much covers all the bases. I am looking forward to rolling up a Morninglord when this pack goes live, if for no other reason than to have another healer for raids whenever needed that won't take long to level up. (I can level up another human cleric to 25 in about 2 weeks, but starting at level 15 cuts about a week of time out of it for me; and it's not like clerics NEED past lives). You've got some good ideas here, Turbine, but the Morninglord needs some tweaking before it goes live. Otherwise you might end up seeing a bunch of Clr1/Wiz19 Morninglords out there all of the sudden, which I am pretty sure is counter-intuitive to what you intend the iconic to be. We are already seeing quite a few Bladeforged Pal2/Sor18 builds out there because there just weren't enough bennies to start with (although the Bladeforged's new racial enhancement line on Lamannia is much better than the Morninglord's).

[HuneyMunster]

I don't know why wizard multiclass is the first thing people think of when they hear intelligence, This iconic seems to synergize a lot better with rogue than wizard imo

edit: Too bad you miss out on first level skills however

I also gave this some thought for an assasin, but along with the loss of first level skills you also lose Deadly Shadows that gives you the +2 int and 4d6 SA to bring the int mod to same level. Also pure Helf with arti dil gets +2 int from enhancements like the morninglord as well as extra umd and Arti caster levels for scrolls.