Why not Melee Juggernaut with Rune Arm?

[RudedawCDN]

One of the things that really appeals to me about the Juggernaut - "Prime of the Warforged" Build is that it is supposed to be really good at melee.

Yet I see quite a few of the feats in the Juggernaut Build seem to be geared towards ranged damage with either a bow or a crossbow and the rune arm seems to be ignored altogether.

I am a new player so obviously I don't understand all of the different class dynamics and feat selections - but doesn't it make more sense since the Artificer comes with the ability to use rune arm to use rune arm for range damage?

Quote from an Artificer guide....

"Rune arms are absolutely vital to the Artificer class. It doesn't really matter whether you go with a ranged, melee or caster build, your rune arm is still a major part of your damage output... when properly used, that is."

1) Is bow damage/xbow that much better than rune arm or is it that rune arm is such a pita "to use properly" as the guides author puts it.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

Thanks all!

[Keltarrin]

One of the things that really appeals to me about the Juggernaut - "Prime of the Warforged" Build is that it is supposed to be really good at melee.

Yet I see quite a few of the feats in the Juggernaut Build seem to be geared towards ranged damage with either a bow or a crossbow and the rune arm seems to be ignored altogether.

I am a new player so obviously I don't understand all of the different class dynamics and feat selections - but doesn't it make more sense since the Artificer comes with the ability to use rune arm to use rune arm for range damage?

Quote from an Artificer guide....

"Rune arms are absolutely vital to the Artificer class. It doesn't really matter whether you go with a ranged, melee or caster build, your rune arm is still a major part of your damage output... when properly used, that is."

1) Is bow damage/xbow that much better than rune arm or is it that rune arm is such a pita "to use properly" as the guides author puts it.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

Thanks all!

Cleave and Great Cleave both work fine with one handed weapons, I use them on one character with a dueling schlager.

[Myrddinman]

One of the things that really appeals to me about the Juggernaut - "Prime of the Warforged" Build is that it is supposed to be really good at melee.

Yet I see quite a few of the feats in the Juggernaut Build seem to be geared towards ranged damage with either a bow or a crossbow and the rune arm seems to be ignored altogether.

Ranged feats are primarily for Manyshot, which is insane DPS when off timer, when used in conjunction with Unbridled Fury Epic Moment (Fury of the Wild Epic Destiny). Even outside of the Epic Moment, Manyshot is just that good for burst DPS.

Repeaters can be used in conjunction with Endless Fullisade (only 5 times per rest) for another burst of DPS when Manyshot is on timer.

So yeah, all the ranged feats contribute heavily

I am a new player so obviously I don't understand all of the different class dynamics and feat selections - but doesn't it make more sense since the Artificer comes with the ability to use rune arm to use rune arm for range damage?

I'm sure there are variations on the Jugger build that folks use Rune Arms, but RA damage is still based on DCs (Difficulty Checks) which is based off of your Intelligence. The Jugger does not spec heavily in this ability. Also, you would need to spend quite a few APs (Action Points) in the appropriate elemental amp/crit line. This is not to mention that RA Enhancements to make them more viable in combat are pretty expensive.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

Outside of the aforementioned burst ranged damage, Juggers are in the middle of the fight with a 2-Handed weapon, Cleaving and Great Cleaving, while fully buffed with Tensor's Transformation and Deadly Weapons. The crossbow is likely only used for EF (which just having a solid RA, like Corruption of Nature, will help quite a bit.

There are however quite a few 16 Artificer/2 Fighter/2 Monk (or Bard) builds out there for Melee Artificers.

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

I really don't know, but I would think so.

[kanordog]

1) Is bow damage/xbow that much better than rune arm or is it that rune arm is such a pita "to use properly" as the guides author puts it.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

Thanks all!

1: It's xbow, no bow for an artificier because you can not use your runearm.
2: Rune arm damage comes from enhancements and items, no difference ranged or melee artificier.
3: Two handed weapon: can not use runearm. Cleave: You can train, but I'm not sure does it worth the feat since you have a runearm Except bastard sword or dwarven waraxe.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm

[Soulfurnace]

The concept behind the juggernaut (iirc), was self healing, tensors, manyshot.
So, artificer fits perfectly because of feats, self healing, and tensors spell (or scroll, w/e)
In regards to melee/rune arm, it's a ***** to aim, to put it bluntly. Also, you tend to move in melee range... rune arms don't like that much.

1) Manyshot is just... the best, or there abouts. Can't use it with a rune arm though.
2) Um.. a Juggernaut (besides maybe endless fullisade) doesn't USE a rune arm. (aside from nub heroics, where cbow is a free win). So, you're looking for a rune arm/caster artificer, not a Juggernaut. D:
3) Yes, you can. I tested with Nightmare/rune arm on my Jugger life, just to see how viable the bsword was. In short, it's a nice bsword.

[Loriac]

One of the things that really appeals to me about the Juggernaut - "Prime of the Warforged" Build is that it is supposed to be really good at melee.

Yet I see quite a few of the feats in the Juggernaut Build seem to be geared towards ranged damage with either a bow or a crossbow and the rune arm seems to be ignored altogether.

I am a new player so obviously I don't understand all of the different class dynamics and feat selections - but doesn't it make more sense since the Artificer comes with the ability to use rune arm to use rune arm for range damage?

Quote from an Artificer guide....

"Rune arms are absolutely vital to the Artificer class. It doesn't really matter whether you go with a ranged, melee or caster build, your rune arm is still a major part of your damage output... when properly used, that is."

1) Is bow damage/xbow that much better than rune arm or is it that rune arm is such a pita "to use properly" as the guides author puts it.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

Thanks all!

The artificer guide is to be ignored for a juggernaut build. Basically, the juggernaut doesn't play like a normal artificer at all. The juggernaut should be considered melee dps, with manyshot being used for burst damage. I think Haek suggested the repeater as a situational weapon for instances where you want full time ranged damage (basically, a repeater will give you more dps than a bow when manyshot is on timer, and as an arty you can get +Int to damage via insightful damage).

A melee artificer that uses the runearm is going to be built completely differently to a juggernaut. The jugg maxes strength, and uses that for his 2handed attacks as well as manyshot damage (due to bow strength). The runearm melee artificer will end up max'ing Int instead, to get the most out of the runearm and the bastard sword. If you're going down this route, you're better off with either a pure arty or an arty 18/rog 2 for evasion (rog 2 allows for haste boost from enhancements, which imo outweighs having monk 2 instead). The pure arty version will have access to tac det (which becomes usuable when Int is maxed), but the evasion melee artificer misses out as he only gets 2 level 6 spells.

The problem for the melee artificer however is that none of the epic destinies really supports the playstyle; to maximise the runearm (and DC spells) you need epic destinies that increase Int. However, to maximise weapons damage, you're usually looking at FotW or Legendary Dreadnaught. On balance, you lose out to the juggernaut as that build can maximise all its features by selecting either FotW or LD.

[Noctus]

I have a ranged Arti (max INT), and i dont use the Runearm any more, because its such a pita to use. I perform better when i ignore it completly and dont waste build & equipment-resources and "combat-attention" on its use.

[droid327]

Also, true-THF Artis get 1.5x bonus from STR and double bonus from PA, while 1HF with a BS is still calculated at the normal 1x/1x rate.

[dogsoldier]

I am running an Iconic melee with the run arm. 14ART/2PAL/2ROG
I took Toughness/PA/Cleave/Great Cleave/THF/IMP THF, Imp Crit Slash, Bastard Sword, Maximize, Quicken.
Stats: 16 str (all level ups here), 16 con, 16 int, rest in cha/dex
For enhancements I went battle engineer, and the repair/force lines

What is really surprising is that ranged attack with the repeater is not terrible even with no feats. I can also use insightful damage since I did not dump INT, and my rune arm hits decent. My pure arti can one shot the training dummy with a rune arm, this one takes two shots and a few melee hits to take it down.

The only reason for bastard sword is to take advantage of glancing blows when running the rune arm. I also use greatswords, but the force imbue is really nice so I end up using BS/RA a lot.

Using Lucid Dreams and a Cormyrian BS with disintegration on it.

[serthcore]

Why not one handed + rune arm?

Rune arm has its DC based on int, so if you want it to land on EE's you would need a heavy investment, lowering the Strength score. That is ok if you just want to use say a bastard sword + rune(use insightful damage). But Manyshot is so good burst dps but it relies on strength, so if you go int based your manyshot will suffer.
On the other hand Rune arm damage depends on level, so going for 16 lvls instead of 20 lowers it.
Another reason can be the playstile, charging a rune arm gives you a 20% movement penalty and you can't twitch that well comparing to a THF toon.
Also some Juggs take stunning blow, its DC is strength based.

As a side note cleave and GC works well with rune arms.

[Singular]

I have a ranged Arti (max INT), and i dont use the Runearm any more, because its such a pita to use. I perform better when i ignore it completly and dont waste build & equipment-resources and "combat-attention" on its use.

Uhm...you're losing up to 40% of your damage by not using it. The rune arm easily adds 1200-1800 damage every 6 seconds, more if you've specced out for elemental damage.

I use force, so Archaic Device - very easy to use, it follows enemies.

[redspecter23]

With the way the artificer trees are laid out, I've been at least giving thought to swapping to bastard sword + runearm. It may not be as powerful as 2hf, but it does have some nice synergies. I think the key piece of the puzzle would be a bastard sword that fits the role. Nightmare is very nice for what it does, but I don't think it's quite the dps monster that would be needed to rival Cleaver or ESoS. Whatever new weapons might be in the expansion pack could lead to a sword + runearm build being viable... perhaps, or it could just lead to some other 2hf weapon that trumps the ones people are currently using.

[maitremechant]

other cons:
While you splash into another class then arti... you lose dmg dices on the runearms...
runearms works with spell power and evocation dc...

The runearm damage makes a real difference when able to be static. charge to tier 5, be maxed out on evo dc and spellpower.

A mix melee + runearm is a difference in gameplay style, but requires so much differents stats that you can't excel at both.

[EssenceofEvil]

I was always curious on a melee arty using weapon finesse( going to have high dex usually anyhow) and insightful damage to make up for the lack of strength... Sounds interesting but I wonder on its effectiveness.

[Failedlegend]

I was always curious on a melee arty using weapon finesse( going to have high dex usually anyhow) and insightful damage to make up for the lack of strength... Sounds interesting but I wonder on its effectiveness.

Impossible neither B-Sword nor D-Axce are finessable and those are the only melee weapons you can wield whilst using a runearm.

[Nightmanis]

Impossible neither B-Sword nor D-Axce are finessable and those are the only melee weapons you can wield whilst using a runearm.

Wrong. You can wield any one handed weapon with a runearm, it's just that a bastard sword and a dwarven waraxe work the best with one.

The finesse idea works with 2 weapons however. Sunblade and Celestia both use all the stats of a Bastard sword, yet are finesse-able since they are both classified as short swords.

Incidentally, if you wanted to go with a melee RA arti then you would just put whatever a repeater arti would have for dex into str instead. Granted most people will want to have ranged as well and try and be some kind of juggernaut as the title implies.

[RTFM]

Quote from an Artificer guide....

"Rune arms are absolutely vital to the Artificer class. It doesn't really matter whether you go with a ranged, melee or caster build, your rune arm is still a major part of your damage output... when properly used, that is."

Like a lot of "guides" this is talking about a pure artificer. Yes, as a pure lvl 20 Artificer build that rune arm is pretty imperative to have and put points into enhancements to maximize the rune arm charge damage. Having played several pure artificers to cap you pretty much have xbow and rune arm and that's how you run.

1) Is bow damage/xbow that much better than rune arm or is it that rune arm is such a pita "to use properly" as the guides author puts it.

Longbow/Shortbow damage is not effected by a Rune Arm because you cannot equip a RA and Longbow/Shortbow together.

Xbow damage is normally increased with an elemental damage die similar to a red augment of the same level.

The Rune Arm Charge can provide some nice additional damage but requires you to use a wonky aiming and firing UI it takes a bit to get use it.

2) Does anyone have a Melee Juggernaut build that focuses on the Rune Arm for damage instead of the Crossbow for damage?

The rune arm and crossbow can be equipped together. The RA will provide some extra elemental damage to the xbow when you use it, as described above. The problem on a Jugg is you really don't care about the Rune Arm Charge because 1) Enhancements points are better spent on saves and other things and 2) lvl 16 artificer Rune Arm Charge not that great anyway so why bother? A manyshot with OC and fury will do a lot more damage than a Run Arm shot.

3) Can you train cleave and use rune arm at the same time? (I looked into prereqs for cleave and it doesn't say anything about a 1 handed or 2 handed weapon).

You can cleave/GC/momentum/laywaste with a rune arm. Fact is if you are doing any of those cleave actions you are better off DPS wise with an eSOS, Cleaver, etc. than any single handed weapon/rune arm combo. Hence you don't see people cleaving with rune arms.