Bladeforged Tempest Pal 2/Rng 18?

[GlassJaw]

Is this even worth it? I've wanted to try a WF Tempest Ranger for a while now but never got around to it. Bladeforged would let me try a Tempest Ranger quickly, and I figure it's a decent way to get around the -2 Dex penalty and still get TWF.

Not sure if there is much synergy there otherwise though. Thoughts?

[Grailhawk]

Its not worth it. Its a worse combination then a Bladeforged Paladin.

Reason:
- Healing Penalty and no Repair spells to even try and make up for it
- Two Pld is a poor splash on a Ranger. Charisma is a dump stat.

Honestly Warforged Ranger is bad its the worst race you could build a Ranger on. Rangers scarifies some damage compared to fighters for there spell list that boils down to 4 spells Rams Might, Barkskin, Freedom of Movement, and Cure Serious Wounds. Through Devotion and Healing Amp (why Human and Half Elf are the best races for Rangers) a Ranger makes a low powered cure worth wiled if you're not doing this your better off on a fighter taking all the melee and ranged feat.

[unbongwah]

- Two Pld is a poor splash on a Ranger. Charisma is a dump stat.

EEs have brought pally splashes for Divine Grace back in style; Batman isn't dead, he's just been reborn!

I agree that self-healing on a BF rgr is bad. That said, BF are getting Reconstruct as a racial SLA; once that happens, a BF Tempest may be worth revisiting, esp. if you find a way to squeeze in some Repair enhs. Though what I'm looking forward to is BF FvS w/Reconstruct.

[Grailhawk]

EEs have brought pally splashes for Divine Grace back in style; Batman isn't dead, he's just been reborn!

Juggernaut Bladeforge is a fine build and much better then a Ranger for that race, and would probably play just like what the OP is looking for. On a Ranger twisting Lithe, Unearthly Reactions, and Brace for Impact nets you +14 to reflex save that's going to be much more useful/flexible then a 2 Paladin splash.

I agree that self-healing on a BF rgr is bad. That said, BF are getting Reconstruct as a racial SLA; once that happens, a BF Tempest may be worth revisiting, esp. if you find a way to squeeze in some Repair enhs. Though what I'm looking forward to is BF FvS w/Reconstruct.

Fair point but if they get reconstruction some kind of Fighter/monk/pld splash taking both TWF and Archery feat will probably come out better then a Ranger. Oddly enough that's very similar to a Juggernaut.

[Soulfurnace]

Uh... How is twisting Lithe, Unearthly Reactions and Brace for Impact MORE flexible than /2 paladin?
3 twists for 14 reflex, +2 to other saves. Total of 18 saves.
Other option: Start with 12 charisma, +3 tome, +7 slot, there's +6 to all saves: That adds up to 18 saves. The same as those 3 twists. (Albeit spread out, versus focussed on reflex) AND you get to spent 3x twist slots on other stuff. Like... um. Stuff!

[Fedora1]

Its not worth it. Its a worse combination then a Bladeforged Paladin. .

I kind of have to agree. I rolled up like 4 bladeforged toons just to try different stuff. On one I made a deep ranger splash for the free TWF and bow feats (level 6 tempest). It's really put the hurt on self healing. Granted I still have LOH, and I'm going to stick it out for now just because I'm stubborn like that, but it's not my best build for sure. I also rolled one with a fighter (2) splash, a pure pally, and plan on trying unbongwah's idea with a fighter and wizard splash (1 each). So far the pure pally and fighter splash look better than the deep ranger splash, although many shot + bow str are nice.

[Grailhawk]

Uh... How is twisting Lithe, Unearthly Reactions and Brace for Impact MORE flexible than /2 paladin?
3 twists for 14 reflex, +2 to other saves. Total of 18 saves.
Other option: Start with 12 charisma, +3 tome, +7 slot, there's +6 to all saves: That adds up to 18 saves. The same as those 3 twists. (Albeit spread out, versus focussed on reflex) AND you get to spent 3x twist slots on other stuff. Like... um. Stuff!

You can change your twists easily to what the quest calls for. If you splash 2 class levels you can not easily change them hence its more flexible.

Spells like FOM, DW, etc. make Reflex more valuable then other save.

[Grailhawk]

I kind of have to agree. I rolled up like 4 bladeforged toons just to try different stuff. On one I made a deep ranger splash for the free TWF and bow feats (level 6 tempest). It's really put the hurt on self healing. Granted I still have LOH, and I'm going to stick it out for now just because I'm stubborn like that, but it's not my best build for sure. I also rolled one with a fighter (2) splash, a pure pally, and plan on trying unbongwah's idea with a fighter and wizard splash (1 each). So far the pure pally and fighter splash look better than the deep ranger splash, although many shot + bow str are nice.

Yes Rangers and Paladins don't mix well in general there strengths tend to play against each other. Both are good at self healing but by mixing the classes you water down the self-healing and gain very little in its place. I don't believe the game supports an archer Paladin at this time.

[Veles]

Yes Rangers and Paladins don't mix well in general there strengths tend to play against each other. Both are good at self healing but by mixing the classes you water down the self-healing and gain very little in its place. I don't believe the game supports an archer Paladin at this time.

While fighter or monk or rogue might be more popular splashes for feats, umd or evasion, 2 pally for 10 -12 saves might not be the worst splash ever if you don't need extra feat ( and you already have evasion, and csw is capped at caster level 15 ) and have saves in mid forties already.

[Teh_Troll]

Spells like FOM, DW, etc. make Reflex more valuable then other save.

I'm kinda of this mind to . . . on my ranger I can get a reflex save that's great . . . but the other in EE might as well be dumped.

What kinda FORT/WILL saves we looking at?

Still think WF is a terrible race for anything that is healed by divine magic though.

[Teh_Troll]

While fighter or monk or rogue might be more popular splashes for feats, umd or evasion, 2 pally for 10 -12 saves might not be the worst splash ever if you don't need extra feat ( and you already have evasion, and csw is capped at caster level 15 ) and have saves in mid forties already.

LOLz . . . is true. All pally is good for is as a 2-splash.

[Grailhawk]

I'm kinda of this mind to . . . on my ranger I can get a reflex save that's great . . . but the other in EE might as well be dumped.

What kinda FORT/WILL saves we looking at?

Still think WF is a terrible race for anything that is healed by divine magic though.

I say using twist to up saves (specifically reflex) by 14 is a better (more flexible) way to boost your saves then splashing 2 Paladin. Numbers were +14 Reflex +2 Will and Fort from 3 twists vs +6 All saves from a 22 char (though this could be better I don't think you can get the 38 you would need to match the 14 on a Ranger).

[Grailhawk]

While fighter or monk or rogue might be more popular splashes for feats, umd or evasion, 2 pally for 10 -12 saves might not be the worst splash ever if you don't need extra feat ( and you already have evasion, and csw is capped at caster level 15 ) and have saves in mid forties already.

2 Paladin 15+ ranger is sub optimal but it will work.

I was referring to the 6 Ranger x Paladin build and that in general its not a good mix especially as you go deeper. 6 ranger is going to water down the paladin leaving leaving it with only one 4th level spell slot costing either Zeal or CSW. Neither of which the 6 Ranger levels really makes up for and unfortunately 6 Fighter wont get you enough feat for both melee and Archery lines and probably doesn't make up for Zeal either but has a better chance then Ranger does.

[unbongwah]

I did some experimenting on Lami this weekend with BF rgrs (among other build ideas). A few comments:

• They've gotten rid of the Dodge/Mobility/SA pre-reqs for Tempests; so it is quite possible to come up with a Tempest w/DEX 6. Of course, Reflex saves become an issue if you dump DEX, so good thing that you'd have Divine Grace!
• The Dodge bonuses in the Tempest tree are too expensive, IMHO. 4 APs for +1% Dodge? [And a few other bonuses no one will care about, like +1 saves vs traps.] Unless their cost is cut by at least half, I can't see it being worth the bother.
• Tempest III isn't getting buffed, unfortunately. If anything, it's been slightly nerfed (again), because the current PRR bonuses from Tempest become a separate thing you can spend APs on. So it looks like Tempest II will continue to be the "sweet spot" for MCed rgrs. [Pure Tempests finally get a nice DPS capstone, but that's obviously not relevant to BF.]
• Speaking of PRR, I'm wondering if it's worth taking Mithril Body+TWD+the aforementioned PRR enhs. That gets you 25 PRR by lvl 20, but you have to deal with the MDB cap on Mithril Body, which AFAICT isn't fixed yet on Lami. Maybe skip MB but take TWD?
• The Repair skill boosts Repair Spellpower, so it makes sense to add it if you can to boost Reconstruct SLA. Good thing rgr gives you all those skill pts to squander!

So I'm thinking along the lines of rgr 12 / pal 6 / <splash> 2, just haven't decided what the best splash might be: monk or ftr for extra feats; wiz for free meta & Repair skill; arty for Repair & UMD skills?

[Grailhawk]

I did some experimenting on Lami this weekend with BF rgrs (among other build ideas). A few comments:

• They've gotten rid of the Dodge/Mobility/SA pre-reqs for Tempests; so it is quite possible to come up with a Tempest w/DEX 6. Of course, Reflex saves become an issue if you dump DEX, so good thing that you'd have Divine Grace!
• The Dodge bonuses in the Tempest tree are too expensive, IMHO. 4 APs for +1% Dodge? [And a few other bonuses no one will care about, like +1 saves vs traps.] Unless their cost is cut by at least half, I can't see it being worth the bother.
• Tempest III isn't getting buffed, unfortunately. If anything, it's been slightly nerfed (again), because the current PRR bonuses from Tempest become a separate thing you can spend APs on. So it looks like Tempest II will continue to be the "sweet spot" for MCed rgrs. [Pure Tempests finally get a nice DPS capstone, but that's obviously not relevant to BF.]
• Speaking of PRR, I'm wondering if it's worth taking Mithril Body+TWD+the aforementioned PRR enhs. That gets you 25 PRR by lvl 20, but you have to deal with the MDB cap on Mithril Body, which AFAICT isn't fixed yet on Lami. Maybe skip MB but take TWD?
• The Repair skill boosts Repair Spellpower, so it makes sense to add it if you can to boost Reconstruct SLA. Good thing rgr gives you all those skill pts to squander!

So I'm thinking along the lines of rgr 12 / pal 6 / <splash> 2, just haven't decided what the best splash might be: monk or ftr for extra feats; wiz for free meta & Repair skill; arty for Repair & UMD skills?

Assuming you haven't jumped the gun on the reconstruction thing. Why 6 Paladin? 2 Paladin seams to give you every thing you want Divine Grace and Divine Might don't really need more and can get more from having a More Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Or Artie.

What am I missing?

[unbongwah]

Assuming you haven't jumped the gun on the reconstruction thing. Why 6 Paladin? 2 Paladin seams to give you every thing you want Divine Grace and Divine Might don't really need more and can get more from having a More Ranger, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Or Artie.

Pally 6 still gets Divine Favor (+2 to-hit/dmg) and first-tier PrE enhs; whereas going to, say, rgr 15 gets you an extra FE and lvl 4 spells (FoM being the only one I might want, since I'd be counting on Reconstruct). But I'm still trying to figure out how best to exploit the new Enhancements. The biggest limitation will probably turn out to be APs; 80 feels so stingy!

[Veles]

What is the caster level of recon SLA, do bladeforged get any repair enhancements and what max repair spell power is possible ?
In other words, how strong is recon sla on kinda geared toon ?

[Grailhawk]

Pally 6 still gets Divine Favor (+2 to-hit/dmg) and first-tier PrE enhs; whereas going to, say, rgr 15 gets you an extra FE and lvl 4 spells (FoM being the only one I might want, since I'd be counting on Reconstruct). But I'm still trying to figure out how best to exploit the new Enhancements. The biggest limitation will probably turn out to be APs; 80 feels so stingy!

6 fighter will get you 4 bonus feat 2 of which can go to weapon focus and specialization that will come out better then divine favor as a passive. 6 Rogue would get you a lot of sneak attack actually with a bit out of DS you might get to 10d6 maybe more sneak attack. Have to say of the 12/6/2 builds 6 Paladin probably is one of the weaker.

[unbongwah]

What is the caster level of recon SLA, do bladeforged get any repair enhancements and what max repair spell power is possible ?
In other words, how strong is recon sla on kinda geared toon ?

AFAIK, Recon SLA is based on char lvl; BF can take Repair amp from racial tree (max +20%). I made a BF pal 14 / wiz 1 on Lami w/Quicken, max Repair skill (18 ranks + 13 starter item + whatever my INT mod was), max racial repair amp, and just the base gear (which includes +10% repair amp and Repair Spellpower, IIRC); my Recon SLA was hitting ~350 HPs.

The problem is there's no easy way to add Repair Spellpower thru enhs that I can see. On live, I have a BF pally w/wiz splash for Quicken+Repair I enh (+40 Spellpower); on Lami, I don't see a way to add the same amount of Spellpower so cheaply.