Shapeshifting: more drawbacks, fewer benefits

[Soulfurnace]

-stuff about wraps-

My bad, I missed that.
However, I brought up a TWF unarmed druid build, grabbed its +damage, wrap dice, did some math, got some nice numbers, went to do the same for you, then realised I have absolutely no clue as to what your gear/feats are.
Looking back, it's very funny, at least as far as I can see.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I'm honestly curious, who wins the math battle!

As such, I'd be very interested if you could pm me (on forums, of course) anything you have relating to damage; total str (or mod, same thing), what W your wraps are at, anything directly boosting damage and/or sneak attack, etc. I won't promise my math to be 100% correct (or even partially), but I'd like to see the numbers regardless. At the least, they're an indication.
(And if someone more experienced than I would like to go through my workings-out before I share (with Irongutz and/or the forums, depending on what he'd prefer) the results, that'd also be greatly appreciated! If you'd like to volunteer, again, please drop me a message.)

[unbongwah]

Gonna say it again, maybe someone will read it this time, U can make a wolf have 4.5-6.5 w 1d10 and the max onn my monk is 9.0 w 1d6.

Which EDs & Twists do you use to get the drunk wolf's +[W] that high?

[Rusty_Can]

Which EDs & Twists do you use to get the drunk wolf's +[W] that high?

WAG:

2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels
+ 1 W from ML 20 handwraps, higher (+1.5 or +2 W) if you consider some epic wraps
+ 1.5 W from a Dance of Flowers (cheap twist if you are not running in GMoF)
+ 1 W from Dancing with Flames (It requires being in GMoF and in Fire Stance)
+ 0.5 W from Improved PA
+ 0.5 W from Reinforced Fist gear
+ 0.5 W from monk past life, if available

[Lonnbeimnech]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamant...%28Level_25%29 is w[3.5]

reinforcing fists w[.5]

dance of flowers w[1.5]

monk past life w[.5]

so 6[1d10]

[Lonnbeimnech]

WAG:
1 W from Dancing with Flames (expensive twist from GMoF, it requires being in Fire Stance)

tier 5 ability, cant be twisted, unfortunatly

[Rusty_Can]

tier 5 ability, cant be twisted, unfortunatly

Correct. Fixing *blushes*.

However, still an option if you are running in GMoF.

[SerPounce]

WAG:

2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels
+ 1 W from ML 20 handwraps, higher (+1.5 or +2 W) if you consider some epic wraps
+ 1.5 W from a Dance of Flowers (cheap twist if you are not running in GMoF)
+ 1 W from Dancing with Flames (It requires being in GMoF and in Fire Stance)
+ 0.5 W from Improved PA
+ 0.5 W from Reinforced Fist gear
+ 0.5 W from monk past life, if available

12 monk levels? so no natural fighting feats, no animal growth, no decent heal spells, etc.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Adamant...%28Level_25%29 is w[3.5]

I'm sure the rest of your DPS calcs will be with those wraps also, right?

U Second off u get snowslide and howl of terror,

What's the breakdown on that howl of terror DC?

for 150+ onn a normal hit.

150 on a non-crit "normal" hit? Can I see that breakdown?

. As far as the cool downs go......never been a prob yet, each to there own, u wanna play a caster druid that's cool, but don't go hateing onn the wolf u don't understand :P

If you're not bothered at all by 2.5x cooldowns, you're not making very good use of your spellcasting abilities.

You can throw out of context numbers around all you want, but when you try to put it all together you can't get everything.

I'd love to see the breakdown and bulid that gets
50+ earthquake, snowslide, and howl of terror DCs
6w and 150+ on a "normal" hit
60+ stunning fist,
all essential melee feats (along with monk PL, as that's apparently something everyone fits in also).
30+ PRR (you want to say alive in EE right?)
45+ reflex (all this talk of evasion is pointless without it)

[EssenceofEvil]

I like having high wisdom on my Druid.. I wish I could have my cake and eat it too with shape shifting. Ie staff of nat gann, staff of seer or that healing scepter that uses wis/cha for damage/hit would translate over into shapeshifting forms. I guess the elemental ones would work but not the animal ones. Oh we'll cant have everything.....

[RudedawCDN]

I like having high wisdom on my Druid.. I wish I could have my cake and eat it too with shape shifting. Ie staff of nat gann, staff of seer or that healing scepter that uses wis/cha for damage/hit would translate over into shapeshifting forms. I guess the elemental ones would work but not the animal ones. Oh we'll cant have everything.....

I feel we give up too much of our "Druidness" to use Bear or Wolf Form.

I mean really wouldn't it make more sense to play a monk?

I play a Water Elementalist and melee just fine in Fury of the Wild with Stave of the Seer (it loves wisdom lvl ups!), Shillelagh (Same as Deadly Weapons Buff with Stave of Seer) and overwhelming critical blunt.

Plus; I have splashed 2 levels of Monk and twist Dance of Flowers and fight centered so that gives me another 1.5

I hit on average for 100-120 per swing. While in Wolf Form with Grave Wrappings I hit for on average 50-60 per swing. So in Wolf Form I need double strike to reach the same kind of average dps.

But I also lose the 25% cold debuff (for sweet greater creeping cold dot awesomeness) and the -4 to reflex save (for my EQ's).

Greater Creeping Cold does really nice dot damage and it's very cheap to cast.

I don't know if Wolf Form / Double Strike / +Wrapping modifiers makes up for the damage difference.

Loss of 3-5 feats to make wolf form dps viable - let's face it - if you are going to play Wolf Form you need to max out double strike - which means you are feat starved for anything that let's you pretend to be anything but a Druid in name.

Loss of Wisdom skill ups and all that entails.

I just think you give up too much "Druid" to play in Wolf Form or Bear Form.

[Tilomere]

I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

[JasonJi72]

I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

*Runs in and grabs Tilomere, and rapidly removes him from the room*

Nothing to see here devs... go back to your coloring books...

DOH! That was a close one!

[Tilomere]

*Runs in and grabs Tilomere, and rapidly removes him from the room*

Nothing to see here devs... go back to your coloring books...

DOH! That was a close one!

Oh my bad, my math was wrong. I forgot a 30% multiplier for static spell critical effects! The numbers are actually higher...

[SerPounce]

I think the answers make the point. The question boils down to "How to make Druid animal form viable end game?"

The answers are all of the form: Do not be a druid. They deflect and don't actually answer the real question.

To illustrate how alien these answers are, here is another viable solution : splash 18 levels of sorc and chain cast different missiles and multihit ray/meteor spells as a wolf in shiradi. Now your wolf form has no-save CC and sorc level dps. It will honestly do more damage than a sorc/pali since you can stack druid and sorc spell enhancement lines!


Although I honestly think the question not asked is: Are druids such powerful spell casters that their added animal form dps needs to be held in check?

Mass regen on a pure 1x/2mnk/17 helf druid in primal ED is 25 or so a tick. 300 spellpower makes it 100. This is reasonable.

Then you break it with the following:

1.21 multiplier Monk Dilly
1.21 multiplier Human HAmp (helf only gets 2 ranks)
1.1 Gear
1.2 Gear
1.3 Gear
1.1 Ship
1.25 Jidz Tet'ka

And you end up with a 3.45x healing multiplier so your mass regen heals for 345 per tick, AoE (although other players in AoE will likely heal for less).

Add in spring's resurgence and you are looking at 200hp/sec healing AoE for 6 minutes or so, or basically invulnerability.

I would argue that any caster class that grants AoE invulnerability for 6 minutes to your party better not also have top of the line melee dps. They need subpar melee dps to be forced to spend mana on something other than invulnerability.

Meh, that's got a whole lot more to do with the power of healing amp's multiplicative stacking than regenerate. Once you have 3.45x amp (and that's a significant investment you have to make to get that: 4 gear slots, 12 AP, racial choice, dilly (giving up 3d6 SA)) you can be healed in all kinds of unusual ways. Regen does take advantage of it nicely (though not as nicely as super efficient renewal or the completely passive RS aura or fvs20 clw sla), but at best it's just doing what can be done in dozens of other ways slightly more efficiently. The operative ability here is massive amp, not anything druid specific.

[Tilomere]

Other ways of healing such as mass cure light wounds or cleric aura just indicate that other healers are equally viable. It doesn't answer if druid is such a powerful spell caster that melee dps needs to be held in check.

Ok so you want a build that doesn't give up anything. High dps, high healing, AND extended invulnerability. Now normally I would say that's sorta broke, but this is DDO, home of the juggernaut. Here is a Lamnia one:

3 monk 17 druid HELF Rogue dilly.

Get 3 sneak attack die and 10% healing amp from monk (ninja spy and shintao)
Get 3 sneak attack die and healing amp from natures warrior? (Don't know for sure what lvl req. for instinctive fighting)
Get 3 sneak attack die from Rogue dilly, and 20% HAmp from HELF enh.

Realize your healing spell power isn't so hot so get EmpH to make up for it. Mass Regen now costs 60.

Use Align the Heavens monk finisher to reduce mass regen to 45.

Use Essence of the Shrike to reduce mass regen to 25, or 150/minute.

You now have lots of sneak attack dice for solid wolf dps and attack, this allows you to stack con for solid HP, can maintain a decent mass regen as a permanent buff, can still maintain a high HAmp, and can use handwraps for increased die step, all at the same time.

And you still have full free choice of ED and twists.

On live you can't get 3 sneak attack monk die or wolf form healing amp, but you can get an 18 mana mass regen since you won't need to empower it with access to healing enhancements.

[SerPounce]

Other ways of healing such as mass cure light wounds or cleric aura just indicate that other healers are equally viable. It doesn't answer if druid is such a powerful spell caster that melee dps needs to be held in check.

Ok so you want a build that doesn't give up anything. High dps, high healing, AND extended invulnerability. Now normally I would say that's sorta broke, but this is DDO, home of the juggernaut. Here is a Lamnia one:

3 monk 17 druid HELF Rogue dilly.

Get 3 sneak attack die and 10% healing amp from monk (ninja spy and shintao)
Get 3 sneak attack die and healing amp from natures warrior? (Don't know for sure what lvl req. for instinctive fighting)
Get 3 sneak attack die from Rogue dilly, so total of 12.

Realize your healing spell power isn't so hot so get EmpH to make up for it. Mass Regen now costs 60.

Use Align the Heavens monk finisher to reduce mass regen to 45.

Use Essence of the Shrike to reduce mass regen to 25, or 150/minute.

You now have lots of sneak attack dice for solid wolf dps and attack, this allows you to stack con for solid HP, can maintain a decent mass regen as a permanent buff, can still maintain a high HAmp, and can use handwraps for increased die step, all at the same time.

And you still have full free choice of ED and twists.

On live you can't get 3 sneak attack monk die or wolf form healing amp, but you can get an 18 mana mass regen since you won't need to empower it with access to healing enhancements.

You're still missing the point: Why be a wolf as opposed to an elemental drunk with wraps or a Sireth like a melee fvs/cleric? DPS is a wash (less if you consider spell dps), and no 2.5x cooldowns, better stunning first with wraps (due to 2wf doublestrike), better DCs (due to debuffs), and +100% fort and stunning immunity to boot.

It's not that druids are necessarily bad, it's that animal forms are a trap. You're better melee in elemental.

[Tilomere]

My wolf ice cleave life went really, really fast. 1-20 everything just melted, and then I TR'd.

I know that wolf form was faster leveling than Druid AA 1-20 and druid heal bot.

In EE, I would expect wolf form to shine as primary group healer, since with longer fights a lower mass regen cost would be more relevant. I've only done EE as a healbot fire ele and AA, but I did have mana issues trying to keep mass regen rolling for extended periods of time.

I've been doing a bunch of EE's. I think if I'm in PA and twist renewal + healing spring to keep other allies up it will all work out. Wolf and summon might not die due to PA, and allies might not die due to stacking renewal on top of a weaker mass regen.

[RudedawCDN]

Oh my bad, my math was wrong. I forgot a 30% multiplier for static spell critical effects! The numbers are actually higher...

So you are seriously playing a Wolf Form Druid to be a heal bot?

"Theory crafting" is fine - but let's stick to reality folks.

[SirValentine]

2 W from monk levels, 2.5 if you go for 12 monk levels

Wait, is this about Druids (possibly with Monk or other splashes), or about Monks (with Druid splashes)?

12 Monk is a Monk, not a Druid.

[Tilomere]

So you are seriously playing a Wolf Form Druid to be a heal bot?

You can live through a hard fight as a druid by heal botting or CCing mobs with earthquake. Neither method really deals damage.

One of the methods shakes the entire screen continuously.

[SerPounce]

You can live through a hard fight as a druid by heal botting or CCing mobs with earthquake. Neither method really deals damage.

One of the methods shakes the entire screen continuously.

And the other one uses 5x the SP.