Iconic Chars, without the TR just another thing to ignore..

[Daemoneyes]

I think you're misunderstanding comes from you thinking DDO is an MMO. It's not. It's an instanced solo game with co-op/social options, and this is why DDO is a niche game and why it doesn't have to compete with other MMOs. The ability to solo your way to cap/to be self-sufficient and not need a healer. To be able to just grab the first five and go. All of this stuff comes with a price, and that price is that new players need to have an easy entry into this solo arena. Unfortunately, this isn't the current case. New players join thinking this is an MMO and build toons as though it is and casual players don't usually know how to build/gear their toons. This causes them to get frustrated and leave the game. Devs are now focusing on fixing this, and that is why we're getting things like Iconic Heroes.

DDO is for me as much an mmo as is WOW or WAR or any other.
There is always the choice to solo or group.
I tend to run solo and only group when its the only option to finish something or when its pvp and i am in the mood for leading a group or joining a group where i know people.
But mostly i run solo because i often have to go afk or quit midquest.
Well ok, often its also that i am to annoyed by noobs, no not newbs i mean noobs.
And from what i have seen in my years of mmo gaming this is how play most of us.

And honestly i dont see Iconics fit in there, mmo gamer are a longtime crowd.
We tend to play 2-3 years the same game and then change to the next.
With so much time invested Iconics are a dead end, especially when you consider all the grind and investment you have to do.
Gearing out the char, grinding epic dest. xp, Tomes, Bank/inventarspace.
Sure some will like them but i dont see them as really popular, make them TR able and they would be popular.
For me there doesnt even need to be a PL feat or any other bonus from a Iconic life.
Just let me TR into it and TR out of it, i dont even want the xp to 15 or any of the gear.
And from the comments here i am not alone with that wish, so it really remains to ask why dont we get that?

[Furare]

What bothers me more than being restricted from TRing is that you can't reincarnate these characters at all.

I don't think I have a single character that I haven't put through an LR at some point. Before I TRed Sorenar she had been LRed a grand total of 4 times. Possibly all this does is expose how rubbish I am at building characters right the first time (or the second, or the third...) but it's a real concern for me, the idea of having a character I can't "fix" if/when I mess it up.

Oh, and how is a character you can't reincarnate at all going to mesh well with the enhancement pass? I understood all characters would get a free LR for that because of the removal/changing of prerequisite feats for a bunch of PrEs. Iconics would get a bit shafted there, right?

(Assuming the inability to LR is WAI. I know I couldn't get anything out of Kruz at all when I playtested Bladeforged earlier in the week.)

[Silverleafeon]

What bothers me more than being restricted from TRing is that you can't reincarnate these characters at all.

Ok, ok, you guys have some valid points here.

But, Fawn is going play what if?

What if somewhere in Forgotten Realms there is this cool dude called?
Well what shall we call him?
How about http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Legend_of_Drizzt

And Drizzt being an Epic sort of guy offer the Epic TR option (coming Soontm to a game near you).

This Epic TR thing is only available if you are level 30.

This Epic TR thing allow you to become either a level 1 normal class or a level 15 iconic class?

The iconic classes become the "new completionist path" mentioned by producer Glen's letter.

Since iconic classes start you at 15, normal TRing is not available for them, so Kruzt is completely locked out for them.

This cool dude might offer Epic Respecting, if you ask him nicely, then again, he might not?


Well, what you think about that?

I mean I cannot see any other new completionist path on the horizon.
Imho, all epic destinies done has its own reward system.

[Furare]

Well, what you think about that?

What I think is that I'm not interested in Drizzt being in any game where I can't kill him and take his fancy swords. (Endgame scimitars plzkthx.)

In seriousness, I think you're making a lot of assumptions about how Iconics are going to work and how epic TRing is going to work. All we know at the moment is that Iconics can't reincarnate and that this is by design. They might similarly be locked out of Epic TR for all we know at present. And even if Epic TR (whatever it turns out to be) is enabled for Iconics, that still doesn't address the point that these characters cannot LR. You can't fix or re-optimise them when the game changes. That's a huge stumbling block for me personally. I get that people who don't like to tweak their characters a lot, or for whom their base build is less important than their ED setup, may well not agree with me on this.

It would also be nice if you could TR into them, though I sort of get why you can't TR out of them. You could maybe just waive the PL feat though, or get a different PL feat to reflect that you were Iconic - maybe you only get a version of the passive PL that doesn't qualify as a prerequisite for the active PL for the parent class. I don't know.

[Silverleafeon]

these characters cannot LR. You can't fix or re-optimise them when the game changes. That's a huge stumbling block for me personally.

I agree very much.

One of my favorite characters has gotten more and more out of wack,
as the game changed over the last two years. If I could not adjust her
with a LR or a TR, I would be very disappointed.

I have also learned a lot, so that minor mistakes I made long ago have become tiresome.

[Mark2422]

Ok, ok, you guys have some valid points here.

But, Fawn is going play what if?

What if somewhere in Forgotten Realms there is this cool dude called?
Well what shall we call him?
How about http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Legend_of_Drizzt

And Drizzt being an Epic sort of guy offer the Epic TR option (coming Soontm to a game near you).

This Epic TR thing is only available if you are level 30.

This Epic TR thing allow you to become either a level 1 normal class or a level 15 iconic class?

The iconic classes become the "new completionist path" mentioned by producer Glen's letter.

Since iconic classes start you at 15, normal TRing is not available for them, so Kruzt is completely locked out for them.

This cool dude might offer Epic Respecting, if you ask him nicely, then again, he might not?


Well, what you think about that?

I mean I cannot see any other new completionist path on the horizon.
Imho, all epic destinies done has its own reward system.

Whilst I like your theory and would welcome this to be true, it does mean that once you go Iconic you can never go back to normal, as it stands.

You do make some good points though. We do know that they are planning a new Epic TR and with it Epic completionist. With that in mind, its like other people have said. It is very hard to evaluate these new Iconic Toons without the devs putting them into some sort of context for us. I am not even sure how we can report back and say they are working as intended when we don't even know how they are intended to be working...

[SickCat]

Personally, I couldn't be happier. I'll make one...two...maybe three...run enough Coin Lord and House K favor to unlock all my bag and bank space. This is the easiest way to make a mule! WOO HOO!

[Daemoneyes]

Personally, I couldn't be happier. I'll make one...two...maybe three...run enough Coin Lord and House K favor to unlock all my bag and bank space. This is the easiest way to make a mule! WOO HOO!

This is something i learned to hate.
Since the beginnings of PC games designer seem to think inventar / bankspace should be something rarer then platin.
Which is absolutely bull.
True inventar shouldnt be endless because it should give us trouble what to take into a quest BUT looting stuff should not be limited because there is no reason for limiting it.
Also there should be endless Bankspace aviable, naturally it should cost the player something but there is absolute no reason that a player should not be able to buy/rent a whole bank tresor.

The best games make you decide what to take into a mission but no game should make it annoying to keep what you earned.

removed last stuff after cooling down (just recieved another joke answer from "costumer support" before writing this << 3months now and still not gotten my paid xpac key ..)

[Silverleafeon]

This is something i learned to hate.
Since the beginnings of PC games designer seem to think inventar / bankspace should be something rarer then platin.
Which is absolutely bull.
True inventar shouldnt be endless because it should give us trouble what to take into a quest BUT looting stuff should not be limited because there is no reason for limiting it.
Also there should be endless Bankspace aviable, naturally it should cost the player something but there is absolute no reason that a player should not be able to buy/rent a whole bank tresor.

The best games make you decide what to take into a mission but no game should make it annoying to keep what you earned...

+1

[Panserbjorne]

Now, I am in the same boat with the people that think Bladeforged should be able to TR because I love options and I think it could potentially add a lot more to the game and the utility of the iconic characters. I don't disagree with you.

One thing that I have not SEEN mentioned though, and I thought it was WORTH saying, is you could farm favor from quest level 1 to 10 fairly easily to get TP , group up for levels 10-16 and then rinse/repeat.

Essentially, it is a super-charged Veteran Status.

There is 1118 favor from F2P quests in the level range of 1-16. That is not an insignificant amount of TP. in fact, it is 425 TP total (though ddowiki has an error and shows 500 TP)

The second expansion would have something (in this way) for new characters that have not purchased TP previously. An expansion for those that want to farm TP! The first life, you grind 400 favor, unlock drow (you would need it for another iconic) and net yourself 200 TP. Then, some players make a Drizzt iconic, convince their friends to roll a Bladeforged and adventure with them until everyone gets 1000 favor, netting another 425 TP, which is an adventure pack worth of material (625 TP). Then they purchase an adventure pack (together!) and they move on to the next Iconic. The existing iconic, Bladeforged, should be able to solo quests fairly easily, as most are below level anyway. Perhaps the others can as well?

Now, I think the expansion should not cater just to one specific group, but I DO see how it could introduce players to the game, and give existing players a way to purchase some additional content.

Let's consider these new players might already have another game subscription. They might be enticed to switch to DDO if they had a way to start at mid-level and farm all the low-level quests for TP. This has the potential to give a better ROI than the previous expansion because it is targeting a larger audience and making that initial experience with DDO better.

Perhaps the next expansion will be geared more toward the power-gamer, as the previous one did. If they succeed in generating more revenue with Iconics then the NEXT expansion will be made all the better for it!

[Silverleafeon]

One thing that I have not SEEN mentioned though, and I thought it was WORTH saying, is you could farm favor from quest level 1 to 10 fairly easily to get TP , group up for levels 10-16 and then rinse/repeat.

It amazes me that Turbine pays you Turbine Points just to play this game.
The Devs actually congratulated someone who without paying a single penny,
managed to make it to Completionist.

I personally like the whole concept, but being accustomed to paying a quarter for 5 to 20 minutes of fun at an arcane...

[Dylvish]

I'm a bit more on the moderation view of it I guess, seeing points from both sides.

My opinion?

A) TR SHOULD be allowed.... with a couple of restrictions:
1) Only if you started the Iconic race at level 1 (give an option to start at 1 and not auto-15)
2) When you TR into it, you start at level 1 (no bonus 15 levels worth of exp)



I think this would satisfy most of the players, and prevent much of the feared exploits.

Just my take on it. Other than that, I have liked most of what I have seen of the very limited information regarding the upcoming changes and expansion.

~Dylvish