Epic Level & Iconic TR

[Hokiewa]

Yet another "game system" when previous incarnations of "new game systems" are still woefully incomplete. Can you for once finish something that you've started. You are diving into a new system when you have not published the debalce of an enhancement system?

Lol.

[maddmatt70]

Wow. This is going to lead to several people quitting DDO. They just ground out a godzillion destiny experience and now if they true reincarnate they lose all that so a player's options are to:
1. never true reincarnate again. This means that the player can not remake a build that becomes washed up or try something different and has overall less reason to play ddo because they can not participate in the new grind.
2. Reincarnate again for some advantages, but you lose all that xp and all the time spent earning the xp was an absolute waste of time. Not to mention reincarante means losing alot of power that the player previously had. They lose all their twists, fate points etc.

Producer Glin this is terrible.

[Charononus]

I believe also that even when you epic TR you start back at level 1. Were you thinking they would have a way to TR just back to 20? I also was liking what I saw until I noticed the part of losing you ED's XP for any type of TR. That is just a horrible thought.

It was more what I had thought the system would be like from previous rumors ext, this thing I think is an abomination.

[Deadlock]

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:

• Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind

So this means that it won't be what we currently have from 20 to 25 projected forward to 28? So it won't be:

21	  300,000
22	  750,000
23	1,350,000
24	2,100,000
25	3,000,000
26	4,050,000
27	5,250,000
28	6,600,000

Any reason we can't get specific numbers on this? You're upping the cap to 28 in 2 months time ... so which will we go live with on the 19th August? This or something different? And if this, are you saying that it will then be adjusted?

[Jacobius]

Alright, so, to sum up:

*EDs will have their own PL feats.
*Epic TRs grant the ED-PL for the Bonded ED and erase ED XP for non-bonded EDs.
*Epic TRs will allow up to 38-pt builds.
*Regular TRs will function as normal...EXCEPT...
*ALL TRs will offer "Epic Advantage," one heroic rank per ED level gained.
*LRs will now create 32-pt builds
*Iconics get their own PL feats.
*You can TR into an Iconic (Nae's third life will be a Shadar-Kai, thank you).
*GRs are being eliminated.
*XP per TR might be reworked (please and thank you).

Sounds reasonable.

This part (in Red) also removes all ED xp gained that is not bonded even on a regular TR the way it reads. That is the part people are not liking at all.

[debo]

Can you clarify that those of us with 30+ lives will have to REDO atleast 1 life for EACH Epic Destiny in order to get the epic destiny past life thing?
Or is there going to be a way to ONLY TR the actual epic destiny part lvl 20-28 instead of lvl 1-28 again?

[Loromir]

I think I too read it as you lose non bonded desitinies when you EPIC TR.....I don't think Iconic or Heroic TR will cost you the destinies.

Just like with Heroic TR, there has to be some trade off. When you TR as Heroic, you lose all Pre's, Feats, Enhancements, etc....you start over from scratch with only 2 extra stat points..

I don't really have a problem with losing your epid destinies when you epic TR. I would like to see the option to go into the destiny of your new TR'd class without having to follow the map however.

[SisAmethyst]

I am not sure they are saying that you loose the ED xp. It is possible that the "Karmic Bond" is just to 'check off' a maximized ED solely for the purposes of it being used to add 'ranks' to your TR. If so, that would mean that with each epic TR you would have to make a different maxed ED active right before your TR in order to get the bonus ranks...

I hope you are right, but yes, more clarification on this topic would be much appreciated as otherwise it will stop my further reincarnation plans.

I'm guessing there's going to be True Hearts of Wood for similar to current heroic TR that doesn't affect your ED XP as well as new Epic True Hearts of Wood that require you to be L28, have an active maxed ED and this will wipe out your ED XP but will give you the new ED past life feat and will lock ("bond") that Epic TR'ed ED as capped...

Arggh, not sure this is such a good idea. I mean I am very happy they finally get rid of that LR and GR clutter. So that is really a good change that a LR will allow to transfer from 28pt to 32 pt. But if they just got rid of the GR heart to add a couple of more hearts where you then even have to take care as hell that you not get the wrong one or wipe your ED, nahhhh ...

[Teh_Troll]

I have to read this like 4 more times . . . but did these guys actually find a way to make the ED grind in DDO worse?

[Charononus]

I have to read this like 4 more times . . . but did these guys actually find a way to make the ED grind in DDO worse?

Feels like another case of corrupt a wish doesn't it.

[Jacobius]

I think I too read it as you lose non bonded desitinies when you EPIC TR.....I don't think Iconic or Heroic TR will cost you the destinies.

Just like with Heroic TR, there has to be some trade off. When you TR as Heroic, you lose all Pre's, Feats, Enhancements, etc....you start over from scratch with only 2 extra stat points..

I don't really have a problem with losing your epid destinies when you epic TR. I would like to see the option to go into the destiny of your new TR'd class without having to follow the map however.

Except this were it states with ANY kind of TR you lose ED XP that is not bonded.

With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

[jalont]

Some comments: 1. IF you reduce the xp curve for TRs, then you must also implement the 3 day reincarnation timer. If you're going to make is easier for the casuals, you've got to give the top tier players something to work towards. Forcing power gamers to reduce their play to casual status is never a good thing.

2. Honestly, I'm a bit confused about Epic TRing. Perhaps I need more coffee. But, I have no problem with an optional separate TR system that makes you reset EDs. It takes a weekend to max out EDs, and it's sort of the problem I have with endgame. After a weekend worth of play, there's nothing to do in endgame. Again, this has to be optional and completely separate from the TR system we have now so that casuals that do not wish to participate and have their xp reset don't have to even deal with it.

3. The Iconic Hero system is stupid and convoluted. Adding an entire separate TR system for them is even more stupid. Should just have added a couple new classes that act the same as what we have now.

4. So am I to assume that the enhancement pass IS coming with the expansion? You seem to hint at that.

[Loromir]

I think I too read it as you lose non bonded desitinies when you EPIC TR.....I don't think Iconic or Heroic TR will cost you the destinies.

Just like with Heroic TR, there has to be some trade off. When you TR as Heroic, you lose all Pre's, Feats, Enhancements, etc....you start over from scratch with only 2 extra stat points..

I don't really have a problem with losing your unbound epid destinies when you epic TR. I would like to see the option to go into the destiny of your new TR'd class without having to follow the map however.

Just to clrify, It would suck to lose all the destinies you had already grinded out. It forces you to make a decision...do I TR my toon with Max ED's or do I stay put and keep em. Maybe I roll up an Alt and make him my epic completionist.

I have to say, the Epic Past life feats and Epic Completionist feat are going to have to be pretty good to justify grinding out the past lives over again.

[dlsidhe]

This part (in Red) also removes all ED xp gained that is not bonded even on a regular TR the way it reads. That is the part people are not liking at all.

If that's not optional, then that's really, really, really bad. It doesn't effect my playstyle in the bit, but those who have Max'd EDs might not want to give up all their work.

[EazyWeazy]

I like some of the ideas here, but the Epic TR has some glaring holes. Mostly related to people who have supported this game and turbine grinding out destinies since MOTU launched. I'm not one of them, I only have a couple of guys at 25 with more than 2 or 3 max destinies, but even I can see the problem there. Please make sure to consider this and adjust this plan accordingly before you implement.

Thanks,

Dunk

[Gratch]

Wow. This is going to lead to several people quitting DDO. They just ground out a godzillion destiny experience and now if they true reincarnate they lose all that so a player's options are to:
1. never true reincarnate again. This means that the player can not remake a build that becomes washed up or try something different and has overall less reason to play ddo because they can not participate in the new grind.
2. Reincarnate again for some advantages, but you lose all that xp and all the time spent earning the xp was an absolute waste of time. Not to mention reincarante means losing alot of power that the player previously had. They lose all their twists, fate points etc.

Producer Glin this is terrible.

[Response deleted from incorrect info.]

I agree... there should be a means to heroic and/or iconic TR without touching epic destiny xp the way there is now.

[fourrumtest]

not impressed. and have no confidence in the devs to make something that does not suck for the players. when do we get those quality of life fixes? the game is worse than before they were announced.

[oradafu]

Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Utter failure right here. Reasons why:
1) The complete gutting of XP from Challenges
2) The lingering repeat penalty from Epic quests
3) The lingering repeat penalty and degradation of optional XP
4) The completely out of whack ramp up of XP for TR2s and Epic Destinies which causes player burn out
5) The inability to earn XP for "bad" Epic Destinies while using "good" and/or capped Epic Destinies
6) The continued neutered XP for upper Heroics that prevents early Epic players from earning decent XP in those quests, so the Epic XP gets used up quite early
7) The total obvious lack of Epic quests (besides the poor upper heroic XP) that hampers the amount of XP needed to cap
8) Lack of consistent additional sources of XP available in the game, such as Challenges and Monster Manuals
9) The complete neutering of XP in Challenges and Monster Manuals (although MM3 has decent XP, although the changed format sucks)
10) Lack of fixing the existing Monster Manuals, such as getting mobs that don't register to register and making Account Hunters achievable for Mephit, Elves, Halflings, WF and Zombies (although Account hunters gives no XP)
11) Lack of updating of existing ones, such as increasing individual slayers or additioal individual hunters for increased mob population (aka Human) in Monster Manuals...(I'd go further and ask again for the 1XP per kill of mobs for players who own MM)

I'm sure I'm missing other reasons, but these are just a handful of reasons why scrubbing any XP from Epic Desinties is a horrible idea. I can state for a fact that if Epic Desinty XP is scrubbed via TR, you have just killed TRing in the game...and possibly a good portion of your player base will quit.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Epic ED TR is separate from Heroic TR. Heroic TR remains mostly unchanged... except that there's new iconic (subrace) classes to heroic TR. Or you can Epic TR and pickup a heroic TR in the process. Kind of nice to introduce the new iconic and epic new TR's at the same time so that those already at 30 past lives could EPIC TR through the iconics (4 iconics x 3 PL feats) and pickup all 11 ED's of epic TR if they wanted ultra-ultra-ultra completionist.

BTW... what do all ED bonded epic completionists get?

Hmmm... After a few rereads... I'm not crazy mad at this system. I could take my current completionist with max'ed ED's, get enough xp to level 28... epic TR and lose all my ED XP... though my next life would start at Rank55. Then if I wanted to Epic completionist as well... I'd need to run 11 more lives up to L28 (though only one ED has to be maxed each time.... though you'll get 3-4 ED's going up to L28)... which will translate into more heroic or iconic past lives (stack up to 3x) plus the singular past life feat for each ED.

As a caveat for those with maxed ED levels... maybe allow that ED TR to start at L20 instead of rank 55. That seems to be the biggest bubble burst...

From what I read doesn't matter if you heroic or epic tr, ANY KIND of TR makes you lose your destiny xp which is a major major major kick in the teeth to people that have many maxed out destinies or to people that like to max out a destiny or or 3 before TRing again.

Some of us like it this way as it keeps us from over dosing on one or the other.

[Teh_Troll]

I agree with Charononus, losing all destiny xp is a major kick in the teeth. It's hard to imagine any past life feats that would be worth that. And if you do manage to make something worthwhile, you run into game balance issues between people who stack up a bunch of them vs. people who don't have any.

The power from these PL feats would need to be insanely OP for me to consider junking my EDs on ANY of my toons.

I'm talking game-breaking OP.