Spellpower = skills - something here doesn't make sense

[Chette]

Wizards. The class with lots of skill points to spare, get a new skill that's based on their casting stat.

Sorcerers. The class with no skill points to spare, get a new skill that's NOT based on their casting stat. Sorcerers, the nuking/spell damage class, are now weaker than wizards in terms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

Divines. The classes with ever fewer skill points to spare that sorcerers (due to typically being expected to scroll heal and thus needing concentration, as well as having two casting stats, wisdom and cha, instead of just one, cha, thus leaving fewer points for int), get TWO new skills, one of which is NOT based on their casting stat, and the other of which is based on their casting stat only if they are a DC caster (which they should be, but that's an argument for another thread...). Divines are now significantly weaker than arcanes in therms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

I would like to know the reason for this change. Why were wizards given much easier access to spell power than sorcerers? Why were arcanes given much easier access to the necessary spell power than divines? Is there something about divines on live right now that is overpowering and thus deserving of them receiving this relative nerf, compared to their arcane counterpart?

[redspecter23]

Wizards. The class with lots of skill points to spare, get a new skill that's based on their casting stat.

Sorcerers. The class with no skill points to spare, get a new skill that's NOT based on their casting stat. Sorcerers, the nuking/spell damage class, are now weaker than wizards in terms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

Divines. The classes with ever fewer skill points to spare that sorcerers (due to typically being expected to scroll heal and thus needing concentration, as well as having two casting stats, wisdom and cha, instead of just one, cha, thus leaving fewer points for int), get TWO new skills, one of which is NOT based on their casting stat, and the other of which is based on their casting stat only if they are a DC caster (which they should be, but that's an argument for another thread...). Divines are now significantly weaker than arcanes in therms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

I would like to know the reason for this change. Why were wizards given much easier access to spell power than sorcerers? Why were arcanes given much easier access to the necessary spell power than divines? Is there something about divines on live right now that is overpowering and thus deserving of them receiving this relative nerf, compared to their arcane counterpart?

Divines are healbots according to the latest development team. The fact that a divine might want to take spellcraft to increase spell based damage didn't even occur to them. It doesn't effect their healing so why would they bother? You get heal as a wisdom based skill and that raises your healing ability. You should be happy that you can be a better healbot.

[Chette]

Divines are healbots according to the latest development team. The fact that a divine might want to take spellcraft to increase spell based damage didn't even occur to them. It doesn't effect their healing so why would they bother? You get heal as a wisdom based skill and that raises your healing ability. You should be happy that you can be a better healbot.

But what about my Cha based FvS hjealbot*??? How am I supposed to heal and do nothing else with my 8 wisdom D: Wont *somebody* think of the healing?

*Note, sarcasm, I don't actually have one of these

[Iriale]

Skills as spellpower makes not sense. The skills should be active. Repair should allow repair damaged items and replace jeweler tools for augments. But we can’t obtain this, because store… Heal should allow small not-combat healing. Spellcraft in pnp is about identify magic. In ddo spellcraft don’t work.

Turbine say they want to make the skills more useful, but the truth is that they can’t do for don’t hurt the sales of his store. So, their solution is to create a new poblem: one new tax for all classes that cast spells

Specialist classes receive a lot of skill points in pnp because they need skills. Spellcasting classes doesn’t receive a lot of skill points because skills are no needed for spellcasting in pnp. In pnp no class needs crass-closs skills. In ddo cross-class skills are almost mandatory. But we have the same number of skill points than in pnp

Turbine is messing with the game ¬¬

[blackdae]

Turbine is messing with the game ¬¬

That's not true! They'd never do it!*



*Sarcasm..

[ishr]

Wizards. The class with lots of skill points to spare, get a new skill that's based on their casting stat.

Sorcerers. The class with no skill points to spare, get a new skill that's NOT based on their casting stat. Sorcerers, the nuking/spell damage class, are now weaker than wizards in terms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

Divines. The classes with ever fewer skill points to spare that sorcerers (due to typically being expected to scroll heal and thus needing concentration, as well as having two casting stats, wisdom and cha, instead of just one, cha, thus leaving fewer points for int), get TWO new skills, one of which is NOT based on their casting stat, and the other of which is based on their casting stat only if they are a DC caster (which they should be, but that's an argument for another thread...). Divines are now significantly weaker than arcanes in therms of acquiring skill-based spell power.

I would like to know the reason for this change. Why were wizards given much easier access to spell power than sorcerers? Why were arcanes given much easier access to the necessary spell power than divines? Is there something about divines on live right now that is overpowering and thus deserving of them receiving this relative nerf, compared to their arcane counterpart?

Yes, there are two possibilities, either this was not very well thought out by the devs, or they are intentionally trying to direct people away from playing sorcerers or anything but straight healbots. sorcerers are already receiving nerfs to their enhancement trees as well, making the wizard the best class for dps, DCs buffing (due to more feats - extend), and self healing, as the scroll mastery enhancement is also being nerfed for sorcs. essentially, the sorc will be a crappier version of the wizard in every way. the question is why? the deva received abundant feedback and supporting evidence in alpha and yet these massive nerfs still nade it to beta. i think its safe to say they are trying to drive players to other classes, though this is confusing as wizards are already the dominant casting class on the servers due to the force based shiradi build that benefits from more spell choices/SLAs... what a mystery

[Failedlegend]

Don't forget Palemasters are expected to pump the cross-class skill of Heal to pump up their neg energy spell power. None of these changes make any bloody sense...no one has these kinds of skill points.

I'd say either make concentration increase Universal Spellpower or increase the amount of spellpower that the Caster trees grant...either way remove spellcraft and return perform, heal and repair to the way they were before...or better yet actually use one of the several amazing suggestion for how to improve heal and repair to be useful (see: NOT mandatory)

[redspecter23]

I think the addition of spellcraft and the other skill based spellpower combined with the "points spent in tree" based spellpower or the lack thereof for paladins/rangers is just a convoluted, confusing mess. Turbine should remember to keep it simple. Complexity for the sake of complexity doesn't add to the game. In this case it actually reduces build options.

I really wish, they would sit down, figure out what these new spellpower changes are meant to accomplish, then find a much simpler, user friendly way to implement them, even if that means going back to what we had before and just putting spellpower enhancements into the trees and scrapping "points spent in tree" and skill based spellpower.

Logical game design dictates that you set a goal, then work an elegant way toward that goal. It seems in this case, Turbine doesn't know their own goal for spellpower and is just fumbling with unfinished, incomplete ideas.

[Dandonk]

Don't forget Palemasters are expected to pump the cross-class skill of Heal to pump up their neg energy spell power. None of these changes make any bloody sense...no one has these kinds of skill points.

I'd say either make concentration increase Universal Spellpower or increase the amount of spellpower that the Caster trees grant...either way remove spellcraft and return perform, heal and repair to the way they were before...or better yet actually use one of the several amazing suggestion for how to improve heal and repair to be useful (see: NOT mandatory)

Will have to agree here.

They're making toughness non-mandatory (good idea, bad implementation - but that's for another thread), and next thing they do is to make certain skills mandatory instead? Wut?

Make them useful, not must-have.

[Nabuchadnezzar83]

I like the skill changes
About 30 spell power won't make any great difference either way, that's what skill ranks and int differences might provide, other bonuses like epic bonuses, items and buffs are available to anyone, even those who don't care about the skills.
On my fvs, I'll just lower charisma from 18 to 16 and bump INT from 8 to 14, so I'll be able to max both spellcraft and heal with no real consequence except -1 to saves and about 30 less spell points.
Spellcraft and Heal as skills that increases spell power are a nice addition and not an unbalancing one since the difference between having the skill and not having it is so small.

[Failedlegend]

I like the skill changes
About 30 spell power won't make any great difference either way, that's what skill ranks and int differences might provide, other bonuses like epic bonuses, items and buffs are available to anyone, even those who don't care about the skills.
On my fvs, I'll just lower charisma from 18 to 16 and bump INT from 8 to 14, so I'll be able to max both spellcraft and heal with no real consequence except -1 to saves and about 30 less spell points.
Spellcraft and Heal as skills that increases spell power are a nice addition and not an unbalancing one since the difference between having the skill and not having it is so small.

You LIKE that Clerics now have 3 mandatory skills (Heal, Spellcraft & Concentration)...a class that only naturally gets 2 skill points. Yeah that's not limiting build variety at all.

Also to clarify the spellpower isn't a "bonus" the devs have nerfed the amount of spellpower granted by enhancements...the "improved" skills are to compensate for that.

Oh and of course we have Palemasters who's main element is of course neg energy which is governed by heal a skill WIZARDS DONT HAVE. Same issue with Bards who when played by a skilled player could heal raids but now their taking a huge hit to positive spell power since they don't have heal as a class skill either.

Sorcs of course also have limited skill points and already have plenty skills they want.


Yeah this is a great idea...

[Nabuchadnezzar83]

You call them mandatory, I call them a bonus if one is willing to spend 46 skill points for 23 spell power on healing and light damage. Some will do, others won't. To me, it's almost the same as a 2nd toughness in live as far as utility goes, I'll gladly spend the skill points because healing and light damage is all that I do on my fvs, but I can see an evoker build not put anything on heal since it's not that hard to keep people alive. Everybody can benefit from a +15/+20 skill item (if they'll actually exist for spellcraft, I already got my gauntlets of immortality), a +7 int diamond and other buffs. You only get 23 more spell power if you actually spend skill points on it. Is the +23 a dealbreaker? I personally don't think so.

[Failedlegend]

You call them mandatory, I call them a bonus if one is willing to spend 46 skill points for 23 spell power on healing and light damage. Some will do, others won't. To me, it's almost the same as a 2nd toughness in live as far as utility goes, I'll gladly spend the skill points because healing and light damage is all that I do on my fvs, but I can see an evoker build not put anything on heal since it's not that hard to keep people alive. Everybody can benefit from a +15/+20 skill item (if they'll actually exist for spellcraft, I already got my gauntlets of immortality), a +7 int diamond and other buffs. You only get 23 more spell power if you actually spend skill points on it. Is the +23 a dealbreaker? I personally don't think so.

It's not a bonus because the spellpower availible in enhancements was reduced to compensate for the new skills...thus its a penalty and mandatory if you want the same spellpower you havbe on live...well unless your a PM than your nerfed regardless since heal is cross-class

[FranOhmsford]

Will have to agree here.

They're making toughness non-mandatory (good idea, bad implementation - but that's for another thread), and next thing they do is to make certain skills mandatory instead? Wut?

Make them useful, not must-have.

There's a connection here that I'm gonna let you all in on...

The Devs have decided that people have got TOO MANY HP {Yes they've finally realised this is an issue!} and in their inimitable way have gone off in completely the opposite direction!

1. 25 HP {incl. Enhancements} on a Lvl 4 DOES NOT Compare with 46 - Vets and {Especially} TRs have ways around this...
Newbies are going to be hit the worst...
Completely the opposite of what the Devs seem to want!

P.S. 5 HP at Lvl 1 is NOT going to make a difference either! - Korthos isn't that difficult!
21 HP at Lvl 4 However is a massive loss when facing Maximised Traps and Kobold Lightning Bolts etc.

Ramp it up at Lvl 8-9 and 12-14 {17+ shouldn't be hit hard though so all's good for End-Gamers still}.

2. Spellcraft/Heal/Perform etc. being made MANDATORY = Clerics/Souls/Sorcs/Bards being basically forced into dialling back on CONSTITUTION!
Net Loss of HP!

Charisma is a Mandatory stat on my Clerics btw {it's not JUST for Souls} - Dial back on Charisma and a Cleric's best option for Non-Healbotry is GONE!.
I LOVE Being 40-60 Kills ahead of everyone else in the group in Delera's, Necropolis etc. {Yes Even Sorcs!}

{Would like to see more Undead in High Level quests of Course - And get rid of the TRULY RIDICULOUS Deathblock stopping Turn Undead}.

P.S. I still feel that Turn should Be Wisdom {Willpower} based BTW!

3. TRs {Legends} Have 36 Build Points - There's Lee-way and Dropping your WF Sorc's Con from 20-18 {or even 16} isn't going to make too much of a difference.
Heroes have 34 points but Lee-Way is available here too.
For Champions {and particularly} Adventurers however...These changes are going to cause EVEN MORE Seperation from the Elite Vets!

4. And Finally...We come to the REAL Reason behind Seperation of Vets and Newbies...

The One thing the Devs constantly Ignore {and make worse whenever possible - CANNITH CRAFTING for example}....

GEAR!!!

A Cleric can get 23 Concentration {Lvl 20 - Let's ignore Epic for now} from Skills
Base Constitution of 14 gives another 2!
3 from Enhancements - if you take them that is! {Imp Heal being the Mandatory enhancement for Radiant Servant}

Now we go to Gear...
+20 Item {Never seen one but assuming it's there}.
+5 Exceptional {again Never seen but available for other skills}.
+6 Con Skills Greensteel.
+3 from +6 Con item

Rogues have it Even Worse...

Disable, Search, Spot, Open Lock, UMD, Hide, Move Silently - ALL COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY USELESS without TOP END Gear {Admittedly current situation makes Disable easier and easier once past Lvl 15 - Where we have the Current Highest DC Trap in the game!}.

And don't get me started on Fighters and Paladins and INTIMIDATE!


Skills SHOULD MEAN SOMETHING!!!
Gear should mean much less than it currently does!

Suggestion for the Devs...
3 Points per rank of a Skill {1 Cross-Class}.
Gear remains the same as now.

Merge Skill Focus Open Lock and Disable Device Feats into Nimble Fingers {one feat instead of 3 - Yes I know no-one takes any of these atm}.
5 Bonus Skill Points instead of 2 {NF} or 3 {Focus}.

Look at other Feats to see what you can do similar.

Massively Boost Trap DCs of Lvl 18 Quests and Higher - A Trap in a Lvl 13 Quest {15 on Elite I know} EVEN IF it's meant as an EXTREME Challenge SHOULD NOT be higher than Traps in quests 5+ Lvls Higher!

Once you've worked out what the NEW easily available scores for Skills will be you can go back over the lower level game and put in VIABLE DCs.

OH AND...PLEASE...Remember what's gone before...AND...Fit the NEW in with the OLD!

[Nabuchadnezzar83]

With the difference that you have to spend action points on live to get the spell power only (20 out of 80 to get 80 spell power for light and positive). With the enhancement pass you can use the AP for other stuff and still get some spell power on all spells, including fire and force.
Talking about a healing fvs pov, all else being equal, I now have 80 healing, 80 light, 60 force (physical) and 60 fire spell power on live from enhancements.
My plan for the enhancement pass will grant me 60 healing spel power and 45 universal spell power, +0/30 from scourge and any extra from spellcraft/heal skill. Assuming that I don't spend any skill points in those, I'll find an easy +15 spellcraft item and I already have +20 heal item, +5 from intelligence/wisdom modifier (8 starting +3 tome +7 diamond +2 ship), +5 from epic levels, +2 from good luck slotted, +4 from greater heroism for a total of +31 from spellcraft and +36 from heal.
It adds up to 96 healing, 76 light, 76 force (physical) and 76 fire spell power, plus up to 30 from scourge. That's more than I have currently on live, without any skill point investment. Actual skill investment will give a "bonus" of +23 on top of these values. And I get to spend my AP on things other than plain spell power. For me, it's a win-win situation.

[LilyOphelia]

I've been thinking a lot about this. People keep screaming, pretty much, for balance when you ask for changes like this.

Spellcraft gives spell power to many different types of spells. Because it's an Int-based (and cross-class, for many classes) skill, it feels like it's going to incredibly costly to try and build a min/max character with the new spellcraft skill in the game. It feels unfair and mean to many classes. I really do understand that.

At the same time, DDO is a very unbalanced game, and trust me, I believe that you want it to stay that way. When you examine a game that strives for balance, you're looking more at games like WoW, which are incredibly boring precisely because everything has to be exactly equal. Every class needs to have exactly 82.5 points in spellcraft so that every class is exactly equal in exactly all the same ways...and that would be the road to alienating at least me as a player. I think it would kill the game for a great many other people as well.

Classes are packages. It's not just about what your spell power is, or how much dodge you have, or even what your max damage is. It's your package. Do you have UMD, how deep is your spell point pool (FVS vs. Clerics, for example), what spells do you have, what enhancements can you take, what utility do you have, and on and on.

If we demand too much balance, they're going to have to simplify everything in order to balance it. For example, they'd have to start by dumping multi-classing (or at least heap tons and tons of rules on it, like mandatory splits of some kind) to prevent abusive player strategies to min-max.

---

Oh, and for the record, I like the skill changes as well! Just my personal opinion, and I'm okay with them doing it or not doing it, but I personally vote (if it were a vote) for them to implement the system! It fits thematically and feels really fun to me; it makes skills I'd normally ignore (heal, hah!) suddenly interesting!

[LilyOphelia]

Divines are healbots according to the latest development team. The fact that a divine might want to take spellcraft to increase spell based damage didn't even occur to them. It doesn't effect their healing so why would they bother? You get heal as a wisdom based skill and that raises your healing ability. You should be happy that you can be a better healbot.

I took this as an example. If you play a cleric, you don't have to choose to specialize as a healbot (your words), but you are going to be a cleric still. You will be a better generalist healer than a wizard, because thematically, you're still a cleric. You probably won't be as wizardly as a wizard, because you're still a cleric! You can be a dark cleric, that curses and kills and sacrifices and does all sorts of naughty things, but you probably still know how to tend to a wound better than a wizard does, because you're still, at the end of the day, a cleric and not a wizard.

Given the themes of the class, it's not essential that both a cleric and a wizard have exactly the same 169.72 max spell power (made up number) from skills, enhancements, items, etc to have them both function. What matters is, as both classes, that you still have the spells and the option to do that dps. If there were damage meters (would be awful for the game), and they did a hypothetical 200 dps and you did 180 (or even 140) dps, it would all be just fine because this game isn't built on min-max, perfectly equal concepts.

Someone might say that if everything is not perfectly equal, it's a waste to bring a dps cleric versus a wizard, since the wizard is always going to be higher dps (200 versus 140). For many people that's the case and always will be the case. What really matters (at least to me and in my groups) is if people enjoy their characters, and have fun playing them. Do they feel like they can contribute to the group (and being the highest dps isn't the end-all of contributing); do they feel like they were an important part of the group that managed to succeed in the given adventure/challenge.

I really love DDO. Passionately. I feel this game is very different from the other MMOs on the market (and I've played a tremendous number of them). It still feels very much like DnD even with many of the changes; way more than a game like Neverwinter Online (which, of course, I checked out as well). I think perfectly balanced will kill the game for many people.

[Tscheuss]

I took this as an example. If you play a cleric, you don't have to choose to specialize as a healbot (your words), but you are going to be a cleric still. You will be a better generalist healer than a wizard, because thematically, you're still a cleric. You probably won't be as wizardly as a wizard, because you're still a cleric! You can be a dark cleric, that curses and kills and sacrifices and does all sorts of naughty things, but you probably still know how to tend to a wound better than a wizard does, because you're still, at the end of the day, a cleric and not a wizard.

Given the themes of the class, it's not essential that both a cleric and a wizard have exactly the same 169.72 max spell power (made up number) from skills, enhancements, items, etc to have them both function. What matters is, as both classes, that you still have the spells and the option to do that dps. If there were damage meters (would be awful for the game), and they did a hypothetical 200 dps and you did 180 (or even 140) dps, it would all be just fine because this game isn't built on min-max, perfectly equal concepts.

Someone might say that if everything is not perfectly equal, it's a waste to bring a dps cleric versus a wizard, since the wizard is always going to be higher dps (200 versus 140). For many people that's the case and always will be the case. What really matters (at least to me and in my groups) is if people enjoy their characters, and have fun playing them. Do they feel like they can contribute to the group (and being the highest dps isn't the end-all of contributing); do they feel like they were an important part of the group that managed to succeed in the given adventure/challenge.

I really love DDO. Passionately. I feel this game is very different from the other MMOs on the market (and I've played a tremendous number of them). It still feels very much like DnD even with many of the changes; way more than a game like Neverwinter Online (which, of course, I checked out as well). I think perfectly balanced will kill the game for many people.

Nicely said.

Balance has a different context in D&D, but many forget that. Balance in this game applies to the diverse skills and talents brought by the varied members of a party. I believe the soloists are more upset with the changes than the team players are; however, even among team players, there are many who want to be MVP's and get credit for the kills, not the assists.

This is all good. DDO supports diversity. This is what makes the game special.

[DDOForumAccount]

I don't really mind that wizards get a bit more spellpower due to having better int than say, a sorcerer or a cleric. What I do mind is, that wizard also has much much much much much easier road to maxing spellcraft.

The spellcraft is horrible for the classes struggling with skillpoints already.

[Nabuchadnezzar83]

I don't really mind that wizards get a bit more spellpower due to having better int than say, a sorcerer or a cleric. What I do mind is, that wizard also has much much much much much easier road to maxing spellcraft.

The spellcraft is horrible for the classes struggling with skillpoints already.

Meh just put 2 more points into INT and one less point into another stat. Concentration, UMD, Balance, Spellcraft. Can max them all with an INT of 14 (12 if human), maybe less with tomes.