Shapeshifting: more drawbacks, fewer benefits

[Charononus]

To an extent, but druids don't have anything like chain missiles to really take advantage of Shiradi so it's not as relevant an option. And if your DCs aren't up to snuff, then why not go STR based? And if you're STR based why be a druid at all?

But that's not the whole story with EQ anyway. As a reflex save spell it's much more reasonable to get a workable EE DC (for non-rogue mobs at least). But you need to spend feats (that a melee wolf won't have) on it and take advantage of the -4 reflex debuff from mantle of the icy soul (no equivalent debuff for wolves).

True enough but, for a wolf build you could go 9/9/2 druid monk fighter. With ed's in gmof you'd end up with 5.75[1d10] 17-18 x3, 19-20x4. Stunning fist of 45-47 I believe which while not great isn't horrible, ein, knockdown immunity, dw, fom, quickend vigor cure crit and twist in cocoon. 18% doublestrike from feats and a doublstrike item leaves you with 24% doublestrike. You'd also be able to get a 40-50 reflex save and improved evasion as well as scrollable fire shields. This would be with a 16 wis and 16 starting str with level ups in str. You'd also be able to switch between power attack and precision as the situation called for. Also every class can take advantage of solid fog clickies for -5 to reflex saves.

I've stopped playing because of the etr proposal but this was my project when that was released to the forums, only got him to 16, but that was the numbers and theory behind it.

[Charononus]

edit* double post these forums really suck.

[SerPounce]

True enough but, for a wolf build you could go 9/9/2 druid monk fighter. With ed's in gmof you'd end up with 5.75[1d10] 17-18 x3, 19-20x4. Stunning fist of 45-47 I believe which while not great isn't horrible, ein, knockdown immunity, dw, fom, quickend vigor cure crit and twist in cocoon. 18% doublestrike from feats and a doublstrike item leaves you with 24% doublestrike. You'd also be able to get a 40-50 reflex save and improved evasion as well as scrollable fire shields. This would be with a 16 wis and 16 starting str with level ups in str. You'd also be able to switch between power attack and precision as the situation called for. Also every class can take advantage of solid fog clickies for -5 to reflex saves.

I've stopped playing because of the etr proposal but this was my project when that was released to the forums, only got him to 16, but that was the numbers and theory behind it.

I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

[RudedawCDN]

No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

[Lonnbeimnech]

No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

You know how with 2 handed weapons, str mod to damage is 150%? Well that's str. A 2 handed weapon using dex or wis or int will only add 100%.

So it will work, kinda, and it will probably hit higher than any other option you have as a wis based str dumped build, esp since its 1.5[2d6] and its wood, so with shillelagh thats 2.5[2d6] at level 8...so not bad, but you wont be doing the same damage as a str build with a str based weapon.

[Superhanns]

Those animal forms should be improved, at the same time nerf earthquake as its completely op in EE let alone lesser content

[Charononus]

No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

possible wis + at level 20

18 base + 3 class enhancements + 1 racial (human) +7 item + 2 insightful +1 exceptional = 32 wis so + 11 modifier (not factoring tomes ship buffs ext because you could go str for those as well and it makes no difference.

possible str + at level 20

18 base + 2 class +1 racial (human) +7 item + 2 insightful + 1 exceptional +4 alchemical(tensor scroll, could happen) + 5 primal scream + 4 animal growth = 44 so +17 modifier

So str based you beat the stave of the seer by +5 damage even though this ignores level ups as they'd probably be the same. Ignoring the less likely tensors you still beat the stave by +3. THF is definately slower than wolf attack rate as well. The only way the stave makes sense is as a melee option for a str dumped caster druid, but assuming no fire immunity flame blade probably beats this option out as well.

[Charononus]

I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

looking back I think I screwed up my stunning fist math and you're right it should be higher but I disagree with the +20 for a wis mod. First life with a starting 16 and level ups in str I don't see how you're getting to a standing wis of 50. You also forgot +3 I think it is for being in gmof.

[SerPounce]

looking back I think I screwed up my stunning fist math and you're right it should be higher but I disagree with the +20 for a wis mod. First life with a starting 16 and level ups in str I don't see how you're getting to a standing wis of 50. You also forgot +3 I think it is for being in gmof.

Yeah for sure. I was thinking WIS based, for 16 starting WIS with lvl ups in STR your talking at least 8 less WIS, probably more due to other decisions, so probably more like +12 there. Do the GMoF innates stack with legendary tactics?

I see why you'd go STR based with the winter wolf crit profile, but your stunning fist is going to be mediocre for EE. I know for myself if I'm going to run around with the kind of low PRR and modest HP that build would have, I'd want a rock solid stunning fist. Maybe if you had some fighter past lives and could fit in improved sunder SF would be reliable enough.

No one has replied to my comment about Stave of the Seer and I am curious what more experienced Druid's opinions are who have compared dps between wolf form and the stave.

I still use the stave at 20 because it works off my wisdom.

So I feel I get 2 key benefits; maxxed wisdom and a melee dps based off of wisdom instead of strength.

Thoughts?

On top of what everyone else said, your missing out on: weapon mods, wolf attack speed, wolf sneak attack, and wolf special attacks... I don't see how getting your WIS to damage is going to stack up against that. That's going to be what? +10 at the most? Decent weapon mods alone would make up for that (holy of bleeding is +10.5).

[Charononus]

Yeah for sure. I was thinking WIS based, for 16 starting WIS with lvl ups in STR your talking at least 8 less WIS, probably more due to other decisions, so probably more like +12 there. Do the GMoF innates stack with legendary tactics?

I see why you'd go STR based with the winter wolf crit profile, but your stunning fist is going to be mediocre for EE. I know for myself if I'm going to run around with the kind of low PRR and modest HP that build would have, I'd want a rock solid stunning fist. Maybe if you had some fighter past lives and could fit in improved sunder SF would be reliable enough.

Oh no doubt, and my first thoughts were to go that way. I just wanted to illustrate the concepts. The toon that I was working on was that way as a test on a 32 pt first lifer. If I went that way on a non-first life toon that had more than +2 tomes I would probably do something like 18 starting str +4 tome (have never lucked out on a +5 yet on any toon) and with one level up in str for the 23 str needed for oc with the rest in wisdom for better stunning dcs. I just tend to use first life toons for test builds before I go thru a tr life with something that may or may not end up as a fun experience due to the third life exp curve.

edit
90% sure the innate abilities stack with legendary tactics.

[Delacroix21]

I disagree here. One could easily say, "Give Rogues/Fighters/FvS/etc a base 80% to hit with offhand attacks and remove the TWF feats, these feats (all 3) are not a bonus to TWF melee, but are required to be even remotely viable".

However, I would like it if the doublestrike from the feats was increased, perhaps to 8%.

I could stand to have the double strike bonuses increased. As for the TWF reference i feel that those feats are more optional as a character could easily go THF and ignore them, but that is likely true because the THF feats are so weak many ignore them.


In that case: buff doublestrike feats and buff THF feats


I hope the Devs continue to watch this thread and strongly consider them. We waited SO LONG for the druid class only to be offered such a weak product. It seems as if the Devs thought the opposite was true and believed the class would be OP and thus nerfed their spell cool downs as a result. How wrong they were.

[Irongutz2000]

I agree that to if there is a way to make a wolf forum druid EE viable it's probably with a deep "splash." DC 45-7 stunning fist is gawd awful, but I'm sure you could actually get it much higher than that: 10 +12 (lvls) +20 (wisdom) + 10 (gear) +5 (exceptional gear) +6 (legendary tactics twist) = 63. Of course at that point you really do need to compare it to a pure melee, probably a monk in this case. My gut is that it's going to favor the monk (more base damage, more attacks/min, better saves, faster movement speed, T4 stances, T2/3 PrEs, etc)

Um u don't need a DEEP splash to make a good druid. I am running a 17 druid, 2 monk, 1 wizzy. Has a 51 evo dc for earth quake, a 64 stunning fist dc, 24 % doublestrike. And 4.5 to 6.0 W using handwraps.

So I have earthquake, heal and decent dps....I have done many EE's with him and always get the whats ur evo dc or some kind of comment while playing him, heck even have some ppl rolling up druids to try it. I prefer primal avatar though....

[SerPounce]

Um u don't need a DEEP splash to make a good druid. I am running a 17 druid, 2 monk, 1 wizzy. Has a 51 evo dc for earth quake, a 64 stunning fist dc, 24 % doublestrike. And 4.5 to 6.0 W using handwraps.

So I have earthquake, heal and decent dps....I have done many EE's with him and always get the whats ur evo dc or some kind of comment while playing him, heck even have some ppl rolling up druids to try it. I prefer primal avatar though....

Sure, but why be a wolf rather than an elemental? No 2.5x cooldowns, debuffs from mantle of the icy soul or dps from body of the sun, 80+% doublestrike for better stunning fist, +100% fort (great for EE).

the 2.5x cooldowns alone are kind of a dealbreaker for non-pure wolves in my mind. That's over an 11 second cooldown for heal... 2.5 minutes for storm of vengeance...

It's not druids that are bad, elementals can do well, it's just wolf druids.

[Irongutz2000]

Sure, but why be a wolf rather than an elemental? No 2.5x cooldowns, debuffs from mantle of the icy soul or dps from body of the sun, 80+% doublestrike for better stunning fist, +100% fort (great for EE).

the 2.5x cooldowns alone are kind of a dealbreaker for non-pure wolves in my mind. That's over an 11 second cooldown for heal... 2.5 minutes for storm of vengeance...

It's not druids that are bad, elementals can do well, it's just wolf druids.

Um first off wolf form give u 17-20 times 3, wraps give u 19-20 times 2. Second off u get snowslide and howl of terror, both great abilities. Thrid is all the sneak attack u gain, I see numbers of 30+ onn mine... combat log is always u sneak attack such and such for 150+ onn a normal hit.

Has anyone tested the dps difference between a good geared wolf and say a twfing druid? I can almost 100% say that the wolf does more dps. As far as the cool downs go......never been a prob yet, each to there own, u wanna play a caster druid that's cool, but don't go hateing onn the wolf u don't understand :P

[Soulfurnace]

I can almost 100% say that the wolf does more dps.

I... What? o.O

[Delacroix21]

Dps issues aside, the increased spell cool downs are unwarranted, and it makes no sense that other casters do not suffer from them when using Melee weapons and the like.


Fvs and clerics can use divine power that makes bab equal to that of a fighter, using epic weapons with an expanded crit range and multiplier (better than wolf stance). Even tensors transformation has less of a spell cooldown increase and it does the above with a stackable 4 dex, con, str and 6ac!


The enhancement pass does nothing to address animal form woes, as they are cookie cutter from enhancements on live. Also the save DCs need a strong buff, and if you still want them to use wisdom, then u need to add druid/character levels to the DCs like the monk class. Even then i still believe the DCs will be rather low due to many of them not being effected by items like vertigo etc. I also strongly urge you add character levels over druid levels to DCs, as this will allow these abilities to scale in epic content as well, and you did it for stunning fist.

[Irongutz2000]

I... What? o.O

Have u tested it? got any numbers to share? I know a regular wolf druid doesn't do great dps. But the handwrap using version with the 4.5 to 6.0 1d10 17 -20 X3 + sneak ataack. Does decent damage or at leat that's what I am seeing in play. I have a barb ,monk ,ranger to compare it to , even though its not top dps its still pretty decent considering u have EQ and heal, among many other abilities.

[OverlordOfRats]

Title says it all.

Enhancements use bluff and intimidate. Intimidate is a class skill but not bluff.

[Soulfurnace]

Alright, the crit profiles! 20% to get x3 is equal to 10% to get x5 (assuming the same base damage, which isn't entirely true.. Monk has more from W on wraps) Draw. (Also doesn't include weapon effects, with bursts, blasts, etc. Unless you define equal weapons)

*edit* Forgot attack speeds! Wolf has a 30% (or so I'm told, I don't trust it), whereas a monk has... how much? Never looked that figure up.

Also the 1d10 versus... hm. We'll go with the example before, 4.5W on [1d6]. Monk wins.

You get 4d6 sneak attack damage. Seeming I like the heal spell, and love human (for feats :P) the monk will have no sneak attack. +1 to the wolf.

The doublestrike... Wolf pulls ahead through shield mastery, by 8%. +1 to the wolf.

The offhand, 80%. As it's unarmed, it gains full str bonuses, so it is quite honestly 1.8 attacks. Wolf gets no off-head attacks, thus +1 to the monk.

So, in favour of the wolf; 4d6 sneak attack, 8% doublestrike and a faster attack speed (though, not by a great amount). In favour of the monk, higher damage on wraps (versus wolf's 1d10), and 80% offhand.

Now, I know wolves get specific spells, and I would add them as damage to the wolf, but by that logic, I'd need to add +1 to the monk for being able to use other druid spells more often, wouldn't I?
If so, that renders wolf spells rather moot.

I based it off a monk with the lowest (with 1 monk level) damage die, monk also had OC and was in dreadnought; because let's face it, Dreadnought is fun. I guess it's unfair that I don't include OC or dreadnought (which is just +2 to crit multi on 19-20), but as the OP stated, wolves don't get a changing crit multiplier.

Please, tell me if I've missed anything regarding wolves. I'm not going to tell you not to play one, that they're boring, etc, because fun is fun. I just don't see many bonuses.

Also, sorry that I can't crunch the exact numbers, merely listing who wins each, shall we say, category. If you're more suited to the task, by all means, do it. (And please, post all the workings out, I'm interested to learn, because I have no clue what gear to include for the wolf)

*edit* That's (yet another) text wall so, I'll apologise for a lack of formatting too! ^^

[Irongutz2000]

Alright, the crit profiles! 20% to get x3 is equal to 10% to get x5 (assuming the same base damage, which isn't entirely true.. Monk has more from W on wraps) Draw. (Also doesn't include weapon effects, with bursts, blasts, etc. Unless you define equal weapons)

*edit* Forgot attack speeds! Wolf has a 30% (or so I'm told, I don't trust it), whereas a monk has... how much? Never looked that figure up.

Also the 1d10 versus... hm. We'll go with the example before, 4.5W on [1d6]. Monk wins.

You get 4d6 sneak attack damage. Seeming I like the heal spell, and love human (for feats :P) the monk will have no sneak attack. +1 to the wolf.

The doublestrike... Wolf pulls ahead through shield mastery, by 8%. +1 to the wolf.

The offhand, 80%. As it's unarmed, it gains full str bonuses, so it is quite honestly 1.8 attacks. Wolf gets no off-head attacks, thus +1 to the monk.

So, in favour of the wolf; 4d6 sneak attack, 8% doublestrike and a faster attack speed (though, not by a great amount). In favour of the monk, higher damage on wraps (versus wolf's 1d10), and 80% offhand.

! ^^

Gonna say it again, maybe someone will read it this time, U can make a wolf have 4.5-6.5 w 1d10 and the max onn my monk is 9.0 w 1d6. The wolf is ahead onn base damage, u have to be a monk splash using wraps though. Never asked ppl to compare 20 druids dps cause I have tested it myself its pretty bad, but the monk mix is pretty decent.