Need help with a trapmonkey build

[MuinainenKoski]

So I've been thinking of making a support char / trapmonkey to do some light soloing and pugging. I figured bard would be the way to go to be relatively useful, being able to (self) heal and then splashing that with 2 levels of rogue (at least) to get trap skills and evasion.

Basic build outline featuring my questions is:

Half-Elf or Human (Paladin Dil vs 1 Feat and Skillpoint)

Rogue 2/18 Bard or maybe Rogue 6 / 14 Bard, or should I ditch bard completely and go for wizard instead? I kinda like bards though. Since I could group with pretty much anyone.

Should I go with warchanter, or maybe virtuoso for extra songs (moar buffs, fascinate). Also fearing warchanter might spread my feats way too thin. I read that spellsinger is not that useful if splashed.

6/14 would go for int damage on xbows and light repeater route. What should I use as 2/18?

Is there a working build with just one one-handed weapon? (Thinking of the doublestrike buckler maybe?) I would imagine my char would be mostly casting/wanding so melee is not that important. Maybe with a cha-to-hit/damage weapon if at all.

I have a warchanter bard already, going through the chars second life as a 2hf, sp going full melee is not really on my list.

How would stealthing work? I read that stealth is somewhat broken at the moment. But I would guess that with some investment, I could maybe solo a few quests, avoiding (all) mobs?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide me.

[bsquishwizzy]

It sounds like you want trapping, buffs, CC, and self-healing. You're not really interested in melee much. A better bet would be to go 18 wizzy (PM), 2 rogue as you get all of these things, and still use INT as a main focus for spellcasting and trapping.

Trapping is mostly gear with a decent INT (DEX for lock-picking). You can probably go insigtful reflexes that was as well. Thus, you'd be dividing your main stats between INT and DEX. Whereas with a bard you'd be dividing your starts between CHA (songs), INT (trapping), and DEX (stealth).

(As an FYI, I'm not a big bard guy, so take my professed ignorance into account).

Stealth has a lot of use when trapping. It is nice to sneak up to a control panel, and disable it right under the nose of unsuspecting mobs. I generally do that a lot with my rogue. Stealth is mandatory for Assassinate, but you're not going that route at all.

[SisAmethyst]

So I've been thinking of making a support char / trapmonkey to do some light soloing and pugging. I figured bard would be the way to go to be relatively useful, being able to (self) heal and then splashing that with 2 levels of rogue (at least) to get trap skills and evasion.

Basic build outline featuring my questions is:

Half-Elf or Human (Paladin Dil vs 1 Feat and Skillpoint)

Rogue 2/18 Bard or maybe Rogue 6 / 14 Bard, or should I ditch bard completely and go for wizard instead? I kinda like bards though. Since I could group with pretty much anyone.

Should I go with warchanter, or maybe virtuoso for extra songs (moar buffs, fascinate). Also fearing warchanter might spread my feats way too thin. I read that spellsinger is not that useful if splashed.

6/14 would go for int damage on xbows and light repeater route. What should I use as 2/18?

Is there a working build with just one one-handed weapon? (Thinking of the doublestrike buckler maybe?) I would imagine my char would be mostly casting/wanding so melee is not that important. Maybe with a cha-to-hit/damage weapon if at all.

I have a warchanter bard already, going through the chars second life as a 2hf, sp going full melee is not really on my list.

How would stealthing work? I read that stealth is somewhat broken at the moment. But I would guess that with some investment, I could maybe solo a few quests, avoiding (all) mobs?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide me.

Just try the build Master-Assassin from Mellkor out! If you really want to go in songs you can do this even later with your epic destiny. As a Rogue with max INT you can have UMD that high that even rez scroll aren't an issue even less any other scroll out there. Still you can instakill every trash mob or orange (as long as they not have death ward). I mean what more on support you want?

I follow this build and haven't yet failed a single trap, the only thing I had to change where the points in DEX to qualify for TWF.

Regarding stealth: No, its not broken, stealth itself works fine, just pure invisible won't as most enemies will hear you if you not sneak. As a rogue you shouldn't have issue to bump your stealth high enough that you could sneeze and they still won't catch you. So yeah, you could probably just sneak till the end chest in most quests if there wouldn't be some other objectives along the way...

[MuinainenKoski]

It sounds like you want trapping, buffs, CC, and self-healing. You're not really interested in melee much. A better bet would be to go 18 wizzy (PM), 2 rogue as you get all of these things, and still use INT as a main focus for spellcasting and trapping.

Trapping is mostly gear with a decent INT (DEX for lock-picking). You can probably go insigtful reflexes that was as well. Thus, you'd be dividing your main stats between INT and DEX. Whereas with a bard you'd be dividing your starts between CHA (songs), INT (trapping), and DEX (stealth).

(As an FYI, I'm not a big bard guy, so take my professed ignorance into account).

Stealth has a lot of use when trapping. It is nice to sneak up to a control panel, and disable it right under the nose of unsuspecting mobs. I generally do that a lot with my rogue. Stealth is mandatory for Assassinate, but you're not going that route at all.

This is actually something I've thought about (hence the "should I go wizard instead") though I do like the bard versitality and superior skillpoints/class sills (umd, stealths) which might allow me to actually max something else than trap skills. I would most likely go with AM though, I have a dislike for PM for some reason.

Personal power itself is not an issue here, I can make a powerful killer character as a separate toon.

Just try the build Master-Assassin from Mellkor out! If you really want to go in songs you can do this even later with your epic destiny. As a Rogue with max INT you can have UMD that high that even rez scroll aren't an issue even less any other scroll out there. Still you can instakill every trash mob or orange (as long as they not have death ward). I mean what more on support you want?

I follow this build and haven't yet failed a single trap, the only thing I had to change where the points in DEX to qualify for TWF.

Regarding stealth: No, its not broken, stealth itself works fine, just pure invisible won't as most enemies will hear you if you not sneak. As a rogue you shouldn't have issue to bump your stealth high enough that you could sneeze and they still won't catch you. So yeah, you could probably just sneak till the end chest in most quests if there wouldn't be some other objectives along the way...

Not really interested in a full rogue though, the build itself seems interesting. If one were to go the assasin route, do you think you could get anything out of 6/14 mix with just SIN1 enhancements? Though rogue mechanic does tempt me a bit more here.

[bsquishwizzy]

This is actually something I've thought about (hence the "should I go wizard instead") though I do like the bard versitality and superior skillpoints/class sills (umd, stealths) which might allow me to actually max something else than trap skills. I would most likely go with AM though, I have a dislike for PM for some reason.

Personal power itself is not an issue here, I can make a powerful killer character as a separate toon.

Unless you go WF, going AM sacrifices self-healing. I mean, with UMD I'm sure you could make it work.

Plus PM death auras harm mobs as well as heal you. So it is a bit of a melee bonus. My personal opinion is that PM is really well-suited for multiclassing than maybe AM. Your call, however...

[bsquishwizzy]

Not really interested in a full rogue though, the build itself seems interesting. If one were to go the assasin route, do you think you could get anything out of 6/14 mix with just SIN1 enhancements? Though rogue mechanic does tempt me a bit more here.

I haven't read the post, but I believe that anything Rogue Assassin is going to get a major re-vamp when the Enhancement pass comes out. I don't think Assassinate becomes available until lvl 18.

[~KrelarVersion2]

I haven't read the post, but I believe that anything Rogue Assassin is going to get a major re-vamp when the Enhancement pass comes out. I don't think Assassinate becomes available until lvl 18.

Assassinate is a tier 5 ability which required 30 points spent in the tree (or was it less at the end?) so you could get it by level 8 if you really wanted to.

(This all depends on what kind of changes they make of course)

[MuinainenKoski]

Assassinate is a tier 5 ability which required 30 points spent in the tree (or was it less at the end?) so you could get it by level 8 if you really wanted to.

(This all depends on what kind of changes they make of course)

I am assuming you are talking about Lamannia enhancements? When are those coming out exactly?

As for some clarification, the concept I am looking for is closer to this Archaeologist, the top most archtype.

With the new enhancenents, I might actually be able to do it with full mechanic or maybe a 12(+)/something splash. I've seen a few 13/7 rogue/arti splashes. Whats the idea on those? XBow Fuscillade + Trap skills/bonus int? Would for example 13/7 wizard work? or even 13/7 bard (since you DO get haste there)

For now I was hoping on achieving it with bard as base though. Would 6/14 build work in any way by taking spellsinger for buffs? It would spread me quite thin with stat points though, but I have 32 build at my disposal and I can always refine if I reach lvl 20 and reincarnate to a better me.

Self healing is not that important, its just a bonus. For example I would not go for WF just so I could repair myself. I would rather endure as a fleshie. Though 13/7 with arti could net me the half-construct feat :P

[~Izaak]

Not fully fleshed out, but I'd start along the lines of:

Human 18 bard 2 rogue, THF, spellsinger.

32pt: 16str, 14dex, 16con, 12int, 8wis, 10cha. Levelups to Str.
Feats: Toughness, PA, Maximize (for ss and heals), IC:S ... (choose from: cleave, thf, quicken etc.)
Level sequence: Rogue levels at 1 and 8 (maximum skill points w. +2 int tome at 7).

This is a melee build with full perform, search, disable and lockpick as well as maximized (optionally quickened) cures. Spellsinger is for SP replenish and buffing arcanes.

Downsides: No spell DCs, dump spot.

P.S. Personally I'd hope that someone in my pug would do more than just buff and disable traps. That means DPS, CC or heal. If you don't like melee, I'd go artificer instead of bard. You'll get to buff and spot heal the group, and contribute to DPS with a repeater.

[MuinainenKoski]

Not fully fleshed out, but I'd start along the lines of:

Human 18 bard 2 rogue, THF, spellsinger.

32pt: 16str, 14dex, 16con, 8wis, 10cha. Levelups to Str.
Feats: Toughness, PA, Maximize (for ss and heals), IC:S ... (choose from: cleave, thf, quicken etc.)
Level sequence: Rogue levels at 1 and 8 (maximum skill points w. +2 int tome at 7).

This is a melee build with full perform, search, disable and lockpick as well as maximized (optionally quickened) cures. Spellsinger is for SP replenish and buffing arcanes.

Downsides: No spell DCs, dump spot.

Thank you for the answer, I got some questions about it.

Dude, where did your int go?

Why THF? Especially with dex that high (whats it for?). This seems to be more of a warchanter (you're taking all the requirements already) than a spellsinger though, what would be the benefit of that? This is actually quite close to what my warchanter build has, save for maximize)

Does anyone like virtuosos these days (the pre-reqs seem a bit useless though)?

[~Izaak]

Thank you for the answer, I got some questions about it.

Dude, where did your int go?

Why THF? Especially with dex that high (whats it for?). This seems to be more of a warchanter (you're taking all the requirements already) than a spellsinger though, what would be the benefit of that? This is actually quite close to what my warchanter build has, save for maximize)

Does anyone like virtuosos these days (the pre-reqs seem a bit useless though)?

Thanks, added int (12).

I started with 18str and 8dex, but then realized you specifically wanted evasion and edited my suggestion to 16/14. With low dex your reflex save is going to suck -> evasion is useless.

While 2WF is great on rogues (more sneak attack procs), I think 2HF is less stat and feat intensive.

IMHO warchanter brings very little to the table at higher levels (20+). The ironskin chant is great at low levels, and a good option is to take warchanter and swap it to spellsinger when you have 12 bard levels.

There are virtuosos out there, but note that in the new enhancement pass virtuosos and spellsingers will be merged to one.

[MuinainenKoski]

Thanks, added int (12).

I started with 18str and 8dex, but then realized you specifically wanted evasion and edited my suggestion to 16/14. With low dex your reflex save is going to suck -> evasion is useless.

While 2WF is great on rogues (more sneak attack procs), I think 2HF is less stat and feat intensive.

IMHO warchanter brings very little to the table at higher levels (20+). The ironskin chant is great at low levels, and a good option is to take warchanter and swap it to spellsinger when you have 12 bard levels.

There are virtuosos out there, but note that in the new enhancement pass virtuosos and spellsingers will be merged to one.

I was mostly thinking of virtuoso due to the increased amounts of songs, so I could sing more often even when losing some levels of bard (especially, if I went with 6/14 build), but after the new enhancements I would probably have to re-think my builds anyways. (I am assuming they give a reset to enhancements at least at that point).

I was actually thinking of backing up the reflex save with insightful reflexes and increasing Int further. Whats your take on this? I would not be using my dex for AC that much.

[TheMash]

Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
(2 Fighter / 2 Rogue / 16 Bard)
Hit Points: 210
Spell Points: 475

BAB: 15/15/20/2525
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 17
Will: 11

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 14 14
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 14 14

Starting Ending
Base Skills Base Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 4
Bluff 2 2
Concentration 4 12
Diplomacy 2 2
Disable Device 5 24
Haggle 6 6
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 2
Intimidate 2 2
Jump 7 9
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 2
Open Lock 6 6
Perform n/a 25
Repair 1 1
Search 5 24
Spot 3 3
Swim 3 5
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 6 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Bard)

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Bard)

Level 5 (Bard)

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 7 (Bard)

Level 8 (Bard)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting

Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack

Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 13 (Bard)

Level 14 (Bard)

Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 16 (Bard)

Level 17 (Bard)

Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell

Level 19 (Bard)

Level 20 (Bard)

This is a build I made for a guildie of mine before motu, now I'd probably dump the THF line and pick up cleave/great cleave to qualify for OC.

Dex CAN be dumped, but I would advice against it for an evasion toon, the paladin dilly is ofcourse for saves.

[~Izaak]

I was mostly thinking of virtuoso due to the increased amounts of songs, so I could sing more often even when losing some levels of bard (especially, if I went with 6/14 build), but after the new enhancements I would probably have to re-think my builds anyways. (I am assuming they give a reset to enhancements at least at that point).

I was actually thinking of backing up the reflex save with insightful reflexes and increasing Int further. Whats your take on this? I would not be using my dex for AC that much.

I think that would work very well. More skill points is great. The only downside is the use of a feat, but probably worth it.

[SisAmethyst]

Not really interested in a full rogue though, the build itself seems interesting. If one were to go the assasin route, do you think you could get anything out of 6/14 mix with just SIN1 enhancements? Though rogue mechanic does tempt me a bit more here.

I got that, my point was more along the lines that with enough Rogue levels, INT for skills like UMD there is nothing that stop you from doing whatever you assume and prefer as of being supportive. However one need Tier 2 to be able to assassin and that again need a high DC to work reliable.

I haven't read the post, but I believe that anything Rogue Assassin is going to get a major re-vamp when the Enhancement pass comes out. I don't think Assassinate becomes available until lvl 18.

As said above, tier 2 (lvl 12) is needed for assassin. The major re-vamp is probably due to the fact that with the enhancement pass in one of the upcoming updates, one can get that far earlier and the synergies between certain elements fit better.

Regarding the Bard setup it is an interesting choice, especially due to the fact that even today after Tier 2 we don't have anything more on Bard, so most players anyway splash something in.

[SisAmethyst]

This is a build I made for a guildie of mine before motu, now I'd probably dump the THF line and pick up cleave/great cleave to qualify for OC.

Dex CAN be dumped, but I would advice against it for an evasion toon, the paladin dilly is ofcourse for saves.

Well if you go cleaving with THF, and then indeed you can dump DEX and pump INT up instead. Using Insightful Reflex it will use INT for your reflex save and you even get more skill points this way as said already above...

oohhh this new forum is such a mess to read and post...

[TheMash]

Well if you go cleaving with THF, and then indeed you can dump DEX and pump INT up instead. Using Insightful Reflex it will use INT for your reflex save and you even get more skill points this way as said already above...

oohhh this new forum is such a mess to read and post...

That's a pretty good idea actually.

[Inoukchuk]

I was mostly thinking of virtuoso due to the increased amounts of songs, so I could sing more often even when losing some levels of bard (especially, if I went with 6/14 build), but after the new enhancements I would probably have to re-think my builds anyways. (I am assuming they give a reset to enhancements at least at that point).

I was actually thinking of backing up the reflex save with insightful reflexes and increasing Int further. Whats your take on this? I would not be using my dex for AC that much.

I have a bard/rogue (currently 13/2). She's effective, but as a first life toon she's stretched very thin. You need high cha, int, dex, wis, str, con.... so... everything. Because of that I went drow for the +2 on 3 stats, but as a first life toon (no TR gear) and a drow she's pretty squishy, and just barely has her skills high enough to do elite traps at level, and her DPS isn't great. She's still pretty fun.

I personally think an artificer build (even a jug) would accomplish what you want best. Jug gives you 2 paly for saves, 2 monk for evasion, 16 artificer for traps/spells/umd, and enough feats to make yourself useful in combat (whether you chose to go the melee/bow route like a jug, or spells, or repeaters). This method gives you similar buffing ability to bard, better traps/skills, and slightly consolidates your stat needs.

[Sogrin]

not to rain on your parade, but i personbally would never look at a 14 bard 6 anything build as more then a flavour build if taking it into epics.

with 1 more level, you get the pre-rec for the epic inspire feat, which is something most (if not all) EE/raids look for

with a 2nd level, you get lvl 6 spells.

i'd suggest either going 16 bard, then X whatever (for example 16 bard, 2 arty 2 monk) or splashing in 6 bard for the prestiege enhancement (for example 13 rogue, 6 bard then 1 barb/fighter/monk)

[MuinainenKoski]

not to rain on your parade, but i personbally would never look at a 14 bard 6 anything build as more then a flavour build if taking it into epics.

with 1 more level, you get the pre-rec for the epic inspire feat, which is something most (if not all) EE/raids look for

with a 2nd level, you get lvl 6 spells.

i'd suggest either going 16 bard, then X whatever (for example 16 bard, 2 arty 2 monk) or splashing in 6 bard for the prestiege enhancement (for example 13 rogue, 6 bard then 1 barb/fighter/monk)

Yeah the flavour part is a bit disturbing there. I was thinking that any split of 16/X or 18/X would be better.

As a side note, monk is not a possible splash with a bard, due to alignment restrictions?

I got little interest in THF bard build, as I have a warchanter already and it works quite well. Was aiming for something caster/cc/utility route.

I also played an arty to max level and I was a bit bothered by the lack of evasion (not too good at dodging traps yet) so I was not really useful in most elites since I kept dying while disarming :P

I might try arty once they bring the new enhancements, since I really like the idea of the tinkering path (battle engineer was a bit boring). Though I would be open to some fun caster arty build, that is not only about using flame turret and blade barrier.