No epic versions?

[~D4rth]

Our final XP settings shouldn't be as low as what Cannith went out with for its level, but these dungeons won't be the highest XP dungeons you'll see at Lv 15. We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens.

You know how lvl 17 elite BB TR 2+ looks like?
Drink a XP pot
Litany E 9xH N
Missing E 9xH N
Sinister Storage E
Fear Factory E
Take 18.

Now ask me if I'd gladly run something else than litany and missing into the ground each life. Go on, I dare you!

[Dhalgren]

Ironically, our code has safety checks for putting in values that are that "absurd."

Our final XP settings shouldn't be as low as what Cannith went out with for its level, but these dungeons won't be the highest XP dungeons you'll see at Lv 15. We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens.

However, some new named treasure is going into these dungeons. We're really excited about them, and they should make these dungeons worth running a few times to get a few of the best items. They'll be in the next time Lamannia is updated.

No offense, but are you people even paying attention?

[~EMTP-13]

No offense, but are you people even paying attention?

The Anwser is NO! they act like they will listen then dont. They act upsest when we dont Trust things will get fixed when we have been told the same line over and over. Do you know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting diferent results.

[~TuskCouncil]

I dunno... I could see a use for another named teleport clicky... or even greater teleport... or a ressurection clicky... or a fireshield clicky... or a displacement clicky... maybe better for first lifers to farm those rather than rererun the shroud... or restless isles...

Great point.

[~Hexfax]

I dunno... I could see a use for another named teleport clicky... or even greater teleport... or a ressurection clicky... or a fireshield clicky... or a displacement clicky... maybe better for first lifers to farm those rather than rererun the shroud... or restless isles...

Unfortunately, I fear that the clicky will be disappearing from future items.

Instead, we'll be getting crappy on proc spells like all Fireshield clickies have been turned into.

Or we'll get an even worse item: Eternal Potions that shares a cooldown with all other Eternal Potions.

[Cyr]

The current XP settings for all three quests are just placeholder values, practically a string of random numbers.

Setting XP is always the very last thing we do before the dungeons go live. That's because in order to evaluate how much XP a dungeon should be worth, we want for every other feature in the dungeon to be fully working, and we want to get difficulty feedback from everyone on Lamannia first.

So please give us feedback about difficulty and how much XP these dungeons should be worth, but don't be concerned that the settings are bad now.

Basic problems with that approach:

1. Very little historically has changed in dungeons due to Lammania feedback which would effect the average completion time of a quest...which should be the main criteria for assigning xxp values.

2. "Placeholder" values appear to have been put in live many times in the past given the values seen on Lammania first release and then final release.

3. XP values are a main criteria for how much a dungeon will get run in the leveling range (ie non cap content). As such it is one of the most critical parts of a successful design not something to be pushed off to the last minute.

4. Last minute xp assignment does not allow for time for effective player feedback on this critical aspect of dungeon design. Feedback that the developers clearly need as they have proven that thyehave serious difficulties assigning logical xp values.

5. XP is FAR TOO SCALAR to properly scale with difficulty which is anything but nor should difficulty be the main factor for assigning xp value...that falls to average XP/min which itself is already a factor of dungeon difficulty . If two dungeons are considered to be equal completion time, but one is a little harder then sure a small bump could be given to one, but it should still be based upon that most basic average completion time.

[~redspecter23-A]

Bad xp quests are bad for two reasons.

1. They're low xp. That's the obvious one.

2. If I'm running an xp pot, I don't want to waste time on low xp quests. My timer keeps ticking while I'm "wasting" my time in a quest with low xp. It's the reason I don't run challenges while I'm on an xp pot. I try and squeeze them in between pots, which is easier to do when the level range is 5 levels or more. If I have a 50% pot running, I'm not doing wilderness, challenges, cannith quests or anything that isn't remotely close to reasonable xp/min because my pot is timed. A quest might be good xp, but if it's bad xp/min I won't waste my xp pot timer in there.

"We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens."

I'll repeat what others have said already. Why not? Why not make new content that people want to run? You basically just said that you are making new content that you don't want people to run for any reason other than loot. We haven't seen the loot yet so it's hard to judge, but I'm having trouble visualizing level 17 loot that has a purpose outside of using for the massive grind from 18 - 20. Instead of giving me loot to make the 18 - 20 grind easier, maybe give me xp to make the grind easier?

[~Hexfax]

I'll repeat what others have said already. Why not? Why not make new content that people want to run? You basically just said that you are making new content that you don't want people to run for any reason other than loot. We haven't seen the loot yet so it's hard to judge, but I'm having trouble visualizing level 17 loot that has a purpose outside of using for the massive grind from 18 - 20. Instead of giving me loot to make the 18 - 20 grind easier, maybe give me xp to make the grind easier?

These quests are level 15, so there's a good chance that we aren't going to be getting level 17 loot. As Flavilandile pointed out, usually level 15 quests have level 12 loot.

However, if the Devs stick to the Web of Chaos design, the loot will be the same level as the normal run. If the Devs are sticking with the recent trend, we'll have three versions of the loot and only then will we be getting level 17 loot if it drops on Elite.

[Wizza]

You better put at least one unique/very rare clickie item in this update or every end-game players will skip this update altogheter. Me included.

Clickies that would be actually be worth something:

- +6 Psionic dex clickie (Titan's Grip-like, exclusive) (awesome when Dex-to-dmg enhancements go live)
- 3/day Freedom of movement clicky CL:10 (exclusive)
- 3/day Tenser's clicky CL:25 (exclusive)
- 1/day Immunity to curses clicky, 5min duration (exclusive)
- Another teleport/Greater teleport/Fire shield clickie NON-EXCLUSIVE.
- Another Deathward clickie with a better CL than 7.
- Another place where to farm Pirate treasure Map (+1 loot level to chests for 6 seconds)


Nothing of this will be added of course. But, just in case, it's here Devs.

[AzB]

You know how lvl 17 elite BB TR 2+ looks like?
Drink a XP pot
Litany E 9xH N
Missing E 9xH N
Sinister Storage E
Fear Factory E
Take 18.

Now ask me if I'd gladly run something else than litany and missing into the ground each life. Go on, I dare you!

Maybe that's the way you do it, but I rarely rerun anything while TR'ing. I might do something worth a lot of xp twice, or maybe a couple raids if a group is up at level while I happen to be around, but that's it.


That being said, I wouldn't mind more content in the level 15 range. There's not a lot there now and any variety would be nice.

[ericrd]

Maybe that's the way you do it, but I rarely rerun anything while TR'ing. I might do something worth a lot of xp twice, or maybe a couple raids if a group is up at level while I happen to be around, but that's it.


That being said, I wouldn't mind more content in the level 15 range. There's not a lot there now and any variety would be nice.

agreed the run the same quests over and over hamster wheel is a selfimposed limitation...some people play for fun and loot and xp is something that you get during that

many forumites post from the viewpoint of endgame is the goal and the quickest path to endgame

while alot of us just enjoy the ride and the shinys along the way

[QuantumFX]

We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens.

Why not? There is absolutely nothing wrong with having options available while leveling.\

Seriously guys, this is your problem. You’re so **** conservative with these XP base amounts that you create areas people don't want to run. And then you guys *NEVER* reevaluate these bad decisions.

[Cauthey_No_CCInfo]

Ironically, our code has safety checks for putting in values that are that "absurd."

Tell that to the Chattering Ring and Cannith Crafting.

[Kylstrem]

We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens.

Since you introduced the Bravery Bonus and Elite Streaks, people that are TRing or even running a first life toon ONLY do elite Streak/BB questing.

On almost every level EXCEPT level at level 17 (this is the level where most people run Level 15 quests on Elite for the streak), we have more than enough XP to get us capped 1 point short 2 levels above.

But we hit level 17 and we have very few choices for quests. Litany is there but you have to make sure you have all the sigil pieces which is still a huge grind especially if you need that frame piece from Inferno.

Acid Wit is just a beater of a quest. Long and tedious and XP is usually not worth it. My group skips it on some lives.

Delirium is also a quest that gets annoying especially for the XP you get.

Sinister Storage is boring and long with horrible XP
Fear Factory is a nice dungeon delve, but it does get boring quickly. And XP ain't great.

Missing is a star. It offers a fast path through it for those that want a fast path. Good quest for leveling and doing fast on E/H/N.

In the Flesh is a complete loss for BB/Elite streak. It is just about impossible to complete AT LEVEL on Elite. And it is way too long especially with the equivialent Sinister Storage thrown in the middle with wave-after-wave of mobs attacking you (please stop using this mechanic... NO ONE LIKES WAVE AFTER WAVE ATTACKS!)

So, out of the SEVEN current level 15 quests, only two of them are quests that people actually farm AT THAT LEVEL.

I think you can risk adding 3 more quests that people will add to their farming.

[danotmano1998]

Speaking to the addition of named loot to these quests, I'd like to clarify an often repeated sentiment..

Turbine often sets the necessary repetition of a quest in a way that by the time you can actually get an item you are farming for and is level appropriate, you are past that level and looking for something else.

This makes farming for loot a losing proposition unless you are doing it to get twink gear for your next life, or you enjoy farming for it's own sake.

IMO, a quest's repeat value (and real worth!) is it's xp when it's not epic.
Now epic loot, on the other hand, can retain it's viability for far longer than heroic loot.

[Antiguo]

Ironically, our code has safety checks for putting in values that are that "absurd."

Our final XP settings shouldn't be as low as what Cannith went out with for its level, but these dungeons won't be the highest XP dungeons you'll see at Lv 15. We don't want to make these the new things that everyone farms in the mid-teens.

However, some new named treasure is going into these dungeons. We're really excited about them, and they should make these dungeons worth running a few times to get a few of the best items. They'll be in the next time Lamannia is updated.

So it's fine to almost force us to farm missing and/or Litany but it wouldnt be fine to farm these?

Nosense.

[PurpleFooz]

Why not?
Wouldn't you want people to be foaming at the mouth to buy these for the great xp?
Honest question...

So looking at the current lvl 15 quests, that means the base xp for elite will be somewhere between 2,180 and 9,460.
That's a big gap!

Sure, fair question.
My comment was intended to say that we can't make every new update give our more XP than every previous update. That leads to endless XP inflation. Sure, any particular update where we gave out max XP/min would be greatly received, but that'd paint us into a corner for any future updates.
These dungeons will get average XP. We expect that players who are only after XP will run them 2-3 times.

To keep this in context, two of the quests are free, and all three are a prequel to the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion. I hope everyone understands why we're targeting the Shadowfell Conspiracy to give high XP, while these prequel quests will be average XP.

As for concerns about how Lv 15 treasure will be worth-while, at least one of the items cuts through any of the concerns everyone's presented. We believe it's powerful enough that you'll want to run the quests to get it. Please try to keep an open mind until the treasure list is released.

[Sokól]

You better put at least one unique/very rare clickie item in this update or every end-game players will skip this update altogheter. Me included.

Clickies that would be actually be worth something:

- +6 Psionic dex clickie (Titan's Grip-like, exclusive) (awesome when Dex-to-dmg enhancements go live)
- 3/day Freedom of movement clicky CL:10 (exclusive)
- 3/day Tenser's clicky CL:25 (exclusive)
- 1/day Immunity to curses clicky, 5min duration (exclusive)
- Another teleport/Greater teleport/Fire shield clickie NON-EXCLUSIVE.
- Another Deathward clickie with a better CL than 7.
- Another place where to farm Pirate treasure Map (+1 loot level to chests for 6 seconds)


Nothing of this will be added of course. But, just in case, it's here Devs.

My gut feeling tells me they are adding a Tenser´s clickie.

[oradafu]

Sure, fair question.
My comment was intended to say that we can't make every new update give our more XP than every previous update. That leads to endless XP inflation. Sure, any particular update where we gave out max XP/min would be greatly received, but that'd paint us into a corner for any future updates.
These dungeons will get average XP. We expect that players who are only after XP will run them 2-3 times.

To keep this in context, two of the quests are free, and all three are a prequel to the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion. I hope everyone understands why we're targeting the Shadowfell Conspiracy to give high XP, while these prequel quests will be average XP.

As for concerns about how Lv 15 treasure will be worth-while, at least one of the items cuts through any of the concerns everyone's presented. We believe it's powerful enough that you'll want to run the quests to get it. Please try to keep an open mind until the treasure list is released.

Concerning the XP, you've already made a problem with inflated XP since the introduction of levels 21-25. It's been pointed out several times that prior to these levels, the XP for the Heroic end game were artificial kept low to extend the end game prior to MOTU. Since MOTU was introduced, the XP is just plain horrible for the last few Heroic levels compared to any Epic quest.

Because of this there is a double edge segregation between upper heroic players and early epic players. No one but the most friendly or completely naive Epic player is going to run quests that level 18 and 19 characters can enter. The XP is that bad compared to the Epic XP. These upper Heroic players would give anything to enter the early Epic quests just for XP, since the XP is that good in those quests.

There's no reason to extend the playing time for upper Heroic levels, since additional Epic levels were introduced and now extended. There's been a nerfing of the XP from the Challenges that did help in these levels (along with the ED grind). But the Devs never balanced out the XP when the level cap was lifted for Amarth and House C quests, along with several other quests in this level range. In fact, the Devs continue to suppress the XP in these areas with any new quests introduced. Most notably would be the two heroic MOTU side quests.

I've mentioned several times before, if the XP for the upper heroics were better, there would be a reason for early Epic players to extend their stay those quests before jumping on the better XP gravy train of plain old Epics. This would help give a bit more life in many of these quests that are just plain dead (House C) or ran mostly once for favor now and done (Amarth). And its not like the two packs are full of easy short quests. Some of these quests are as hard or arguably harder than Epic quests. And most of them take longer to run than many of the Epic quests in the game.

As for the items, I'll reserve my opinion on them until they are revealed.

[danotmano1998]

Sure, fair question.
My comment was intended to say that we can't make every new update give our more XP than every previous update. That leads to endless XP inflation. Sure, any particular update where we gave out max XP/min would be greatly received, but that'd paint us into a corner for any future updates.
These dungeons will get average XP. We expect that players who are only after XP will run them 2-3 times.

To keep this in context, two of the quests are free, and all three are a prequel to the Shadowfell Conspiracy expansion. I hope everyone understands why we're targeting the Shadowfell Conspiracy to give high XP, while these prequel quests will be average XP.

As for concerns about how Lv 15 treasure will be worth-while, at least one of the items cuts through any of the concerns everyone's presented. We believe it's powerful enough that you'll want to run the quests to get it. Please try to keep an open mind until the treasure list is released.

That's a fair enough answer, thanks for posting!

Poster above me has an excellent point. Why the 17-19 quests have but a pittance of the 20+ epic quests xp?
Shouldn't this be a smoother progression? These are the levels that a TR get nailed in the xp department.

This is one of the biggest reasons that I feel the xp scale in DDO is awry. There's an artificial thinning of xp just as the requirements skyrocket. There wouldn't be any issues of xp creep.

Average base xp of lvl 19 quests: 5K-ish.
Average base xp of lvl 20 quests: 13K-ish
Average base xp of lvl 21 quests: 17K-ish

See the problem?