Opinions on this Shintao please.

[Asanarama]

I’d like some opinions on this shintao build before I spend time playing it. I think it will be helpful to explain why I made the choices I did, but I want to qualify that by stating that I am open to all advice.

I chose dwarf for Dwarven Tactics and the the +2 Con. It’s not that I’m interested in Con in particular, but it helps having any increase to a useful monk attribute, especially considering that I’d rather not spend turbine points on tomes. The plan is to spend PP on a Dex+1 tome for ITWF and to use my favor tome on Str. Hopefully by the time I’d be interested in it, I could also afford a Wis+2 tome to qualify for Void Strike IV, which I think I’ve heard good things about. Dwarves’ bonuses to balance and saves are nice too. Human came in a very close second for the extra feat and healing amplification. The only non-f2p race I have unlocked is warforged.

I really like Cleave in and of itself, so I take it early. It’s also a pre-req. choice for Shintao-I and a pre-req. for Overwhelming Crit. I take each TWF feat as early as possible except for delaying GTWF to take Improved Crit Blunt. I’m not really sure what to take at 24, or if I’ll even get to 24 on my first life.

My highest-level character is 14, so I have some questions about things that happen later than that. I imagine I’ll want to TR into a better monk. Having more build points and stronger unarmed attacks sounds very nice. In addition to obtaining the tokens needed for the TR item, I hear that people also like to obtain equipment and unlock epic destinies before TRing. How good will this character be at doing those things?

The build doesn’t include enhancements or skills. I’m leaning towards Clever Monkey. I’ll max Concentration, keep Balance pretty high, get enough Jump, and maybe put some points into Spot. In addition to finding hidden opponents, does it increase the distance at which you can see non-hidden opponents?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 24 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(20 Monk \ 4 Epic) 
Hit Points: 318
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 15
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 24)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            16                    17
Constitution         16                    16
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               14                    14
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 24)
Balance               7                    15
Bluff                -2                     2
Concentration         7                    11
Diplomacy            -2                     2
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle               -2                     2
Heal                  2                     6
Hide                  3                     7
Intimidate           -2                     2
Jump                  6                    14
Listen                2                     6
Move Silently         3                     7
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair               -1                     3
Search               -1                     5
Spot                  2                     6
Swim                  3                    11
Tumble                4                     8
Use Magic Device     n/a                    2

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)


Level 21 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Monk)


Level 23 (Monk)


Level 24 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder

[Atremus]

Things you need to consider changing (my non-professional personal opinion)

Epic Feats: Improved Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes. Both of these are great bonuses to the Monk

Would you consider points into UMD for scrolls? I have a second life Monk (34 point) Helf that has enough UMD for Teleport scrolls at Level 25 which makes for speedy travel in public places. He's Cleric Dilly, Light Monk that is full Wisdom. (Link below - Atremus)

And are you 100% sure you want to go strength based? If so, drop Stunning Fist since it won't work well (DC is WIS Based)

[Uska]

Things you need to consider changing (my non-professional personal opinion)

Epic Feats: Improved Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes. Both of these are great bonuses to the Monk

Would you consider points into UMD for scrolls? I have a second life Monk (34 point) Helf that has enough UMD for Teleport scrolls at Level 25 which makes for speedy travel in public places. He's Cleric Dilly, Light Monk that is full Wisdom. (Link below - Atremus)

And are you 100% sure you want to go strength based? If so, drop Stunning Fist since it won't work well (DC is WIS Based)

If he does that he will need to pump his wis a lot which isn't a bad idea might need more dex as well

[unbongwah]

FWIW, it looks a lot like my Shintao dwarf, who is supposed to be a Void IV / Wind-Earth stance hate-tank:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Female
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    16
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               16                    26
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Lifting the Veil
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Shintao Monk I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Shintao Monk II
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Shintao Monk III
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Master of the Sea

Epic feats: Imp Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes, as Atremus suggests.

The big drawback to Void Strike IV is it costs almost half your APs to get it, so it really limits your enh options; plus you need 3 base stats to be at least 16 and 1 at least 18 so you can add the necessary stances.

Unfortunately, I'm still leveling her, so I couldn't tell you how she performs in epics. But I'm hopeful that the Enhancement overhaul to dwarves and Shintao will make her an even more awesome hate-tanking punching machine (knock on wood)!

[Soulfurnace]

Things you need to consider changing (my non-professional personal opinion)

Epic Feats: Improved Martial Arts and Vorpal Strikes. Both of these are great bonuses to the Monk

Would you consider points into UMD for scrolls? I have a second life Monk (34 point) Helf that has enough UMD for Teleport scrolls at Level 25 which makes for speedy travel in public places. He's Cleric Dilly, Light Monk that is full Wisdom. (Link below - Atremus)

And are you 100% sure you want to go strength based? If so, drop Stunning Fist since it won't work well (DC is WIS Based)

Except.. stunning fist is required (no choice) for Shintao I.
Anyway, I've never played a str based monk, never saw the fun in it. That's just me, but w/e.
From my wis-based monk perspective, I see it as being a typical (more or less) build. I'd consider swapping improved sunder out, but that's because things never lived long enough for it to matter (and my DC was high enough)

And seeming you mentioned gear/destinies, any build (ANY) can get those on eHard. My sorc managed to solo some eHard using no spells (aside from bufsf/reconstruct) using an Oathblade... with 17 str.
For destinies, don't run Impossible Demands 3 times. Twice is okay (irrc), then just farm that at level 25 (not earlier). It's mindnumbing, but simple and easy ED xp.

[Asanarama]

Thanks for the help everyone.

I didn’t notice either of those epic feats. I’ll take Imp. Martial Arts for sure. Vorpal Strikes depends on if I decide to switch to Wis.

I didn’t think I’d be able to get UMD high enough to be useful on a pure monk. How many ranks do you need to make it useful? Atremus, the link to your monk only shows your character sheet at level 25 with equipment. What did you do to get UMD high enough? At what point are Jump and Balance high enough to start putting points into UMD instead?

I was hoping that Stunning Fist would work reasonably well without too much Wis. because of the half character level boost to its DC and Dwarven Tactics. It sounds like that is not the case. I guess that means that Stunning Blow for a non-Str. character is even worse, because it doesn’t have that half character level boost.

Now I’m more inclined to take either Stunning Fists for Wis.-based or Stunning Blow for Str.-based, but not both, instead taking Improved Sunder for reducing opponents’ Fortitude Save before trying to stun them.

The wiki says that Stunning Blow doesn’t work on opponents with red or purple names. It doesn’t say that about Stunning Fist. Does Stunning Fist actually work on more opponents?

Wis.-based is really sounding better. I’m going to reroll now. I’m still going to get Cleave early, so I don’t have to worry about Improved Sunder vs. 2nd Stun until level 6—I only have level 4 vet status.

[Uska]

No stunning fists doesn't work on red or purple either. Not good at posting builds but I have found I prefer Wis monks over str, stunning fist works enough to make it worth while and vorpal strikes is nice to have. I prefer half-elf or human for my monks personally and cant wait to Tr my main again back to monk have decided that I dont want completionist and will just have 3 monk, 2 paladin and 1 ranger past life and just stick with monk will be human and wis based.

[Atremus]

Except.. stunning fist is required (no choice) for Shintao I.

Doh, thanks for pointing that out.

[unbongwah]

Anyway, I've never played a str based monk, never saw the fun in it. That's just me, but w/e.

STR monks are fine, they just don't seem...well...monk-y enough to me. Leave the raw DPS to the barbs of the world; monks should have more style. Getting to add Vorpal Strikes as a WIS monk is just icing on the cake.

I was hoping that Stunning Fist would work reasonably well without too much Wis. because of the half character level boost to its DC and Dwarven Tactics. It sounds like that is not the case. I guess that means that Stunning Blow for a non-Str. character is even worse, because it doesn’t have that half character level boost.

While that's true, dwarven Tactics and Stunning property will boost S.Blow as well as S.Fist. I like having both so if S.Fist fails, I can try again with S.Blow while S.Fist is still on cooldown, even if my S.Blow DCs are lower.

But another option would be to drop S.Blow and swap in Imp Sunder; the nice thing about it is the Fortitude debuff always procs even if the target makes its save, so it can help you soften up targets for S.Fist.

The wiki says that Stunning Blow doesn’t work on opponents with red or purple names. It doesn’t say that about Stunning Fist. Does Stunning Fist actually work on more opponents?

In general, bosses are immune to all CC effects. OTOH, they are not immune to all debuffs; so here again Imp Sunder can be useful.

[Atremus]

Sorry for multiple posts but I keep getting logged out.

My monk uses Improved Sunder / Stunning fist to immobilize the monster, then the beat down begins. Stunned mobs take extra damage so landing a stun is a good boost to the monk DPS as well. I can see the fallback on Stunning Blow, but where do you fit it in Feat wise?


Toughness
PA
The 3 TWF feats
IC Blunt
Stunning Fist
Improved Sunder
IMA
Vorpal

Oh and my UMD breakdown:

7 CHA bonus
11 skill ranks
3 UMD item (spare hand)
1 MOTU mask
2 Good Luck
4 GH
5 Epic Skills

31 UMD

If I fail a teleport, I fire off the fire/light/fire finisher for a short buff and off I teleport

[Grubbby]

...
I guess that means that Stunning Blow for a non-Str. Character is even worse, because it doesn’t have that half character level boost.
...

Remember that you get Ku Kan Doh at 18, so you have a second stun coming. Ku Kan Doh is pretty effective with just a CHA item, or a CHA augment in a slot.

EDIT And yes, drop stunning blow if you are going wis focused. Its tough for a pure monk to get enough str to support stunning blow even on a str build.

[unbongwah]

I can see the fallback on Stunning Blow, but where do you fit it in Feat wise?


Toughness
PA
The 3 TWF feats
IC Blunt
Stunning Fist
Improved Sunder
IMA
Vorpal

Every pure monk gets 12 feats (7 base + 3 monk bonus + 2 epic); 13 if human. I count 10 feats in your list, so adding Stunning Blow is one option; taking both Cleaves is another.

[Atremus]

Every pure monk gets 12 feats (7 base + 3 monk bonus + 2 epic); 13 if human. I count 10 feats in your list, so adding Stunning Blow is one option; taking both Cleaves is another.

Oh true. My HElf has PL Monk and Cleave which I forgot to include.

[AlmGhandi]

My monks have been woefully unimpressed with VOID IV