Double the PRR value on armor

[Teh_Troll]

When the defense pass hit us last year the armor you wore actually mattered. Heavier armor meant more PRR and served a purpose.

Now? Between planar focus, blue augments, and soon-to-be every kensai having Earth-stance 4 and 50 PRR from low-hanging Shintao fruit the type of armor you wear is pretty irrelevant.

Isn't this what was complained about by the devs regarding the old AC system? That your armor didn't actually matter and it was all the stacking non-armor bonuses that broke the system?

We're now at that state in the game with PRR. Congrats devs you just broke your own system by having history repeat itself!

You're armor should matter more than it does. Make it so.

[ForumAccess]

Congrats devs you just broke your own system by having history repeat itself!

Not only that, but EE GH to-hit values are now high enough that most people's AC value is less than the roughly half of enemy to-hit needed to make it so that the defensive bonus that they receive from AC is 0. So right now we are back in a position where your AC gives you absolutely no benefit at all. The exact thing they said that they were creating this new system, less than a year ago, in order to avoid.

[Teh_Troll]

Not only that, but EE GH to-hit values are now high enough that most people's AC value is less than the roughly half of enemy to-hit needed to make it so that the defensive bonus that they receive from AC is 0. So right now we are back in a position where your AC gives you absolutely no benefit at all. The exact thing they said that they were creating this new system, less than a year ago, in order to avoid.

That's a different issue but since you bring it up it is downright stupid that AC is the least important aspect of the layered defense in EE.

AC is really the only thing a defender build can get that's noticeably higher than an offensive build. On live a defender can get 45-50% damage mitigation from PRR wherease an offensive toon can get 30-40% . . . what a defrender gets is pretty insignificant. The added AC effectively gives nothing. On lamania the offensive builds can get the same PRR . . . beyond broken but it is what it is.

Your actual AC should matter more . . . that's a topic for another conversation.

[redspecter23]

Not only that, but EE GH to-hit values are now high enough that most people's AC value is less than the roughly half of enemy to-hit needed to make it so that the defensive bonus that they receive from AC is 0. So right now we are back in a position where your AC gives you absolutely no benefit at all. The exact thing they said that they were creating this new system, less than a year ago, in order to avoid.

From the dev point of view, there were two things that they were trying to accomplish with the AC pass (or so we were told).

First, we were told that this was an effort to make AC meaningful in high end content where it was not before. To be fair, we are probably being hit slightly less than the 95% that we were before when we invest a reasonable amount in AC, but it could just be that 100 AC nets us a 6% avoidance rate. Only slightly higher than the 5% we had before with zero effort.

Second, we were told that the devs do not approve of 95% avoidance rates in melee even if it's only heroic content and even if you're 28 levels higher than the content you're playing on casual. This I believe is what they actually intended to accomplish. We no longer have 95% avoidance AC, even in heroic content like we did before.

We were told that there were two goals in mind. One positive, one negative. We got the negative. The positive benefit of the new system, partial avoidance in the highest tier content with moderate to high AC investment was a bait and switch. Even if we could get up to the hypothetical 75% AC benefit, the EE mobs still hit for about 10x as much as epic hard mobs, meaning every hit they score is at a level so far beyond the next hardest difficulty that it might only take a few hits to kill a player in EE. In EH with the same defenses, you could possibly stand toe to toe with 10 mobs and live a few minutes or even infinitely with enough defensive investment. You simply cannot do this in EE.

[redspecter23]

That's a different issue but since you bring it up it is downright stupid that AC is the least important aspect of the layered defense in EE.

AC is really the only thing a defender build can get that's noticeably higher than an offensive build. On live a defender can get 45-50% damage mitigation from PRR wherease an offensive toon can get 30-40% . . . what a defrender gets is pretty insignificant. The added AC effectively gives nothing. On lamania the offensive builds can get the same PRR . . . beyond broken but it is what it is.

Your actual AC should matter more . . . that's a topic for another conversation.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. A defensive character just can't get a whole lot more defensive than an offensive character. They give up a massive amount of offense, for a minimal defensive benefit. Add in the fact that tanks just don't have a place in content currently along with defensive nerfs with the enhancement pass that are mind boggling and you have what appears to be a massive disconnect between how the game is played and how the devs are handling defense as a whole.

Currently, you give up offense for defense, which in theory is fair, but your returns are so small and the effect of those returns so unnecessary that it's just not viable.

Now if there were some content where tanks were useful besides a handful of out of date quests with no meaningful reward, we could realistically start to discuss the merits of defense vs. offense. Without a role, it's difficult to determine what a tank should actually be able to do.

[Teh_Troll]

From the dev point of view, there were two things that they were trying to accomplish with the AC pass (or so we were told).

First, we were told that this was an effort to make AC meaningful in high end content where it was not before. To be fair, we are probably being hit slightly less than the 95% that we were before when we invest a reasonable amount in AC, but it could just be that 100 AC nets us a 6% avoidance rate. Only slightly higher than the 5% we had before with zero effort.

Second, we were told that the devs do not approve of 95% avoidance rates in melee even if it's only heroic content and even if you're 28 levels higher than the content you're playing on casual. This I believe is what they actually intended to accomplish. We no longer have 95% avoidance AC, even in heroic content like we did before.

We were told that there were two goals in mind. One positive, one negative. We got the negative. The positive benefit of the new system, partial avoidance in the highest tier content with moderate to high AC investment was a bait and switch. Even if we could get up to the hypothetical 75% AC benefit, the EE mobs still hit for about 10x as much as epic hard mobs, meaning every hit they score is at a level so far beyond the next hardest difficulty that it might only take a few hits to kill a player in EE. In EH with the same defenses, you could possibly stand toe to toe with 10 mobs and live a few minutes or even infinitely with enough defensive investment. You simply cannot do this in EE.

So true . . . we no longer get the benefit of having melees who 1-19 could almost never get hit. I'd argue - with all this BYOH nonsense that screw new players etc . . . is that AC should have been made so melees get hit LESS in heroic and not more. If plate armor actual meant something bob the fighter right off of Korthos might be able to survive Dirks Secret.

Seriously . . . did it really matter if in heroic I could drink 10 CSW pots in a quest and now have to drink 20?

In the defense of this new system (pun intended) AC DOES work in EH/EH and at 145-150 on my evasion stalwart I will see more misses than my 60 AC ranger or rogue but it's not enough to be worth the bother of equipping a shield and turning on Combat Expertise. The to-hits in EE are too damned high!

But that's off topic . . . Torc whined about your armor not mattering in the "AC wars" as the "other stuff" was more important. he was absolutely right . . . particularly the stack dodge bonuses.

- making better armor was a GOOD thing.
- Divorcing Dodge from AC was a good thing
- the new formula . .. is good in theory but was utterly pointless as the divorcing of dodge from AC made the high AC-numbers all but impossible. Then they give the mobs in EE about +160 to-hit and we're looking at a system just as dumb as we had before in old epics.

But what I'm talking about is Turbine is making THE SAME MISTAKE OVER AGAIN WITH PRR THAT THEY DID WITH AC. Your armor almost doesn't matter, the other "stuff" is better.

[Teh_Troll]

Currently, you give up offense for defense, which in theory is fair, but your returns are so small and the effect of those returns so unnecessary that it's just not viable.

Yup. Get to about 30% damage mitigation with 10% incorporeal, some dodge, and a displacement clickie and *** do you need a tank for? Except for EE LOB and I like having one in EE CITW . . . also stuff that doesn't pay to run anymore ever.

But this is a topic for another conversation . . . I want your ARMOR to give more PRR than it does in this subject.

[redspecter23]

Yup. Get to about 30% damage mitigation with 10% incorporeal, some dodge, and a displacement clickie and *** do you need a tank for? Except for EE LOB and I like having one in EE CITW . . . also stuff that doesn't pay to run anymore ever.

But this is a topic for another conversation . . . I want your ARMOR to give more PRR than it does in this subject.

Fair enough, but how much more PRR do we need? As mentioned, even non tanks are getting to 30% absorption quite easily right now. What's another 5%? They already opened the can of worms when they introduced so many other sources of stacking PRR. I'm not against doubling or even tripling the PRR added by armor, but the gains from that are minimal in a static system of defense like PRR. You eventually get to the sweetspot where the diminishing returns aren't worth the effort. Adding yet more PRR only serves to get all the non tanks up to that point even easier than they do now.

I think it may be more useful at adjusting the curve for tanks perhaps. Say the sweetspot is 60% absorption currently for arguments sake. Instead of just adding more PRR for tanks that ends up giving diminishing returns compared to what non tanks would receive, add a flat % bonus to tanks. So that 60% might bump right up to 80% with a flat 20% increase from a defensive stance. The mistake right now is in adding even more PRR to tanks that just don't get much out of it. A defensive stance that adds +50 PRR but in effect only gives an extra 3% absorption is a huge price to pay for such small gains. Having a flat bonus added onto the % PRR gives tanks the edge they need without getting every other class up to the sweetspot even easier than they already can.

[Teh_Troll]

Fair enough, but how much more PRR do we need? As mentioned, even non tanks are getting to 30% absorption quite easily right now. What's another 5%? They already opened the can of worms when they introduced so many other sources of stacking PRR. I'm not against doubling or even tripling the PRR added by armor, but the gains from that are minimal in a static system of defense like PRR. You eventually get to the sweetspot where the diminishing returns aren't worth the effort. Adding yet more PRR only serves to get all the non tanks up to that point even easier than they do now.

I think it may be more useful at adjusting the curve for tanks perhaps. Say the sweetspot is 60% absorption currently for arguments sake. Instead of just adding more PRR for tanks that ends up giving diminishing returns compared to what non tanks would receive, add a flat % bonus to tanks. So that 60% might bump right up to 80% with a flat 20% increase from a defensive stance. The mistake right now is in adding even more PRR to tanks that just don't get much out of it. A defensive stance that adds +50 PRR but in effect only gives an extra 3% absorption is a huge price to pay for such small gains. Having a flat bonus added onto the % PRR gives tanks the edge they need without getting every other class up to the sweetspot even easier than they already can.

Light armor on a 25 is about 12-14 points of PRR . . . doubling it won't break anything.

I think on a Tempest-ranger (who can get the most in light armor) it's . . .

12 Armor
10 Tempest III
5 TWD
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

56 PRR

28 % damage mitigation

If the armor bonus was doubleed . . . .

24 Armor
10 Tempest III
5 TWD
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot
68

32 % Damage mitigation . . .

Not that much of a difference. With heavy armor . . .

25 Armor
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

54 PRR

27 % Damage mitigation

Double the heavy armor bonus and it's


50 Armor
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

79 PRR

36 % Damage mitigation

Compare this to the insanely-broken splash options with Kensai in the expansion . . .

15 Earth Stance 4
50 Defensive strikes
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

94 PRR

40 % Damage mitigation in addition to MAX dodge and 25% incorporeal as well as more HP and DPS.

Even with my idea HEAVY ARMOR IS STILL INFERIOR. It'll just be less inferior.

[Raoull]

With heavy armor . . .

25 Armor
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

54 PRR

27 % Damage mitigation

Double the heavy armor bonus and it's


50 Armor
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

79 PRR

36 % Damage mitigation

Compare this to the insanely-broken splash options with Kensai in the expansion . . .

15 Earth Stance 4
50 Defensive strikes
15 Planar Focus
14 Blue slot

94 PRR

40 % Damage mitigation in addition to MAX dodge and 25% incorporeal as well as more HP and DPS.

Even with my idea HEAVY ARMOR IS STILL INFERIOR. It'll just be less inferior.

For one, heavy armor is worth a tad more than you give it (up to 30 currently, BAB+5). That 30 is exactly the same as a GMOF Earth stance monk with Standing with Stone. But considering standing with stone is a tier4 ability, that doesn't seem that out of hand.

A S&B tank has substantially more PRR. For an offensive fighter, easy PRR is 28 (need spells to get 25 bab) + 14, or 42. For a S&B tank is 82 just from the Defender Pre. Two shield mastery feats and the Sentinel Tier 2 ability, give 30 more for 112. 112 is WAY higher than most "offensive" fighters, and way higher than any pajamas wearer.


I think there are two real problems.

1) In EE, AC is useless. Which is why I only mentioned PRR.....
2) For insane reasons, they hate S&B in the enhancement pass. I have to assume that the Defender PRES do not get nerfed as hard as they currently are on Lam. If they get nerfed like now, well, S&B will basically not exist, in the same way a Cleric10/Wizard10 "Necromancer" doesn't really exist.... The "Defensive Strikes" ability is similarly out of whack, and I hope it gets toned down. Nothing grants 50 PRR in one swipe currently, and nothing should.


But ignoring AC, and ignoring Lam.... this isn't really a problem. Heavy armor is the single highest source of PRR. (Perhaps S&B Defenders, although technically that is 2 20 points bonuses.)

I don't think doubling armor PRR is at all a good idea, and rather would see them tone down EE tohits and fix Lam.