An Answer for the Capstone Issue

[Paisheng]

Almost everybody agrees that pure characters are getting nerfed on capstones. Getting a couple attribute points and some tinsel abilities does not compare with multi-characters who will receive whole other tree(s) of enhancements to work with not to mention that they also get tons more ablities and feats just for multi-classing. Several more feats (both innate and granted usually at level 1) more than outweighs waiting til level 20 to get what amounts essentially to a couple feats. So here is my suggestion: make the capstone only 30 points instead of 40. So it would go 0 5 10 15 20 30 required points respectively. Level requirements could remain as they are 1, 2, 6, 12, 18 and 20. This would allow a pure character, if he/she so chooses to actually use points in their trees wisely to get two capstones instead of one. They could essentially reach 2 of the 3 character trees in completion (64 points spent) and still have a dozen points left to work a little in the third tree or on the racial tree. This would result in 4 attribute points coupled with small benefits given at the capstones. To me this seems balanced for the incredible diversity and number of feats and other beneifits granted for multi-classing. What do others think?

[~Blacksoft]

Assuming that the core class enhancements at the bottom are going to be granted automatically based on points spent in tree,

I think that pure classes are coming out ahead in regards to being capable of obtaining 2 capstones as well as 2 level 18 and 12 core class enhanements.

Example: level 20 ranger

spending 40 points in tempest and 40 in arcane archer gets you 5% doublestrike and 25% doublestrike in offhand as well as potential 15% extra arrows. Getting both of these core enhancements means that pure rangers will pull ahead in every other class split in regards to faster attack in MELEE and in RANGE.

There are benefits to going pure - getting 2 full lines of core enhancement in the class trees

[Satyriasys]

I think you are still limited to one

[soulaeon]

Part of the issue is that these are heroic enhancements, and I am just hoping that Turbine is also seeing it that way as their reasons for nerfing them. Heroic levels are 1 to 19, or even 1 to 20 for some stuff. The changes would still be perfectly suitable for that range.
What needs to happen is a substantial increase to spell damage or spell critical chance from Epic Destinies. That way, players are more balanced while leveling, and then receive their respective damage boost while leveling after 19.
I also agree that the new capstone does appear lackluster, being as increases to spell levels are useless to most of our spells. And your suggestion to lower the AP spent to invest in the capstone sounds good, as long as the level restriction is still 20. I still have not yet seen the new enhancements directly so can not comment on the actual costs, but the concept you suggest is a good one.
One should also note this is a symptom of another big issue that needs to be addressed. Spell augmentation is severely broken because most of our spells are not effected.

[Silverleafeon]

If we could have a tier 6 twist someday, then Evasion could be twisted from the druid epic destiny.

[Moonsickle]

Almost everybody agrees that pure characters are getting nerfed on capstones. Getting a couple attribute points and some tinsel abilities does not compare with multi-characters who will receive whole other tree(s) of enhancements to work with not to mention that they also get tons more ablities and feats just for multi-classing. Several more feats (both innate and granted usually at level 1) more than outweighs waiting til level 20 to get what amounts essentially to a couple feats. So here is my suggestion: make the capstone only 30 points instead of 40. So it would go 0 5 10 15 20 30 required points respectively. Level requirements could remain as they are 1, 2, 6, 12, 18 and 20. This would allow a pure character, if he/she so chooses to actually use points in their trees wisely to get two capstones instead of one. They could essentially reach 2 of the 3 character trees in completion (64 points spent) and still have a dozen points left to work a little in the third tree or on the racial tree. This would result in 4 attribute points coupled with small benefits given at the capstones. To me this seems balanced for the incredible diversity and number of feats and other beneifits granted for multi-classing. What do others think?

I ABSOLUTELY disagree pure characters are getting nerfed on capstones, actually quite the opposite of what you say...


only way to get a capstone is to go pure




For Rogue capstones:

Assassin - Deadly Shadow: +2 INT, +4d6 to sneak attack

Mechanic - Master Alchemist: Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

Acrobat - Followthrough: You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.


all require 20 levels of Rogue... even if you had 19 Rogue / 1 anything else... no capstone in any of those prestige.


By your method requiring only 30AP would allow a pure Rogue 2 prestige capstones while multi-class rogues would get zero...

which would be a horrible change as then who would even think about a multi-class character?





Nothing changed in needing 20 levels of a class to get a capstone except the path you are FORCED spend your points to get there

and that there are up to 3 choices of capstones per class.

[eachna_gislin]

I ABSOLUTELY disagree pure characters are getting nerfed on capstones, actually quite the opposite of what you say...


only way to get a capstone is to go pure




For Rogue capstones:

Assassin - Deadly Shadow: +2 INT, +4d6 to sneak attack

Mechanic - Master Alchemist: Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

Acrobat - Followthrough: You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.


all require 20 levels of Rogue... even if you had 19 Rogue / 1 anything else... no capstone in any of those prestige.


By your method requiring only 30AP would allow a pure Rogue 2 prestige capstones while multi-class rogues would get zero...

which would be a horrible change as then who would even think about a multi-class character?





Nothing changed in needing 20 levels of a class to get a capstone except the path you are FORCED spend your points to get there

and that there are up to 3 choices of capstones per class.

I think you misunderstood Paisheng's point.

The powers granted by individual capstones are not balanced against the benefits gained from splashing.

Splash monk 2 - stances, 2 feats, evasion.

Splash rogue 2 - trapping skills, evasion

Splash paladin 2 - melee weapon and armor profs, Charisma boost to saves, divine spells via wand/scroll

And so on. There are plenty of 1 level class splashes and other good 2 level splashes. Because the way abilities in classes are front loaded, a player "gets" more for multi-classing than going pure.

The point to a capstone is to give you some reward or power boost for having stayed pure. In that sense they're failing because there's less and less reason to take capstones.

There's an occasional stand-out capstone that's good enough to make people think before they multiclass. But most just aren't worth giving up the added power you get from splashing.

When they were introduced, quite a few capstones were more useful than they are now (based on how the game has changed over time). And, other capstones being revealed in the enhancement pass are too weak to be tempting. So yes, the capstones are nerfed.

Even if you can only take them if you're playing a pure class, they've been nerfed.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think you misunderstood Paisheng's point.

The powers granted by individual capstones are not balanced against the benefits gained from splashing.

Splash monk 2 - stances, 2 feats, evasion.

Splash rogue 2 - trapping skills, evasion

Splash paladin 2 - melee weapon and armor profs, Charisma boost to saves, divine spells via wand/scroll

And so on. There are plenty of 1 level class splashes and other good 2 level splashes. Because the way abilities in classes are front loaded, a player "gets" more for multi-classing than going pure.

The point to a capstone is to give you some reward or power boost for having stayed pure. In that sense they're failing because there's less and less reason to take capstones.

There's an occasional stand-out capstone that's good enough to make people think before they multiclass. But most just aren't worth giving up the added power you get from splashing.

When they were introduced, quite a few capstones were more useful than they are now (based on how the game has changed over time). And, other capstones being revealed in the enhancement pass are too weak to be tempting. So yes, the capstones are nerfed.

Even if you can only take them if you're playing a pure class, they've been nerfed.

MANY of the capstones are worth more than 2 feats, saves bonuses, etc.

Here are some:
Arcane Archer: +2 DEX and +10% Extra Shot Chance with main imbue stances lasting 30s after being switched off
Dervish: +2 DEX and +25% Doublestrike with off-hand
Battle Engineer: +2 INT, +1 Enhancement to both main-weapon and armor, all main-weapons are implements (useful for DPS weapon with other items giving you spellpower)
Arcanotechnician: +2 INT, +5 Spellcraft, increase spells from non-scroll items to your caster level
Spellsinger: +2 CHA, +10 USP, gain Heal and Wail of the Banshee as level 6 spells
Angel of Vengeance: +2 CHA, +2 to certain skills, free SLA based on religion
Kensei: +11% doublestrike (10% from itself and 1% from Strike with No Thought)
Henshin Mystic: +2 WIS, +10 Concentration, +1 passive Ki regeneration
Savants: +2 CHA, turn into an elemental giving various bonuses
Pale Master: +2 INT, +5% more Negative Energy Healing
Archmage: +2 INT, +5 Spellcraft, all metamagics cost -1 point to use (Heighten costs 4 points per tier of heightening)
Assassin: +2 INT, +4d6 SA damage
Knight of the Chalice: +2 CHA, all weapons are Good, +1d6 vs Evil, +2d6 vs EOs and Undead


For many of those I can see tons of reasons to take them. Most of them give benefits that cannot be gained from any other means. Granted, there are a few weak ones (like Sacred Defender), but for the most part staying pure is still a good, viable option. There are only a few cases where multiclassing is "required" (melee Druid for one), but there isn't "less and less reason to stay pure" as you claim. The main reason I can see you wouldn't want to stay pure for the capstone would be for TRing right after you reach cap.

[TrinityTurtle]

MANY of the capstones are worth more than 2 feats, saves bonuses, etc.

Here are some:
Arcane Archer: +2 DEX and +10% Extra Shot Chance with main imbue stances lasting 30s after being switched off
Dervish: +2 DEX and +25% Doublestrike with off-hand
Battle Engineer: +2 INT, +1 Enhancement to both main-weapon and armor, all main-weapons are implements (useful for DPS weapon with other items giving you spellpower)
Arcanotechnician: +2 INT, +5 Spellcraft, increase spells from non-scroll items to your caster level
Spellsinger: +2 CHA, +10 USP, gain Heal and Wail of the Banshee as level 6 spells
Angel of Vengeance: +2 CHA, +2 to certain skills, free SLA based on religion
Kensei: +11% doublestrike (10% from itself and 1% from Strike with No Thought)
Henshin Mystic: +2 WIS, +10 Concentration, +1 passive Ki regeneration
Savants: +2 CHA, turn into an elemental giving various bonuses
Pale Master: +2 INT, +5% more Negative Energy Healing
Archmage: +2 INT, +5 Spellcraft, all metamagics cost -1 point to use (Heighten costs 4 points per tier of heightening)
Assassin: +2 INT, +4d6 SA damage
Knight of the Chalice: +2 CHA, all weapons are Good, +1d6 vs Evil, +2d6 vs EOs and Undead

WHile those are all great things, those are not capstones. All of those abilities can be taken on splash characters as long as they have the required number of main class levels. Capstones can only be taken on characters that have 20 levels of the same class. See the link below to see what they are, and some are better than others.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Capstone

[AylinIsAwesome]

WHile those are all great things, those are not capstones. All of those abilities can be taken on splash characters as long as they have the required number of main class levels. Capstones can only be taken on characters that have 20 levels of the same class. See the link below to see what they are, and some are better than others.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Capstone

The ones I listed are the new capstones for the coming enhancement pass. All of the ones I posted require 20 levels in class and 40 AP spent in the appropriate tree at this moment. I felt no reason to address the current capstones since this is a forum about the new system.

[TrinityTurtle]

LOL Epic reading fail, I don't go forum by forum, I use the new posts thing and missed that it was for Lammie. I 'fess up!