Almost ready to TR my rogue - many questions.. :)

[RoguemcStabby]

I'm about ready to TR my 28 pt build first life rogue. Right now I am capped and run a lot of epic content and raids.
Had this toon for awhile as well, so have a lot of gear for leveling and some really nice endgame gear.

questions in bold for those who don't want to read my ramblings

Couple things:

1. I plan on pure rogue assassin.
2. I am working towards a 4/2/1 tier twist capability
3. Good with traps and sneak attack damage.. naturally not so much when not in sneak attack.
4. Assassinate DC could be much better (45-48 depending on ED & gear slotting).
5. fine with using heal and res scrolls at no fail (with GH)
6. Assume a mix of +2 and +3 tomes

Greensteel made:
Rad2 rapier
(should I consider making anything else? I'm about to get an essence for 20th shroud run)
Some thoughts: considering a min2 cloak, maybe a +45 hp item (no idea what recipes to consider)

Stat Placement:
I made my first based off a dark assasin build that is a little obsolete (revisiting paths thread)

How much Dex do I really need?
this much I know:
effective two-weapon fighting requires at least 17 base dex. (to get all the feats)
Dex improves a rogues ability TO-HIT on finesse builds, but not damage
Reflex saves are affected by dex

More STR means more damage up front, but does it help with sneak attack?


Beyond all those questions, I'm trying to find a reasonable INT to shoot for that won't kill me while leveling (by dumping another stat). What are some reasonable DC's to shoot for in order to more or less land assassinates more frequently in EH content? EE content?


Thx

[orobold]

Greensteel made:
Rad2 rapier
(should I consider making anything else? I'm about to get an essence for 20th shroud run)
Some thoughts: considering a min2 cloak, maybe a +45 hp item (no idea what recipes to consider)

for leveling purposes id suggest lit2 if u can afford the mats. Also the cove shortsword or the challenge khopesh of water maybe.
For the 45hp gs item id suggest triple air, wich is expensive but gives perma blur an displacement clickie. Rad2 item is nice too, more chance to blind target (on being hit) and also deals light dmg.

How much Dex do I really need?[/B]

including tomes and stat lvl ups, 17 for gtwf and 21 to the improved sneak attack epic feat (+3d6)

More STR means more damage up front, but does it help with sneak attack?[/B]

Im not 100% positive on this but id say no, SA is independent

[RoguemcStabby]

...including tomes and stat lvl ups, 17 for gtwf and 21 to the improved sneak attack epic feat (+3d6)


So starting with 14 DEX, a +3 stat tome and putting 4 points into DEX while leveling (which is most of them), i should be set with +10 or +11 DEX total item bonuses at endgame? This leaves 2 points for INT. The way I have it figured, the rogue would have 32 Dex at 25 with items, etc.

[SSFWEl]

I'm about ready to TR my 28 pt build first life rogue. Right now I am capped and run a lot of epic content and raids.
Had this toon for awhile as well, so have a lot of gear for leveling and some really nice endgame gear.

questions in bold for those who don't want to read my ramblings

Greensteel made:
Rad2 rapier
(should I consider making anything else? I'm about to get an essence for 20th shroud run)
Some thoughts: considering a min2 cloak, maybe a +45 hp item (no idea what recipes to consider)


How much Dex do I really need?
this much I know:
effective two-weapon fighting requires at least 17 base dex. (to get all the feats)
Dex improves a rogues ability TO-HIT on finesse builds, but not damage
Reflex saves are affected by dex

More STR means more damage up front, but does it help with sneak attack?


Beyond all those questions, I'm trying to find a reasonable INT to shoot for that won't kill me while leveling (by dumping another stat). What are some reasonable DC's to shoot for in order to more or less land assassinates more frequently in EH content? EE content?


Thx

1. Indeed str does not increase SA. However, it will increase damage. (i.e. the first number on the left on the floaty numbers. Second one is SA.) I wont go into the int vs dex vs str based argument here. you are probably familiar with them.

2. IMHO, all you need is the RadII, an excellent wep. Making another double shard wep is expensive and the gain will be minimal. A single shard HP item with the Displacement clicky is great (either int or dex skills). Save your shards and mats for later, when you have a more final gear layout and your "dang, now I need to remake my HP item into a diff slot!" epiphany.

Otherwise you seem to know what you are about

[Milrich]

Having just been through my rogue life, I would advise that you try to max intelligence mainly and ignore almost everything else (by ignoring i mean not starting with more than 14 stat points in it and dont put level up points there either). The main reason for this is that the rogue class is a specialist who truly only excels at dealing massive amounts of dps through sneak attack and assasinate. Especially at higher levels, a superior assasinate DC means that you can instakill 2 mobs per minute and after level 20, if in shadowdancer destiny (which is the most likely one you'll be into), you can charm one mob per 2 minutes with shadow manipulation and also instakill 5 mobs per 2 minutes with consume (though i havent checked efficiency of this last one). All these will make you very powerful in epics if you adapt your playstyle accordingly (i.e. use stealth and let aggro to be established towards someone else before getting into position and strike with the above). But it's crucial that you raise your DC through intelligence and items, otherwise all these won't proc enough for it to worth.

I'll try to explain why in my opinion it's not worth to level other stats than INT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STR: affects to-hit and damage
It seems obvious that it's the most important stat for a melee but in rogue's case it's not, because rogue is not a typical melee but rather a sneak attack dps. For example while 6 more points into str will give you +3 to hit and damage, the damage is negligible compared to your sneak attack, while your to-hit will be high enough to hit almost everything when sneak attacking (through assasin enhancements). By the time you cap you should be sneak attacking most of the time, with blind weapons, improved deception item and bluff skill. I would suggest a starting 14 which can stay there until cap (using a +6 item as soon as you can).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEX: you need enough starting DEX to reach 17 with tomes and apply for full TWF line. Otherwise it's not useful (rogues have decent reflex save by default, in cases you need more you can use uncanny dodge and +5 item, i wouldnt recommend going finesse either for assasin). You have the option to aim for 21 for the epic sneak attack feat (+3d6 sneak damage) but it will require sacrificing stat points, which i wouldnt take off INT. But it's your call.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CON: HP of course
A starting 14 is a minimum for everyone. As a rogue you'll be straggling with few HP, still raising CON to gain HP is not worth so much in my opinion. E.g. a 16 CON will give you few more HP than a 14 CON (20 at level 20 i believe), while applying for epic toughness (21 CON) will require that you drain many points into CON if you dont have a +4/5 tome (those points can make the difference on assasination DC). There is some debate on this subject and most people prefer building high HP toons rather than maxing DCs. I personally take the risk of lower HP to max instakill effectiveness, though this means that you die a bit more often. But although you may die more, you'll be a lot more useful in epic elites and in general. For example my dc maxed rogue typically is on the top 2 of kill counts and can assasinate/charm 70-80% of the time in epic elites. On the other hand he dies easily (can be one shotted in EEs) but I have adapted my playstyle accordingly, i.e. get in sneak mode, wait for the aggro to settle before sneaking on the back of mobs, assasinate, charm, use dodge 100% ability to safely fight for 10-15 seconds, get away, sneak again and repeat.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INT: get it as high as you can, this is your superweapon, assasinate ftw
I didnt start with 18 btw but with 16, still put all level up points into it (except one that i put into str after a discussion with a friend about not dumping str too much, but i regret it :P)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WIS: not really useful for a rogue, your will save will be awful anyway and higher WIS won't save it, the related skills can be raised enough without it as well with the extra points in int
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHA: it's worth to invest a bit in CHA for UMD . How much depends on your umd gear, you'll finally want to have 100% success on heal scrolls. I started with 14 for this and at cap i ended up having 110-120% success so you can start with less. Need to calculate the exact number if you're short on points or want to put more somewhere else

[RoguemcStabby]

I think my biggest concern with DEX/STR was being able to hit a boss/mob... I didn't want to pump DEX up too much if I could save enhancement points and level-up placement in something more useful (esp. for more INT).


I was thinking of starting with 8 CHA and eating a +4 tome (which I pulled from a raid end reward list).
I have epic treasure hunter tier 3 which is +3 and a Flameward which is +6 and they both stack for +9, with GH that's +13 skill burst +4 when I need it, so +17 bottom line. I haven't had any scroll failure issues except when getting neg levels or a death penalty.


I know future enhancements lead me to believe that there will be dex-to-damage on finesse weapons in the future, so I'm keeping that in the back of my mind.


My endgame gear looks something like this: (I have most of this and should be able to acquire the rest somehow)

armor - flawless black dragonscale with +35 hp augment, also have EH whisperchain
eyes - EE Dreamvisor
Neck - EH Jorgundl's collar with deathblock augment
Cloak - EH Jeweled cloak -> +2 Int , (maybe heavy fort augment here)
Belt - EH Daggertooth Belt (CON +7, CON +2)
gloves - purple Dragon Gauntlets, (+7 STR, +2con, healing amp)
Boots - EH Treads of falling shadow (+10 dex)
bracers - EH bracers of the Twisting Shade
Head - obviously need to work out a black dragon helmet of some sort.

trinkets - PLIS, planar focus of subterfuge +8 int, epic treasure hunter spyglass

Rings (I WANT lol) Seal of house avithoul, either +2 or +7 wis), EE ring of shadows

Weapons: situational, obviously, but I do not have any planar conflux weapons which makes me think the planar focus item is mostly useless for now.


So as you can see I've thought some of this out but am missing a few pieces to the puzzle. lol..

[RoguemcStabby]

If I go INT based, it'll probably look like this.. although I'm a little dubious about the usefulness of powerattack... I kinda hate losing the 3d6 SA dice, because although I'm assassinating a lot, I am more often than not hacking away at a boss or a sturdy mob... plus I can boost INT through an ED....

Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=52740

Rogue 20
Female Human - True Neutral
________________________________________________________________

PAST LIVES SELECTED:
Rogue (1)
Tomes Recorded: STR: +2, DEX: +3, CON: +3, INT: +3,
WIS: +2, CHA: +3
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Female Human
Alignment Selected: True Neutral
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 13, DEX: 14, CON: 16, INT: 17
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Bluff +4 (4),
Diplomacy +3 (3), Disable Device +4 (4), Haggle +4 (4),
Hide +4 (4), Jump +4 (4), Move Silently +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4),
Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +1 (1), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Power Attack
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 2:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5), Bluff +1 (5),
Diplomacy +1 (4), Disable Device +1 (5), Haggle +1 (5),
Hide +1 (5), Jump +1 (5), Move Silently +1 (5), Open Lock +1 (5),
Search +1 (5), Spot +1 (5), UMD +1 (5)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 3:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 3)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6), Bluff +1 (6),
Diplomacy +2 (6), Disable Device +1 (6), Haggle +1 (6),
Hide +1 (6), Jump +1 (6), Move Silently +1 (6), Open Lock +1 (6),
Search +1 (6), Spot +1 (6), UMD +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Two Weapon Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 4:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 4)
Abilities Raised: INT: 19
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (7), Bluff +1 (7),
Diplomacy +1 (7), Disable Device +1 (7), Haggle +1 (7),
Hide +1 (7), Jump +1 (7), Move Silently +1 (7), Open Lock +1 (7),
Search +1 (7), Spot +1 (7), Tumble +1 (2), UMD +1 (7)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 5:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 5)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (8), Bluff +1 (8),
Diplomacy +1 (8), Disable Device +1 (8), Haggle +1 (8),
Hide +1 (8), Jump +1 (8), Move Silently +1 (8), Open Lock +1 (8),
Search +1 (8), Spot +1 (8), Tumble +1 (3), UMD +1 (8)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 6:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 6)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (9), Bluff +1 (9),
Diplomacy +1 (9), Disable Device +1 (9), Haggle +1 (9),
Hide +1 (9), Jump +1 (9), Move Silently +1 (9), Open Lock +1 (9),
Spot +1 (9), Tumble +2 (5), UMD +1 (9)
Feats Selected: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 7:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 7)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (10), Bluff +1 (10),
Diplomacy +1 (10), Disable Device +1 (10), Haggle +1 (10),
Hide +1 (10), Jump +1 (10), Move Silently +1 (10),
Open Lock +1 (10), Search +2 (10), Spot +1 (10), Tumble +1 (6),
UMD +1 (10)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 8:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 8)
Abilities Raised: INT: 21
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (11), Bluff +1 (11),
Diplomacy +1 (11), Disable Device +1 (11), Haggle +1 (11),
Hide +1 (11), Jump +1 (11), Move Silently +1 (11),
Open Lock +1 (11), Search +1 (11), Spot +1 (11), Tumble +2 (8),
UMD +1 (11)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 9:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 9)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (12), Bluff +1 (12),
Diplomacy +1 (12), Disable Device +1 (12), Haggle +1 (12),
Hide +1 (12), Jump +1 (12), Move Silently +1 (12),
Open Lock +1 (12), Search +1 (12), Spot +1 (12), Tumble +2 (10),
UMD +1 (12)
Feats Selected: Precision
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 10:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 10)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (13), Bluff +1 (13),
Diplomacy +1 (13), Disable Device +1 (13), Haggle +1 (13),
Hide +1 (13), Jump +1 (13), Move Silently +1 (13),
Open Lock +1 (13), Search +1 (13), Spot +1 (13), Tumble +2 (12),
UMD +1 (13)
Feats Selected: Improved Evasion
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 11:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 11)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (14), Bluff +1 (14),
Diplomacy +1 (14), Disable Device +1 (14), Haggle +1 (14),
Hide +1 (14), Jump +1 (14), Move Silently +1 (14),
Open Lock +1 (14), Search +1 (14), Spot +1 (14), Swim +1 (1),
Tumble +2 (14), UMD +1 (14)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 12:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 12)
Abilities Raised: INT: 23
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (15), Bluff +1 (15),
Diplomacy +1 (15), Disable Device +1 (15), Haggle +1 (15),
Hide +1 (15), Jump +1 (15), Move Silently +1 (15),
Open Lock +1 (15), Search +1 (15), Spot +1 (15), Swim +2 (3),
Tumble +1 (15), UMD +1 (15)
Feats Selected: Improved Critical (Piercing)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 13:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 13)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (16), Bluff +1 (16),
Diplomacy +1 (16), Disable Device +1 (16), Haggle +1 (16),
Hide +1 (16), Jump +1 (16), Move Silently +1 (16),
Open Lock +1 (16), Search +1 (16), Spot +1 (16), Swim +2 (5),
Tumble +1 (16), UMD +1 (16)
Feats Selected: Opportunist
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 14:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 14)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (17), Bluff +1 (17),
Diplomacy +1 (17), Disable Device +1 (17), Haggle +1 (17),
Hide +1 (17), Jump +1 (17), Move Silently +1 (17),
Open Lock +1 (17), Search +1 (17), Spot +1 (17), Swim +2 (7),
Tumble +1 (17), UMD +1 (17)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 15:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 15)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (18), Bluff +1 (18),
Diplomacy +1 (18), Disable Device +1 (18), Haggle +1 (18),
Hide +1 (18), Jump +1 (18), Move Silently +1 (18),
Open Lock +1 (18), Search +1 (18), Spot +1 (18), Swim +2 (9),
Tumble +1 (18), UMD +1 (18)
Feats Selected: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 16:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 16)
Abilities Raised: INT: 24
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (19), Bluff +1 (19),
Diplomacy +1 (19), Disable Device +1 (19), Haggle +1 (19),
Hide +1 (19), Jump +1 (19), Move Silently +1 (19),
Open Lock +1 (19), Search +1 (19), Spot +1 (19), Swim +3 (12),
Tumble +1 (19), UMD +1 (19)
Feats Selected: Skill Mastery
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 17:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 17)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (20), Bluff +1 (20),
Diplomacy +1 (20), Disable Device +1 (20), Haggle +1 (20),
Hide +1 (20), Jump +1 (20), Move Silently +1 (20),
Open Lock +1 (20), Search +1 (20), Spot +1 (20), Swim +3 (15),
Tumble +1 (20), UMD +1 (20)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 18:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 18)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (21), Bluff +1 (21),
Diplomacy +1 (21), Disable Device +1 (21), Haggle +1 (21),
Hide +1 (21), Jump +1 (21), Move Silently +1 (21),
Open Lock +1 (21), Search +1 (21), Spot +1 (21), Swim +3 (18),
Tumble +1 (21), UMD +1 (21)
Feats Selected: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 19:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 19)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (22), Bluff +1 (22),
Diplomacy +1 (22), Disable Device +1 (22), Haggle +1 (22),
Hide +1 (22), Jump +1 (22), Move Silently +1 (22),
Open Lock +1 (22), Search +1 (22), Spot +1 (22), Swim +3 (21),
Tumble +1 (22), UMD +1 (22)
Feats Selected: Skill Mastery
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 20:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 20)
Abilities Raised: INT: 25
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (23), Bluff +1 (23), Diplomacy +1 (23), Disable Device +1 (23), Haggle +1 (23), Hide +1 (23), Intimidate +1 (1), Jump +1 (23), Move Silently +1 (23), Open Lock +1 (23), Search +1 (23), Spot +1 (23), Swim +2 (23), Tumble +1 (23), UMD +1 (23)

[floydpepper]

I TRd one of my rogues with 2 triple positive weapons and one without them; unless you're in a hurry for some reason craft a pair of them before you TR (presuming you go 2wf rogue), as those make fighting undead so much easier.

Persnally I'd go for light maces, as those bypass skeleton/lich DR and are finessable; also the base damage of the weapon isn't all that important with +5 magic +6d6 greater disruption +2d6 holy +1d6 good damage.

[SSFWEl]

OK I see I have no choice.

\SNIP
Especially at higher levels, a superior assasinate DC means that you can instakill 2 mobs per minute and after level 20, if in shadowdancer destiny (which is the most likely one you'll be into), you can charm one mob per 2 minutes with shadow manipulation and also instakill 5 mobs per 2 minutes with consume (though i havent checked efficiency of this last one). SNIP

1. Worthless for bosses. Really the only thing that matters at endgame.
2. Unless you gimp yourself completely to get an insanely high DC, you will be failing lots anyway.

I'll try to explain why in my opinion it's not worth to level other stats than INT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STR: affects to-hit and damage
SNIP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No we are not typical. We have SA.
No, it's not negligible at all. if you concentrate on your strength, it adds up and that first number, while never reaching the second number, is no longer inconsequential.


DEX: you need enough starting DEX to reach 17 with tomes and apply for full TWF line. Otherwise it's not useful (rogues have decent reflex save by default, in cases you need more you can use uncanny dodge and +5 item, i wouldnt recommend going finesse either for assasin). You have the option to aim for 21 for the epic sneak attack feat (+3d6 sneak damage) but it will require sacrificing stat points, which i wouldnt take off INT. But it's your call.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dex based is obsolete. Fun, with insane reflex, but now with twists, you can twist more reflex as needed. No argument there.

CON: HP of course
SNIP
I personally take the risk of lower HP to max instakill effectiveness, though this means that you die a bit more often. But although you may die more, you'll be a lot more useful in epic elites and in general.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disagree. A rogue with very high DPS is worth more than a rogue with great assassinate. See above for bosses. High kill counts don't mean much. No one cares about trash.

INT: get it as high as you can, this is your superweapon, assasinate ftw
I didnt start with 18 btw but with 16, still put all level up points into it (except one that i put into str after a discussion with a friend about not dumping str too much, but i regret it :P)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMHO the super weapon is SA. Assassinate is fun and cool and useful, but the super weapon, the reason rogues have high DPS is SA. i.e. base attack PLUS sneak atack.

WIS: not really useful for a rogue, your will save will be awful anyway and higher WIS won't save it, the related skills can be raised enough without it as well with the extra points in int

Yes you can dump this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHA: it's worth to invest a bit in CHA for UMD . How much depends on your umd gear, you'll finally want to have 100% success on heal scrolls. I started with 14 for this and at cap i ended up having 110-120% success so you can start with less. Need to calculate the exact number if you're short on points or want to put more somewhere else

Dump too. Get gear. Maybe start with 10 or 12, depends on your ability points.

ED? Fury. With the fast speed in TWF, I am always getting the charges up before the 5 min are up. Fury gives you HP,

[Milrich]

1. Worthless for bosses. Really the only thing that matters at endgame.
2. Unless you gimp yourself completely to get an insanely high DC, you will be failing lots anyway.


1. This is true for everything non-EE. On epic elite though, the trash mobs are no longer auto-killed. As for bosses, with armor piercing item and shadowdancer abilities you can achieve very good sneak attack percentages on your attacks. So boss fights basically become a sneak-attack dominated dps, where the contribution of STR is secondary.
2. As I tried to explain in previous post, in rogue's case you do not gimp yourself in any way by dumping the other stats in favor of INT. Sacrificing a 10% of dps from STR in favor of 40% boost in assasination success is worth the cost imo


No, it's not negligible at all. if you concentrate on your strength, it adds up and that first number, while never reaching the second number, is no longer inconsequential.


What I'm trying to say is that every point of STR spent gives you a very small boost to dps (1 damage on both hands). While every point spent on INT gives you a very large benefit towards your instakill and single-target CC ability. I wouldn't support going full assasinate if rogue was poor dps otherwise. But since rogues have sneak attack so they're good dps anyway, it's preferable in my opinion to be a good dps and an excellent instakiller than just a good dps with maybe 10-20% more dps.


IMHO the super weapon is SA. Assassinate is fun and cool and useful, but the super weapon, the reason rogues have high DPS is SA. i.e. base attack PLUS sneak attack.


No disagreement here. Sneak attack is your main way to kill stuff. Assasinate is an additional good instakill.


Dump too. Get gear. Maybe start with 10 or 12, depends on your ability points.

You're right. If you don't mind umd failures during levelling, you can probably even start with 8 and have 100% at level 25 with the right gear.

[SSFWEl]

1. This is true for everything non-EE. On epic elite though, the trash mobs are no longer auto-killed. SNIP
2. As I tried to explain in previous post, in rogue's case you do not gimp yourself in any way by dumping the other stats in favor of INT. Sacrificing a 10% of dps from STR in favor of 40% boost in assasination success is worth the cost imo
.

Hmmm.
I see your point, I am just not convinced that:
a. You can get a viable DC in EE. I might need to try this after the pass to see if indeed it helps the grp.
b. you are not missing out on crit multipliers by losing str. crits can REALLY add up.

[RoguemcStabby]

Hmmm.
I see your point, I am just not convinced that:
a. You can get a viable DC in EE. I might need to try this after the pass to see if indeed it helps the grp.
b. you are not missing out on crit multipliers by losing str. crits can REALLY add up.

I am assuming you mean the damage based on the STR mod added onto the base crit damage?

I wanted to stray from the dex-vs-int-vs-str based conversation anyway.. but I think it's a good one to have as long as people aren't flaming each other (but that can be fun to watch ).

Also, I do not want to give up my extensive collection of daggers, shortswords and rapiers, so am ruling out khopeshs.


One thing to note -> the new enhancements APPEAR to have a dex-to-damage on finesse weapons.. which may be important to consider..

[RoguemcStabby]

So for anyone still paying attention to this thread.. based on the previous discussion, this is what I'm considering as a place to start for a leveling plan.

I'm not sure how to calculate the DC of assassinate, and this does not include any bonus from gear.

Going for the epic sneak attack feat and might take epic toughness (most likely).

I took two skill mastery, but would consider slippery mind if someone could convince me it's not a bad idea (although I am skeptical). I ignored crippling strike because it doesn't seem useful in epic as far as I can tell.

- I might try to go for max Scroll/Wand Effectiveness and max out faster sneaking (if I haven't done it in the build below at level 20.

- I haven't considered skill "caps" ie: jump/tumble/swim, just maxed out stuff and dumped the points in other skills

Finally, I'll put the last epic ability point into INT.

Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=52775

Rogue 20
Female Human - True Neutral
________________________________________________________________

PAST LIVES SELECTED:
Rogue (1)
Tomes Recorded: STR: +2, DEX: +3, CON: +3, INT: +3,
WIS: +2, CHA: +4
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Female Human
Alignment Selected: True Neutral
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 14, DEX: 16, CON: 15, INT: 16
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Bluff +4 (4),
Diplomacy +3 (3), Disable Device +4 (4), Haggle +4 (4),
Hide +4 (4), Jump +4 (4), Move Silently +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4),
Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +1 (1), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I,
Human Versatility I, Rogue Damage Boost I, Rogue Haste Boost I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 2:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (5), Bluff +1 (5),
Diplomacy +1 (4), Disable Device +1 (5), Haggle +1 (5),
Hide +1 (5), Jump +1 (5), Move Silently +1 (5), Open Lock +1 (5),
Search +1 (5), Spot +1 (5), UMD +1 (5)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I,
Human Improved Recovery I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 3:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 3)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (6), Bluff +1 (6),
Diplomacy +1 (5), Disable Device +1 (6), Haggle +1 (6),
Hide +1 (6), Jump +1 (6), Move Silently +1 (6), Open Lock +1 (6),
Search +1 (6), Spot +1 (6), UMD +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancements Selected: Racial Toughness I, Improved Disable Device I,
Improved Search I, Improved Spot I, Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 4:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 4)
Abilities Raised: INT: 18
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (7), Bluff +1 (7),
Diplomacy +2 (7), Disable Device +1 (7), Haggle +1 (7),
Hide +1 (7), Jump +1 (7), Move Silently +1 (7), Open Lock +1 (7),
Search +1 (7), Spot +1 (7), UMD +1 (7)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II,
Human Versatility II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 5:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 5)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (8), Bluff +1 (8),
Diplomacy +1 (8), Disable Device +1 (8), Haggle +1 (8),
Hide +1 (8), Jump +1 (8), Move Silently +1 (8), Open Lock +1 (8),
Search +1 (8), Spot +1 (8), Tumble +1 (2), UMD +1 (8)
Enhancements Selected: Improved Disable Device II,
Improved Search II, Rogue Damage Boost II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 6:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 6)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (9), Bluff +1 (9),
Diplomacy +1 (9), Disable Device +1 (9), Haggle +1 (9),
Hide +1 (9), Jump +1 (9), Move Silently +1 (9), Open Lock +1 (9),
Search +1 (9), Spot +1 (9), Tumble +1 (3), UMD +1 (9)
Feats Selected: Past Life (Sneak of Shadows)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II,
Rogue Haste Boost II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 7:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 7)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (10), Bluff +1 (10),
Diplomacy +1 (10), Disable Device +1 (10), Haggle +1 (10),
Hide +1 (10), Jump +1 (10), Move Silently +1 (10),
Open Lock +1 (10), Search +1 (10), Spot +1 (10), Tumble +1 (4),
UMD +1 (10)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I,
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 8:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 8)
Abilities Raised: INT: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (11), Bluff +1 (11),
Diplomacy +1 (11), Disable Device +1 (11), Haggle +1 (11),
Hide +1 (11), Jump +1 (11), Move Silently +1 (11),
Open Lock +1 (11), Search +1 (11), Spot +1 (11), Tumble +2 (6),
UMD +1 (11)
Enhancements Selected: Improved Hide I, Improved Move Silently I,
Improved Hide II, Improved Move Silently II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 9:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 9)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (12), Bluff +1 (12),
Diplomacy +1 (12), Disable Device +1 (12), Haggle +1 (12),
Hide +1 (12), Jump +1 (12), Move Silently +1 (12),
Open Lock +1 (12), Search +1 (12), Spot +1 (12), Tumble +2 (8),
UMD +1 (12)
Feats Selected: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Assassin I, Improved Spot II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 10:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 10)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (13), Bluff +1 (13),
Diplomacy +1 (13), Disable Device +1 (13), Haggle +1 (13),
Hide +1 (13), Jump +1 (13), Move Silently +1 (13),
Open Lock +1 (13), Search +1 (13), Spot +1 (13), Tumble +2 (10),
UMD +1 (13)
Feats Selected: Improved Evasion
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 11:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 11)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (14), Bluff +1 (14),
Diplomacy +1 (14), Disable Device +1 (14), Haggle +1 (14),
Hide +1 (14), Jump +1 (14), Move Silently +1 (14),
Open Lock +1 (14), Search +1 (14), Spot +1 (14), Tumble +2 (12),
UMD +1 (14)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III,
Racial Toughness II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 12:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 12)
Abilities Raised: INT: 22
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (15), Bluff +1 (15),
Diplomacy +1 (15), Disable Device +1 (15), Haggle +1 (15),
Hide +1 (15), Jump +1 (15), Move Silently +1 (15),
Open Lock +1 (15), Search +1 (15), Spot +1 (15), Tumble +3 (15),
UMD +1 (15)
Feats Selected: Improved Critical (Piercing)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Assassin II, Rogue Faster Sneaking I,
Improved Spot III
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 13:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 13)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (16), Bluff +1 (16),
Diplomacy +1 (16), Disable Device +1 (16), Haggle +1 (16),
Hide +1 (16), Jump +1 (16), Move Silently +1 (16),
Open Lock +1 (16), Search +1 (16), Spot +1 (16), Swim +2 (2),
Tumble +1 (16), UMD +1 (16)
Feats Selected: Opportunist
Enhancements Selected: Human Versatility III, Improved Spot IV
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 14:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 14)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (17), Bluff +1 (17),
Diplomacy +1 (17), Disable Device +1 (17), Haggle +1 (17),
Hide +1 (17), Jump +1 (17), Move Silently +1 (17),
Open Lock +1 (17), Search +1 (17), Spot +1 (17), Swim +2 (4),
Tumble +1 (17), UMD +1 (17)
Enhancements Selected: Human Versatility IV
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 15:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 15)
(Applied Past Life Tome Bonuses)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (18), Bluff +1 (18),
Diplomacy +1 (18), Disable Device +1 (18), Haggle +1 (18),
Hide +1 (18), Jump +1 (18), Move Silently +1 (18),
Open Lock +1 (18), Search +1 (18), Spot +1 (18), Swim +2 (6),
Tumble +1 (18), UMD +1 (18)
Feats Selected: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 16:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 16)
Abilities Raised: DEX: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (19), Bluff +1 (19),
Diplomacy +1 (19), Disable Device +1 (19), Haggle +1 (19),
Hide +1 (19), Jump +1 (19), Move Silently +1 (19),
Open Lock +1 (19), Search +1 (19), Spot +1 (19), Swim +2 (8),
Tumble +1 (19), UMD +1 (19)
Feats Selected: Skill Mastery
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 17:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 17)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (20), Bluff +1 (20),
Diplomacy +1 (20), Disable Device +1 (20), Haggle +1 (20),
Hide +1 (20), Jump +1 (20), Move Silently +1 (20),
Open Lock +1 (20), Search +1 (20), Spot +1 (20), Swim +2 (10),
Tumble +1 (20), UMD +1 (20)
Enhancements Selected: Human Adaptability Dexterity I,
Rogue Faster Sneaking II
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 18:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 18)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (21), Bluff +1 (21),
Diplomacy +1 (21), Disable Device +1 (21), Haggle +1 (21),
Hide +1 (21), Jump +1 (21), Move Silently +1 (21),
Open Lock +1 (21), Search +1 (21), Spot +1 (21), Swim +2 (12),
Tumble +1 (21), UMD +1 (21)
Feats Selected: Precision
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Assassin III
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 19:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 19)
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (22), Bluff +1 (22),
Diplomacy +1 (22), Disable Device +1 (22), Haggle +1 (22),
Hide +1 (22), Jump +1 (22), Move Silently +1 (22),
Open Lock +1 (22), Search +1 (22), Spot +1 (22), Swim +2 (14),
Tumble +1 (22), UMD +1 (22)
Feats Selected: Skill Mastery
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 20:
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 20)
Abilities Raised: INT: 23
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +1 (23), Bluff +1 (23),
Diplomacy +1 (23), Disable Device +1 (23), Haggle +1 (23),
Hide +1 (23), Jump +1 (23), Move Silently +1 (23),
Open Lock +1 (23), Search +1 (23), Spot +1 (23), Swim +3 (17),
Tumble +1 (23)
Enhancements Selected: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I,
Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery II, Rogue Faster Sneaking III,
Rogue Deadly Shadow, Rogue Improved Trap Sense II
Stats at End of Level 20:
HP:262 SP:0 AC:15 FORT:10 REFL:17 WILL:6 BAB:+15/+15/+20/+25
STR:16(+3) DEX:21(+5) CON:18(+4) INT:25(+7) WIS:10(0) CHA:12(+1)
Balance:29, Bluff:31, Concentration:5, Diplomacy:25,
Disable Device:33, Haggle:25, Heal:1, Hide:37, Intimidate:2,
Jump:27, Listen:1, Move Silently:37, Open Lock:29,
Perform: n/a, Repair:8, Search:33, Spot:28, Swim:21,
Tumble:29, UMD:24

[Todkaninchen]

Ummm...

If you are willing to deal with issues with DR breaking:

http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_weap...or_damage_mods

There are a number of high DPS DEX/STR weapons now. Most notably the (non-epic) Zephyr short sword (with a base damage of 2[2d4] at ML 10) and (non-epic) Flint dagger (with a base damage of 2[1d6] at ML 10). This basically means--taken with lower level blades like the Sky-Pirate's Dagger and Tiefling Assassin's Blade (ML 4), you can do massive damage at your levels from 4 to 20 with a high DEX, dumped STR melee rogue with a maxed INT. What you'll have problems with is the fact most of these weapons don't break DR.

So, theoretically, you can do massive (non-DR breaking) damage, have an awesome light-armor AC, and a maxed INT by only concentrating on DEX, INT, and a little CON.